Stern didn't do another run of LE's for Metallica even though they could have. Much respect for Stern for sticking to their stated LE number. I think another LE run kinda stinks for us original WOZLE owners. Has a Star Wars DVD re-re-release feel to it.

You do know that Gary will now price his next LE at 9 grand...cuz he can.

People with money spend it on shit that makes them happy. Pinball apparently makes people happy. It's fun on many levels. Your assertion that millionaires got rich because they "try and get things cheaper" is odd.

I'll buy 1 for 6k when I get the money OK buddy...

**IF** the WOZ75 sells, you know that is exactly what will happen.

Wow. I read the first page of this thread honestly thinking this was an April Fools joke of some sort.

So the original WoZ LE is now the Premium? How much for those four toys? At least the topper is getting a little closer to what was promised three years ago for the original LE.

Can't understand all the thumbs down here? No disrespect but what's my mistake Lloyd?? Not wanting to purchase another nib 9 to 10k JJP unless the current two hold reasonable value when selling one to buy his third if i desire to or working for a living and not being rich and just buying everyone that comes out? All I am saying is if I am going to purchase the next nib JJP pin the funds will come from a current JJP title owned. If the value isn't there for resell then I won't buy another JJP nib. I suppose there are tens of thousands of other pinball people willing to pay fresh 10k money from non pin sales to support endless buying of JJP nib... if there are not when pins depreciate as would be expected so will future sales of JJP nib. If my eclewoz #70 and my thle #70 don't hold considerable value when I need to pick one to resell to buy another JJP then I just won't do it. I am not talking about pins as an investment just about my next possible nib JJP title. I will need to sell one of the two currently owned if i want another. If I would have to sell it at a considerable discount to the price of the new title I want, then i just wont do it and be happy with the two I will have. Bottom line is unless I am able to sell a current JJP pin in my collection without taking a bath on it there wont be another nib JJP purchase. This mistake in thinking of buying more new in box only if selling one to fund the next is feasible without significant loss is hopefully mine and not the new direction of the industry taking out the collectability of these high end toys. I believe if the prices fall on nib pins purchased the ability to buy future nib pins is gone too.

Seriously was on the fence pondering THLE , that little guy that sits om my shoulder is telling me to keep my cash in the stash.

Your reading comprehension is poor. He stated that they STAY rich by being wise with their money.

pinball machines are not investment vehicles...

Why? I would still get THLE for $7.5k after seeing just how much you with a JJP LE / standard game. There's nothing else even comparable out there other then WOZ. This announcement doesn't make me want to go spend that same $7.5k on a Stern LE where I'll get far less for money.

Still, may want to preorder now before THLE goes to $9k, lol. $7.5k is already my max so I'll never touch a game at the new LE's price.

...And you can bet that every one of these will be sold.. all complainers aside.

Betrayed. No.. I think its just creative thinking on Jacks end, Am I a bit annoyed ,, Yes and No,, but I understand Business is Business.

Besides.. the guys who have the ECWOZLE... you should realize what you really have here. The first run of the first games to leave the JJP factory..it's pinball history.. that alone is special in itself if you ask me.. But I am not one of THOSE people.

Exactly, good points. Also, with these new LE's at $9k I'm sure WOZECLE owners will be able to sell their LE's for at least what they bought them for the foreseeable future considering they come with a unique topper, different (some say better) looking powder coated parts, and the clear coated wood apron.

the theory that you should somehow be compensated for participating in a hobby is one that escapes me...

you buy something, use it (and presumably get enjoyment out of it, which has "value")... then you expect to be able to sell it for more than you paid for it... name me one other "hobby" where that theory would hold water?

if anything, a return to "normal depreciation" would be a boon for the hobby as a whole...

will hedge my bet & wait & see, guys are pre ordered up in 2014 with 3-4 NIB pins, its gunna bust a lot of guys, late 2014 will tell the story if the market can absorb all this

Just the opposite... supply and demand and supply is winning big time now!

joeraptor2003 said "Besides.. the guys who have the ECWOZLE... you should realize what you really have here. The first run of the first games to leave the JJP factory..it's pinball history.. that alone is special in itself if you ask me.. But I am not one of THOSE people."

