(Topic ID: 52131)

WOZ - Behind the Curtain

By stangbat

10 years ago


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  • Latest reply 10 years ago by Joe_Blasi
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There are 219 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 5.
#151 10 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

Commercial Linux and the motherboards available when it arrived in 1993 are fundamentally unchanged 20 years later (Holy shit 1993 was 20 years ago.. i'm going to puke). Other than things getting smaller/faster the general premise will remain the same. Modularity is key.

I actually didn't realise it was just running as linux based, to be honest I haven't looked into it's real specs only was commenting on peoples arguments on the hardware failing. If it isn't keyed to any specific specifications or parts then yeah it's totally modular and if you can just throw in a new part so long as it can handle the output then your right I don't see how it'll have any issues in the future. I was assuming it had some proprietary or features built to need a certain motherboard model. I was wrong I guess. Serves me right posting in a thread without reading it all

#152 10 years ago

Jim,

I might as well reply to this one because it falls in my lap as thats my role at JJP.

Done

The software is abstracted from the OS. There are kernel modules but nothing that has a specific ABI requirement so it will work on kernels from 2.4.24_x86_64 to 3.0.1+. I know I tested it.

The JJP software less a few required opensource modules which you can get from an LDD list of the game binary is self contained in a single directory.

We aren't in any way tied to the current OS. I could run it on rhel3_64 if we wanted too. I have already taken all this into consideration. We are using the OS for everything related to driving all non JJP hardware. The video/sound are all native opensource drivers. There is NO reason to use proprietary or fixed modules for cots hardware. That would kill the support model entirely.

Have I created a specific install for "Any motherboard"? Not at this time and as WoZ reaches its lifecycle end and assuming hobbit isn't using the same/compatible board then I will probably do something to that nature but it wouldn't be all that difficult for someone else with some linux chops to do it

Everything was considered for the longevity of the platform.

P.S. I'm an upstream maintainer and RT / kernel bypass developer so this is right in my wheelhouse

#153 10 years ago
Quoted from pinmanguy:

I actually didn't realise it was just running as linux based, to be honest I haven't looked into it's real specs only was commenting on peoples arguments on the hardware failing. If it isn't keyed to any specific specifications or parts then yeah it's totally modular and if you can just throw in a new part so long as it can handle the output then your right I don't see how it'll have any issues in the future. I was assuming it had some proprietary or features built to need a certain motherboard model. I was wrong I guess. Serves me right posting in a thread without reading it all

No problem at all it's completely commercial off the shelf PC hardware. No tricks.

#154 10 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

What did you do before you were able to repair your own stuff ? Learn ?
We are constantly learning how to take better care of our games.
Time to learn surface mounted things too. And get some different equipment if we don't already have it to do the repairs.
LTG : )

Sounds like an opportunity for a seminar at Expo!! I know the 'Soldering 101' seminar never got on the schedule, but maybe this year? I can mention it to Pacak.

#155 10 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

Jim,

I might as well reply to this one because it falls in my lap as thats my role at JJP.

Done

The software is abstracted from the OS. There are kernel modules but nothing that has a specific ABI requirement so it will work on kernels from 2.4.24_x86_64 to 3.0.1+. I know I tested it.

The JJP software less a few required opensource modules which you can get from an LDD list of the game binary is self contained in a single directory.

We aren't in any way tied to the current OS. I could run it on rhel3_64 if we wanted too. I have already taken all this into consideration. We are using the OS for everything related to driving all non JJP hardware. The video/sound are all native opensource drivers. There is NO reason to use proprietary or fixed modules for cots hardware. That would kill the support model entirely.

Have I created a specific install for "Any motherboard"? Not at this time and as WoZ reaches its lifecycle end and assuming hobbit isn't using the same/compatible board then I will probably do something to that nature but it wouldn't be all that difficult for someone else with some linux chops to do it

Everything was considered for the longevity of the platform.

P.S. I'm an upstream maintainer and RT / kernel bypass developer so this is right in my wheelhouse

At the base line it should work on any intel chipset board being sold right and any AMD / ATI chipset being sold right. But at least it should work on both a amd cpu setup and an intel cpu setup.

Sound chips should be coved at least the big on board ones.

The big thing is don't put in mac os hardware locks where the kernel and os drivers need to hacked to use non apple hardware (even ones with the same chip set familyl.) as well other locks you don't see in windows or Linux.

the KNOPPIX boot images run on a lot of hardware.

#156 10 years ago
Quoted from Homepin:

I hope all buyers are pleased with the machine but keep in mind this may be the most nonsensical post you will read today.

