Fewer Emeralds to be built than Rubies. And one can ALWAYS buy all four of the toys, as well as the topper, for their Emerald to look like a Ruby (except body armor). And the Ruby costs more. If you preordered AT ALL, even if you buy the topper separately, you come out ahead, by a lot.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm telling you.

Heck of a lot easier to get an ECLEWOZ to a 75LEWOZ than, for example, to get a LOTR to a LELOTR.

And even the 75LEWOZ has to purchase Invisiglass in order to get to what ECLEWOZ users got for less money to boot.

So, yes, I am unambiguously telling you I genuinely feel it is no big deal. That ECLEWOZ users got nearly as much on the playfield, PLUS Invisiglass, on a MORE limited edition than 75LEWOZ purchaser for less money to boot. AND the ECLEWOZ owners can even purchase separately the four little playfield toys and new topper (because they will STILL have the EC Topper that no one else has), and will STILL be ahead.

Why? I seriously don't understand. The 1000 EEWOZs are STILL more limited than the 1500 75thWOZs, likely less expensive, come with invisiglass and their OWN exclusive topper, and can always have all the features (except the actual red body armor) purchased and added on as desired.

There will only EVER be ONE first edition ever-produced JJP pinball: the EEWOZ. That will not change. I'd understand it more if JJP made MORE EEWOZs. But that ain't the case. You will ALWAYS have the more collectible of the two editions. Or how every many editions JJP makes.

It's like owning the first line of Porsche 911s. They get upgraded, but the initial run will ALWAYS have a special collectibility quality that no other version of the 911s can claim.

You have the only initial run of pin that JJP will ever make. Period. Pretty collectible in my book. And, unlike the 911, you can ACTUALLY "upgrade" it to the later edition if you want. And you'll still be ahead of 75thWOZ purchasers from a money standpoint even with all that. And you'll be playing it likely before the 75thWOZ owners, as production won't start on that line for another what, four months?

So for those reasons, I just don't understand the frustration.

If anything, I don't understand why the 75th won't come with the Invisiglass. That strikes me as kind of weird as both the EE and 75th are kind of deluxe versions. So, like I said, I think EEWOZ owners are sitting pretty. They come out quite ahead as it stands in my book.

I think there are two general areas of upset here.

The first area of upset by EEWOZ owners at another edition coming to marketplace. They're upset over too MUCH supply, in a nutshell. I don't really understand this one as the new edition is less limited than the first, costs more for less features except a few playfield toys and a topper which EEWOZ owners can purchase and add on. I don't see it devaluing EEWOZs significantly, and as has been stated multiple times here in the past, generally, pinball is a HOBBY, not an investment. Even so, EEWOZs are NOT being reproduced. Only 1000 of them before, during, and after this announcement.

The second area of upset is, I think, general frustration at NIB pinflation. They're upset over too LITTLE supply (and mismatch with demand, driving up prices). This I understand in as much as I, too, love this hobby and want as many good quality pins as my basement can hold for as little money as possible. JJP makes a good product and people generally want it. So naturally people get upset when, even in a limited edition, it shows it costs more. But ultimately, this isn't determined by anyone but the market. Solvent, successful companies price based on what the market will bear. The good news is that JJP has said they'll keep making WOZs (in the regular version) as long as there are buyers, which helps keep the costs down to a degree. And that the difference in editions is PURELY cosmetic (unlike the evil LOTR/LOTRLR or TRON/TRONLE situations). Ironically, that unlimited production, which helps keep prices (especially in the used market) down, alienates those in the first "area" of upset: the speculators (for whom I have only limited sympathies... see first paragraph).

So given that I'm more concerned with pinflation, I'd rather that the Red Edition come with more to offset the price. It's not nearly as limited as Emerald at 1500 units. And INVISIGLASS is EXTRA? It should come with Invisiglass, wood apron, sound panel, just like the EE editions, given that it costs more and is a limited edition of sorts. I think it looks great. But for the sake of pinflation, it should come with more. That's my only gripe. But it looks great. It doesn't diminish the specialness of the EEWOZs, and doesn't have any features on it that initial purchasers could not have access to: no secret game modes, no exclusive shaker modes, heck not even exclusive BODY ARMOR!

So, once again, for the sake of pinflation, my only concern is that it should offer more for the money: wooden apron, invisiglass, headphone support.

Yeah, I agree. I'm not sure if its a "problem" though: I mean, they will still sell the standard edition presumably for less money for those interested. And I BELIEVE their license only lets them produce the 75th edition in 2014. So if they make 1500 of them and they collect dust, that's one thing, but if they essentially build them as ordered (either from individuals or distributors), then I don't see how they'd have an issue. Especially given that they have factory capacity to run TWO lines, but currently are only producing ONE pin.

As long as they don't start production until the preorders are ALL taken care of.

We should start a thread wherein people predict how many they will sell.