Disagree. Does anybody care what games came out first of Williams, bally, stern, gottlieb, etc.....today?

putting words in print doesn't mean they will be read either but people do get that pinball machines are not investment vehicles but why can't the same people acknowledge there is a considerable investment involved with machines especially nib? If not for many of the machines appreciating over the past few years there wouldnt be a JJP 9k machine selling either or at least at any sizable amount.

I never said anything about wanting to be compensated for buying a pinball machine just my pins sales will need to be used to fund future nib purchases from JJP and if the selling price of my current JJP are not close to the cost of his next nib within reason I am not buying it. I will be happy just having two nib JJP to play and if I get bored of one or just don't like it then my next purchase will not be a $9k nib is all. Jack doesn't have control of the future pin sales market but he can take the collectibility factor out or reduce it by making the same horse of a different color. I am happy he is successful in selling pins. I just don't know if i will be able to be a repeat multiple buying customer after these two pins. My resell market just became much more difficult as many potential future ecle owners just went Ruby. My issue and not Jacks, it just affects my ability to buy his future games and maybe there are many more like me.

Finish the code already.

.

Jack,
With all due respect
I can no longer believe anything you say or claim
You may be soley responsible for the latest rise and collapse of pinball
I will buy all your games when everything crashes for a total of 15k for all 3 of them whatever version I choose if you even get to #3 since you are running out of ways to get people to blindly throw $ your way before you put them on the backburner..
Just sucks..maybe Lawlor can save you if you can change his attitude towards pinball because you certainly have changed mine!
9k is just silly

how many pins bought nib have truly appreciated in recent years? hint: more of them have gone down in value than up... for every "hit" there are several "misses"...

no one is saying that a nib pin is cheap... but to expect that you should be able to buy one and sell it for more than you pay for it is an unsustainable expectation...

pinball machines are not an "investment"... they are an "expense"... two completely different things...

Teekee,
This announcement did nothing to increase the supply. It just changed the nature of the supply from standards to LEs. It did put more LEs in the market in the future at the expense of standards ... at a greater average price. So, given the status prior to this announcement to the status now, there has been no apparent change in future supply of WOZs in total. Putting higher price units in the market versus lower price units, with the supply constant, could increase the overall average price or hold it constant. It would not decrease the price.

Economics, my friend.

I bought the WOZ and am very happy with my purchase. Jack initially said there would be no limit on the Woz regular run. I thought great this will keep prices down and more people will be able to afford to get into the hobby. Now he comes out with yet a third limited edition? WTF.

Is there really that kind of demand for yet another limited edition? I think he may have jumped the shark on this one.

double post

IMO, 99% of these games will be sold to people that have never seen this site.

And that's a good thing, not saying anything bad about this site but the only real way to grow the hobby or appreciation isn't to be selling more to the same people but to sell to people new to the market.

The only problem I see with this is how they will be sold. There aren't any more Sharper Image stores and don't know of any national chain that would be connected with this sort of item. I don't know, are there still Warner Brothers stores like the Disney stores? Don't think they would have the ability to service anything like this anyways.

In a time when people drop twenty to thirty K on Harleys, less than ten on something like this really isn't that bad.

That's what I said when the STLE prices were announced.

I'd rather buy 4 or 5 (yes, 4 or 5!) System 11 games than one $8000 or $9000 hit or miss machine.

If it's a winner ... I'll get one later. If not ... Who cares. I got plenty of others.

rd.

Limited edition is a joke. Remember all the sports cards in the early 90s? Many of those claimed to be limited edition. Today there only good for wiping your ass. Jack is a good guy and I even bought a NIB LOTR from him several years ago. Sold it after a year and couldnt wait to get rid of it. However its all about profit here. Capitalism at is finest. CAVEAT EMPTOR.

YIKES!!! Someone's been watching WAY too much MSNBC. But back to pinball...

I'll put a topper and castle on next year's Christmas list (don't like how the tornado blocks the Emerald City, and Toto looks like a squirrel). I'm still focused on The Hobbit, which I expect will improve on the awesome features (and lack of GI) that WOZ has.