Fixed.

#157 10 years ago

Ideally there should be a full code install that does not come tied with the base os. A os + game code reinstall image may be ok to have as well but not as the only way.
But down the road base os and game code / pinball os should be split up. so if you say need run newer os or parts of the os for newer hardware a game code install / update does not try to install older os parts on top of new one.

You don't want to have something like dll hell.

And you want way to recover if say some needs to a clean install / install on to an blank hdd / sdd / flash / ect.

#158 10 years ago
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

At the base line it should work on any intel chipset board being sold right and any AMD / ATI chipset being sold right. But at least it should work on both a amd cpu setup and an intel cpu setup.
Sound chips should be coved at least the big on board ones.
The big thing is don't put in mac os hardware locks where the kernel and os drivers need to hacked to use non apple hardware (even ones with the same chip set familyl.) as well other locks you don't see in windows or Linux.
the KNOPPIX boot images run on a lot of hardware.

Thats exactly what it does. Works with any hardware/processor combination as well as video.

We have 3 different motherboards. An intel atom and 2 MSI's. The production games ship with the latest MSI. I haven't changed a single aspect of the OS to support the boards. It just does because the underlying driver stack supports all COTS hardware. If ubuntu supports the motherboard/video and the onboard video card isn't crap. We support it

#159 10 years ago

All your WoZ updates are just an apt-get away!

#160 10 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

Similar connectors are used in the automotive industry. Automobiles are subjected to far more vibrations than a pinball machine, and out of their 100s of connectors, it's rare for one to fail due to vibration. The usual cause of failure is exposure to moisture, leading to corrosion.

In modern autos? The only recollection I have of these blade connectors in cars of the last 20+ years is
1) after market stereo mods
2) lamps - which usually have boots supporting the thing too

Most I've seen are the booted type where they are inside a sleeve for the environmental protection, but that also acts as a secondary securing of the connector.

There is also a big difference between the shaking of a car, and the direct metal on metal impact of a plunger on a stop just an inch away. I mean.. they solder wires in autos too and don't have a problem with the wires breaking off.. yet it's common in pins for wires or joints to fail due to the environment.

#161 10 years ago
Quoted from Compy:

All your WoZ updates are just an apt-get away!

That's not far from the truth with internet updates. Not using apt-get but you are getting warm

#162 10 years ago

hmm I wonder if they are using SDL and GLUT or SFML... anyway tis moot.

#163 10 years ago

C'mon Alex, you gonna make me take nerdy stabs at it?

Well geesh.

Cool stuff. I always like the geek outs in your posts

#164 10 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

That's not far from the truth with internet updates. Not using apt-get but you are getting warm

will base os updates be done? Just game updates / game os? Auto updates on it's own? will updates wipe game settings / scores?

Will they be a fall back if it fails mid update? You want the game to be updating when a game gets a hard power down.

Arcades like to games on brakes for on / off. And with pinball people are used to hard on / off for pinballs.

Also power can fail at any time.

-1
#165 10 years ago

Guys ... Less Poindexter & More Pinball

#166 10 years ago
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

will base os updates be done? Just game updates / game os? Auto updates on it's own? will updates wipe game settings / scores?
Will they be a fall back if it fails mid update? You want the game to be updating when a game gets a hard power down.
Arcades like to games on brakes for on / off. And with pinball people are used to hard on / off for pinballs.
Also power can fail at any time.

base OS updates are done by me and packaged. It's not enabled in the prod games. I keep a specific package set as its tested and proven. Using random updates from the upstream have unintended consequences.

Power failures have no effect. I wrote so many cleanup items into the boot. You won't have any worries on that front. I turned the game on/off 1000 times as part of the beta testing.

#167 10 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

In modern autos?

I take it you're not familiar with over the road diesel trucks...

But even still, they're extremely common on arcade machines (yes, I know, no pinball vibrations), and many times it has taken a lot of force using needle nose pliers to pull them off.

#168 10 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

I take it you're not familiar with over the road diesel trucks...

Hell my benz has nothing but spade connectors everywhere under the dash. A few molex style connectors but ton's of spades everywhere.

Granted its a rolling piece of crap but not because the connectors come off

#169 10 years ago

There is no hidden root passwords or other stuff like that so down the road if some needs to install os updates and or an updated kernel for say an new system board that will not get in the way.

#170 10 years ago
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

There is no hidden root passwords or other stuff like that so down the road if some needs to install os updates and or an updated kernel for say an new system board that will not get in the way.