I'm going with 500.

But tamoore, are these not mutually exclusive positions? I agree with your second statement. But not so sure about the first, which I think contradicts the second.

Who is seller "choochooarcades"?

Harsh. But true.

For me, half the fun is learning maintenance and keeping the pin running. Tweaking it, improving on it occassionally.

That's not the case for everyone. But I do feel that if you're going to make a hobby out of playing with boxes that feature high-tech gizmos subjected to battering by a ball bearing moving at high velocities... well... you probably should expect having to fix things now and again.

If you're not making a hobby out of it, and instead this is a business decision... whew... don't know what to tell you... there are WISER investments out there, man.

But fortunately, you and I are of the enlightened.

/ducks

Is it flawed? It's not a PERFECT metaphor, but with both EEWOZ and B/WMM, SOME people were purchasing as investors, expecting significant appreciation when it came time to sell due to limited supply of those pins existing.

And for BOTH of those pins, more supply recently came to the market. Granted, not PERFECT duplicates of EEWOZ nor B/WMM, but enough that for those who really feel strongly about protecting the appreciation aspect of their EEWOZ or B/WMM, that it caused significant concern.

In the meanwhile, the resupply to the marketplace of LEWOZs and MMs of any sort makes available to more people a pinball experience that they might otherwise have not had access to...
... for a significant price, naturally.

So I think that, despite the change in manufacturers, at least from a pinball consumer perspective, the MM metaphor definitely has some applicability.

Yes, I understand your points. And I agree that it is not a PERFECT metaphor. But it's a reasonable one.

Counterpoints:
"The people purchasing MM's were purchasing from individuals."
-Irrelevant: they were purchasing the only MMs available from whomever had them for sale. And some of them were buying them because there were only a few relative to demand, whether they had to get them from a person, a distributor, a dealer, craigslist, whatever. They were going to pay a certain price to get their hands on a B/WMM.

"They were purchasing a used machine which is 15 years old made by a completely different company from a different era. "
-They were purchasing a MM. The only ones available were used (and 15 years old) by definition. Though occassionally when a NIB MM would come up for sale, they'd sell. Whoa, boy, would they sell. The fact that the MMs were used and 15 years old were not the point: they were LIMITED in supply relative to demand. Whether a pin is new, old, sold by individual or dealer, as long as there is a perceived gap between supply and demand, speculators move in: people who are buying less for the game, and more for the "investment." So, just like the LEWOZs, people were buying the only LEWOZs available. The fact that they were new (though some resales occurred) in terms of SPECULATION is not relevant. Both MM and LEWOZs were probably sold in significant numbers to SOME speculators.

"They were purchasing a machine which has been widely rumored to be reproduced for nearly 10 years."
-Rumored, and FAILED, to be reproduced for nearly 10 years, only highlighting the fact that strong, strong, strong demand existed, but significant hurdles existed, too, against the possibility that someone would find a way to increase the supply. And, STRICTLY SPEAKING, we still are uncertain whether those hurdles towards improving supply have been overcome. So once again, fodder for speculation. Just like LEWOZs, wherein people were expecting significant hurdles towards expansion of supply.

I understand why you're frustrated at the recent news of a new edition of a pinball that you clearly feel very strongly about. I hope that as time goes on, that you'll find that things are not so bad after all, and that your concerns will hopefully prove to be without basis. Hang in there. It'll be all right.

It depends: if you couldn't get your hands on a Tron LE, then I think you (and when I say "you", I mean "me") would be all for it. Yes, I say it now loud and proud: Stern, make me a Quorra Limited Edition Tron!!!!!!

In fact, I would want that even more, because at least with the EEWOZ and 75WOZ and regular edition WOZ, one can literally buy the components needed, even body armor, topper, cosmetics, necessary to have essentially the EXACT same machine.

But with TRON, like with Daft Punk mode, if you don't own an LE, you just can't get that experience. That's great for people who were able to get an LE. But what about the rest of us?

So, yeah, Stern: make a new version of the Tron LE. It's actually been requested LOTS of times on these forums well before any controversy over the 75th edition WOZs. They'd make a killing. And many more pinball fans would be able to experience a Tron LE without having to take out a second mortgage.

I wasn't trying to be condescending nor smug. I'm sorry it came out that way, sincerely.

It's just that it is easy for all of us to get a little emotional and not put this into context. Thank goodness none of this is genuine life and death stuff, and we're talking about GAMES here.

No matter what, neither you nor I have any real control over it. Just appreciate what you've got.

Thanks about the "pretty little head" thing. You've got the "little" part right. Not so sure about the pretty. But I'll take it!

Well... If it ends up in the WB catalog, maybe it is?

That's only if he doesn't MAKE 1500 of them and then cut prices if/as needed to move them later. Right?

Aren't you speaking up in defense of Catholics just now?

(I keed... I catch your drift).