As an econ undergrad and a MBA with an econ emphasis I approve this message.

***Disclaimer: past results do not guarantee future performance

****Note to statsdoc: Never try to argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then they beat you with experience.

I'm waiting for the 3rd LE revision of the Hobbit. That one has EVERYTHING!

I hate to say this and please don't get it wrong, but if you can't afford to get into the game don't play. Pinball games are not a necessity in life. They are a hobby and a luxury.
So many people seem to forget that pinball games always depreciated...just like the car you drive every day. It was not that long ago when we always planned on a game being worth less than we paid for it regardless of it being new or used. We used to buy beat up old routed games and bring them back to a decent condition just to make fifty bucks to buy that beat up "holy grail" pin that we wanted. We would then clean up that game and try to update our collections with better quality games and titles. Nobody ever planned on any game holding considerable value.
So some guys made out pretty well on stuff they had been sitting on, some guys made a few bucks, and some guys raped the marketplace flipping MMs and AFMs.
Lots of us would like to have new Vettes, Porches etc....but we cannot afford it. And we (me included) cannot afford to take the loss that you expect to get with such a new car. The mentality that pinball games would not only hold their value but would appreciate only began 6 or 7 years ago. When BBB, CC, and later AFM started selling for stupid prices everybody thought they were sitting on a goldmine. They only got rare when manfacturers went out of business.
Things are finally getting back to normal. We have more manufacturers. Eventually prices will drop now that new pinball games are not a rare commodity anymore. Distributors will eventually have new games in stock, and prices of used games will slowly get a bit lower but it will not be a crash.
The day might come when you are glad you did not buy a bunch of overpriced NIB pinball games. If you cannot afford to take the hit on a NIB game you really should not be buying any. Used games will always be available later, and being that so many are now bought for homeowners there will not be a shortage of HUO games in any title for the future.
In fact, operators will probably start buying HUO games to put on route after the owners take a hit on what they paid for a game NIB. It would take a long time on a route to pay that $1000 difference between a NIB or used game (Xmen LE or Transformers LE for example).

Maybe jack purposely dragged his ass for three years just to capitalize on the 75th anniversary lol

I need to spell it out for you. I am not investing in my pins for profiting. If I am to shell out another 8 to 10 k on a JJP nib I am going to need to sell one of my other JJP pins. If they don't hold value well I won't be buying another nib JJP because I don't want or need to have 25 k in three pins. This is only if I want another JJP title after his first two. If I can't sell one without absorbing a reasonable loss then I won't be buying a new in box JJP plain and simple. I will just be happy with the two I have. Just saying if he wants return business he needs to not only create value but hold it too. This high end market to be sustainable either needs to create many new pinheads that want to spend 8 to 10k on multiple JJP pins or have the loss on nib reasonable or we are in a very finite business model.

Imagine this if you will:

Stern releases ACDC LE quantity 500. Takes everyone's money and then before they finish shipping the first set of LEs they come out with a BETTER LE (qty 1000) that makes the old LE look a less desirable by comparison. I can't imagine the outcry if that would ever happen.

Sometimes the truth is really stranger than fiction.

Spoken like a true Californian.........nuff said.

For this to be true, the 75th would have to be a superior product to WOZECLE.

The 75th has a different topper, possibly cheaper at cost to JJP than a WOZECLE topper, one which can be purchased separately if desired, a few lovely toys, again, which can be purchased separately if desired/when available, a metal apron (some of us would much rather have our signed wood aprons), no invisiglass (unless Jack decides otherwise later), and ruby color legs, side rails, etc, to give the game a fresh new look to keep the excitement going, to boost sales, that's all.

All this makes the 75th a different, an attractive, and an exciting table, not necessarily superior, and as such, it won't adversely affect WOZECLE's value, desirability, or collectability while generating precious new sales. Good luck with the sales Jack.

JJP has to claim a larger slice of the pie however it can, however, with a specific view towards not alienating its current customers. It is my considered opinion that this endeavor would do nothing of the sort. Things and people will calm down and see things objectively. I love the excitement. These are good days for pinball.