I'm not sure what you mean? Root passwords won't be provided. If someone years from now wants to run an updated OS for whatever reason they will be installing that themselves and setting their own password. We won't be providing the root pass to anyone. It will also change with each release for good measure.

-1
#171 10 years ago
Quoted from Homepin:

It is my experience to date that ANY commercial product that has been based on a PC has been a monumental failure and a major headache to keep operational.

With all due respect, that doesn't say much for your "experience" because there are litterally tens of thousands of products based on a PC that have been tremendous successes.

Seriously. Who are you?

Quoted from Homepin:

I hope all buyers are pleased with the machine but keep in mind it is basically a virtual pinball with a playfield added.

Seriously. Who are you? Your arguments really don't make sense. A virtual pinball with a playfield added? Are you kidding? It's a pinball machine with the OS operating from a microprocessor, just like every other pinball machine built since the 1980s!

#172 10 years ago
Quoted from PinballHelp:

Seriously. Who are you?

I'm not going to bother answering this - maybe you will find out soon enough!

#173 10 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

I'm not sure what you mean? Root passwords won't be provided. If someone years from now wants to run an updated OS for whatever reason they will be installing that themselves and setting their own password. We won't be providing the root pass to anyone. It will also change with each release for good measure.

Down the road will you be able to install the game code without having to install your base OS load.

Getting at we will not tied to your os that may have passwords or other stuff that stop you from installing the needed updates to get that base os load to run on replacement pc parts.

#174 10 years ago
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

Down the road will you be able to install the game code without having to install your base OS load.
Getting at we will not tied to your os that may have passwords or other stuff that stop you from installing the needed updates to get that base os load to run on replacement pc parts.

That's the plan. Game load separate from OS. But only at the end of the games life cycle. Not during.

#175 10 years ago
Quoted from Homepin:

I'm not going to bother answering this - maybe you will find out soon enough!

Certainly not someone who works for intel or has even miniscule exposure to modern x86 components.

Hope you aren't flying qantas off Australia. Their airbus run x86_64 Linux for their avionics.

Hell at least it ain't windows. In that case the D in BSOD would actually be true.

#176 10 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

Certainly not someone who works for intel or has even miniscule exposure to modern x86 components.
Hope you aren't flying qantas off Australia. Their airbus run x86_64 Linux for their avionics.
Hell at least it ain't windows. In that case the D in BSOD would actually be true.

Just because I disagree with your viewpoint doesn't make me stupid and it doesn't make you stupid either. Perhaps I have a vastly different electronics background to you?

I have been on two Airbus flights now where the "super reliable" Linux running the passenger services has constantly rebooted so God help us when the Avionics does that.......

#177 10 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

That's the plan. Game load separate from OS. But only at the end of the games life cycle. Not during.

good idea there should also be an out of business plan like what valve have said if they go out of business they make so can play there games with needing to link the steam servers.

#178 10 years ago
Quoted from Homepin:

I have been on two Airbus flights now where the "super reliable" Linux running the passenger services has constantly rebooted so God help us when the Avionics does that.......

Avionics and other systems like have lot's of QA and code review work done of them by laws and faa rules. much more then with the seatback stuff.

#179 10 years ago
Quoted from Homepin:

Just because I disagree with your viewpoint doesn't make me stupid

No, but saying this:

It is my experience to date that ANY commercial product that has been based on a PC has been a monumental failure and a major headache to keep operational.

doesn't give you any credibility. PCs themselves run virtually everything. If you want to criticize particular software systems, you might have more/less a point. But there are a ton of things running on PCs that run very reliably. I have servers that have been running continuously for almost 20 years. I've got software running on PCs everywhere from Disney World to oil rigs in the middle east that are 100% reliable. The server that runs this and almost every web site on the Internet is PC-based. I don't see any "monumental failures."

Pinball 2000 is PC-based and I don't recall any "monumental failures" with that system, which is now 14 years old.

#180 10 years ago
Quoted from PinballHelp:

Pinball 2000 is PC-based and I don't recall any "monumental failures" with that system, which is now 14 years old.

Pinball 2000 is a major disaster for those that have limited PC experience. I know of many of them sitting in sheds gathering dust. Nu-core saved many but far from all. This is my point - PCs are NOT hobbyist friendly.

You are obviously a PC guru and expert - most people ARE NOT.

#181 10 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

Certainly not someone who works for intel or has even miniscule exposure to modern x86 components.
Hope you aren't flying qantas off Australia. Their airbus run x86_64 Linux for their avionics.
Hell at least it ain't windows. In that case the D in BSOD would actually be true.

I worked for Rockwell Collins for awhile. I am truly amazed that there are not more avionics system failures thanks to their methodologies. Fortunately, the manufacturing operations are top-notch. When you see a "NOT FOR FLIGHT" flourescent sticker on something; heed it.

#182 10 years ago
Quoted from Homepin:

Pinball 2000 is a major disaster for those that have limited PC experience. I know of many of them sitting in sheds gathering dust. Nu-core saved many but far from all. This is my point - PCs are NOT hobbyist friendly.
You are obviously a PC guru and expert - most people ARE NOT.

You obviously don't know much about pin2k do you? It wasn't the PC that caused the failures. It was the prism card and the hacks needed to get it running. It wasn't truly a "PC" based system. And the fact that you are equating a 15 year old platform to platforms of today removes whatever credibility you did have left.

You also give the home user no credit. I have seen users with proper instruction do just about anything. People are significantly more tech savvy than you make thing especially people in this hobby.

Ending this argument because its ridiculous.

#183 10 years ago
Quoted from Homepin:

Just because I disagree with your viewpoint doesn't make me stupid and it doesn't make you stupid either. Perhaps I have a vastly different electronics background to you?
I have been on two Airbus flights now where the "super reliable" Linux running the passenger services has constantly rebooted so God help us when the Avionics does that.......

Ummm, Are you sure it is the Linux? Could be hardware, software, wiring, or it also depends when things reboot. Aircraft have different bus systems, using ac and inverters, or dc. When there are problems in the bus system, or when they swap bus systems, this also sometimes turns things off in the aircraft, which causes reboots. Did you do the troubleshooting of the aircraft system yourself, or are you guessing. We call people who guess at troubleshooting, box changers.
I've seen too many people guess in the 31 years I've been with an aerospace firm.

#184 10 years ago
Quoted from Hitch9:

Ummm, Are you sure it is the Linux? Could be hardware, software, wiring, or it also depends when things reboot. Aircraft have different bus systems, using ac and inverters, or dc. When there are problems in the bus system, or when they swap bus systems, this also sometimes turns things off in the aircraft, which causes reboots. Did you do the troubleshooting of the aircraft system yourself, or are you guessing. We call people who guess at troubleshooting, box changers.
I've seen too many people guess in the 31 years I've been with an aerospace firm.

This is entirely my point - a PC based system is not reliable enough for this application. I couldn't care less EXACTLY what causes the reboot the simple fact is IT DIDN'T WORK!

#185 10 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

You obviously don't know much about pin2k do you? It wasn't the PC that caused the failures. It was the prism card and the hacks needed to get it running. It wasn't truly a "PC" based system. And the fact that you are equating a 15 year old platform to platforms of today removes whatever credibility you did have left.
You also give the home user no credit. I have seen users with proper instruction do just about anything. People are significantly more tech savvy than you make thing especially people in this hobby.
Ending this argument because its ridiculous.

You are clearly living in Lala land - or maybe the land of Oz.........you are missing my point entirely.

#186 10 years ago
Quoted from Homepin:

This is entirely my point - a PC based system is not reliable enough for this application. I couldn't care less EXACTLY what causes the reboot the simple fact is IT DIDN'T WORK!

?!?

I've never seen a Stern or Bally or WMS or <insert any game maker here> reboot. Oh wait I have.

PC running Linux is plenty reliable to base a pinball machine on. Obsolescence of the PC platform was a more understandable argument (they have a good broad outline of a plan to deal with this), but not reliability or stability!

#187 10 years ago
Quoted from Homepin:

This is entirely my point - a PC based system is not reliable enough for this application. I couldn't care less EXACTLY what causes the reboot the simple fact is IT DIDN'T WORK!

And... your stance is that embedded systems never have problems, ever, for any reason?

Tell that to my Scientific Atlanta cable boxes that every other week either lock up or get so messed up the plug has to be manually pulled in the back.

Tell that to the Philips TV I'm watching right now that once a week for no reason decides it's not going to lock onto a HDMI input whatsoever and has to have the plug pulled.

Tell that to the Marantz A/V receiver I have downstairs that every other day decides it's not going to give me audio on a particular input and has to be turned on/off to restore operation.

Tell that to the Sony HDTV receiver I have that in the middle of operation, will suddenly go unresponsive to all commands for between 10 and 30 minutes (you can wait it out, or pull the plug).

Oh, and don't go blaming crappy software - you just said you don't care what causes a problem, just that "it didn't work" and therefore the specific hardware platform must be to blame.

It's ALL HARDWARE man! Assemblies of chips and resistors and capacitors and such. The name you slap on a particular arrangement of parts is utterly meaningless; what matters is how it was designed and built.