We should commend jack for taking real RISK to start this business in this economy.  He parlayed ALL the goodwill and trust he had built up over the years to start a pinball company in the 21st century.  Really, that took real courage.  Sure he did sell out of the Wozle to seed his company.  Congratulations because NO bank would have ever financed him.  Along the way, with unforeseen delays, did he ever have to sign a personal guarantee for a loan to fund his factory and inventory buildout  - I don't know but I'm sure it led to many sleepless nights.

I own a wozle and I am happy that jack has another avenue to keep his lines busy if there is a lag before hobbit production.  I like the new toys and topper and sure i wish they were on my machine but i can buy them later - wow definitely first world problems.  Hell, I told jack 6 months ago he should call the silver one the Tin Man LE.  

I wish pins were less expensive, I started in this hobby a year ago and they are replicating like rabbits in my basement, to the chagrin of my wife.

With escalating health care costs and the devaluing of our currency, expect pins (and everything else) to increase in cost.

Jack has been great for pinball, WoZ has raised the bar and expectations for all future machines.  

I'm outa ammo.  

PS I owe my friend in Madison for selling me the woZ many thxs and best wishes
PSS I need to donate to pinside soon
PSSS I have no confidence in Seneca Wallace but hope I'm wrong

9k?

For the woz le le?

Really jack? The marcet sets the price? Really? Are you lieing or just a moneygrabber acting a fool?

Have fun with your last few costumers, millionairs who dont care about pinball.

Damn..... Cant believe this.

< sigh > stop and think for a moment about what you are saying...

"i need someone to buy my used machine for more than i paid for it so i can buy the latest one"... ummm... wouldn't it stand to reason that:

a) a buyer with that type of money would want the latest one as well?
and
b) a buyer with that type of money would have already been in the game, especially since jjp's machines have exploded what the concept of "limited" means?

or are you special, and everyone else in the hobby simply exists for your wants and needs?

i'm not putting words in your mouth... you are the one who said you need your machines to appreciate... not me... go back and read your posts...

again... pins are an "expense"... if you can't afford that expense (and many of us can't), tough...

half of the first batch are not even done yet, and another 1,500 start in in 7 months... suuuuuuure.

and on top of that the release of the hobbit for dec. 2014, more like late 2015 early 2016, good luck to those who ordered the hobbit!

Where you posted this "I need my pinball machines to appreciate in value if I am to buy nib in the future. "

Maybe I worded it poorly. And I am sorry if I did.

But there is no guarantee pins will appreciate in value. When you think of all the pins made for so many years, very few hold or go up in value.

LTG : )

Great post.

Not to mention it will take years to sell 1500 of the 75ths (if ever). As long as they can knock out a dozen or two every once in a while, the price of 75ths will never increase either. Fortunately no one ever buys a high end limited edition game with the hopes that it will hold or go up in price.

Allow me to lighten the mood

Bacon & boobs

image-437.jpg

is that bacon the maple le? or the brown sugar le?

Shut up. Please. Just shut up. Commend Jack? I really wanted to. But I will not commend someone who is responsible for raising pin prices to absurd levels and for crapping on those of us who put up money years in advance of getting (or even seeing) the final game in order to support him. The promise was ... "there will only be 1000 limited editions made ... get in before it's too late". LIE. Suddenly there is a new "limited" edition that is even superior. Oh, we saved a few bucks?? BS. I could have put that $$ (7500 in my case) in the stock market for 2 years and made more money. By the time I buy the new toys (and the much needed light kit) I'll have over 8k into this. For what? I do feel undervalued. I'm no distributor that's for sure.

and why call it the LE, it's not even limited anymore.
call it SE, to me it sounds like a 75 anniversary Special Edition.

we are getting Phuck and it's not even good!

now it's time to say 10k by x-mas.

I think this one already is 10k in Holland.

Congratiolations to JJP !

What a great job he did. Before his announcements, only 3 years ago, NIB were 50% cheaper.

Thanks mate!

Is this what you meant by bringing pinball to a whole new level?