Quoted from Homepin:

You are clearly living in Lala land - or maybe the land of Oz.........you are missing my point entirely.

Says someone who actually IS in Oz...

#188 10 years ago
Quoted from heckheck:

I've never seen a Stern or Bally or WMS or <insert any game maker here> reboot. Oh wait I have.

I think there a few game that had some code bugs that made them reboot. But in pinball that has more to do with voltage drops due to failing parts or too many games on the same circuit.

#189 10 years ago
Quoted from Homepin:

This is entirely my point - a PC based system is not reliable enough for this application. I couldn't care less EXACTLY what causes the reboot the simple fact is IT DIDN'T WORK!

Ok..you are trying to make a point, with no point. You don't get it. It could be wiring, or the bus system, which has nothing to do with the pc or software. Even if it is code, it has nothing to do with the hardware, or the baseline Linux code. It still makes it a reliable PC system. The fact that you say you don't care what causes the problem, means the logic isn't there. That's like saying cars are unreliable because they crash. You don't care that the crash was caused by a drunk driver, all you care about was that it crashed, so therefore cars are unreliable. Somebody get me an aspirin. Better yet, somebody give Homepin an aspirin. You need it more than me.

#190 10 years ago
Quoted from Sunfox:

Tell that to my Scientific Atlanta cable boxes that every other week either lock up or get so messed up the plug has to be manually pulled in the back.

I used to have one that at times going though the guide to fast made it reboot.

At least the directv boxes have a reset button also they don't seem to lock up as much as the cable boxes.

#191 10 years ago
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

I used to have one that at times going though the guide to fast made it reboot.

At least the directv boxes have a reset button also they don't seem to lock up as much as the cable boxes.

That's more a problem of the software written on top of the OS. You can panic any kernel if you are an idiot programmer.

Windows can be ultra stable too if you never install 3rd party software and drivers.

#192 10 years ago
Quoted from Homepin:

You are clearly living in Lala land - or maybe the land of Oz.........you are missing my point entirely.

So apparently is everyone else. Ill go with the consensus here that we aren't wrong and the single person viewpoint is.

Ill tell you what, ill hot glue the processor and memory on to the motherboard and switch to a NAND flash chip for storage. Does that now qualify as embedded? Because that's all the existing "embedded" things you mention are. A processor/mpu. Ram and rom.

Wow this is easily the dumbest conversation about hardware I have ever encountered. I feel like I'm doing tech support for an AOL user.

#193 10 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

I feel like I'm doing tech support for an AOL user.

LOL

#194 10 years ago

Hello alex,
is that you will know when the next update of the code?

#195 10 years ago
Quoted from sebseb12:

Hello alex,
is that you will know when the next update of the code?

Hey Seb,

No specific date on next version. I will keep everyone posted when its imminent.

#196 10 years ago
Quoted from Homepin:

You are clearly living in Lala land - or maybe the land of Oz.........you are missing my point entirely.

From what I can see your entire point is you don't like how they did the system in WOZ. Got it, thanks.

#197 10 years ago

I just read through all of this and I feel like I have lost my binaries! Must be an issue with IP encapsulation and my aging frame relay...

#198 10 years ago
Quoted from shanetastic:

I just read through all of this and I feel like I have lost my binaries! Must be an issue with IP encapsulation and my aging frame relay...

BEACONING!!!!

#199 10 years ago

I think it's really bad that the metal apron is just plain black underneath the wooden topper. I remember way back when the topper was revealed and some people including myself weren't particularly impressed with all the signatures. I'm pretty sure lots of people (I think Jack included) said we could just remove the toppers and hang them on a wall or something and there was a normal apron underneath. Well, I'm sorry but that is not a 'normal' apron. It's totally blank and looks pretty awful so I reckon removing the apron isn't really an option after all. Why on earth they couldn't have put some designs on there either the same or similar to the standard I have no idea. JJP should send out some stickers. I think they're just stickers on the standard right?

For balance I think the build quality looks generally great in this report and I especially like that ball lock to stop the balls falling out when you raise the PF.

#200 10 years ago

I think the original idea was that the wooden topper would just sit on top of the metal one. Well, I guess they learned that if you do that, it falls off and otherwise moves around. So, now it's screwed on, so the former idea of having decals between the two pieces was pointless (plus there's holes for the screws). I'm sure you could buy a standard metal apron as an add-on if you really don't want the wood on your machine.

And I'm not sure... but did I read somewhere that the standard apron is printed directly on the metal now?

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