In building a customer base, two options:

1. Get customer, retain customer, rinse, repeat. Your customer base grows.

2. Get customer, lose customer, rinse, repeat, someday you might run out of customers.

This pre-order nib model, is cresting the mountain top now......I sense the tide beginning to turn.

I'm out.

Tell me of one ECWOZLE that has sold for 10,000$????
They are for sale for much less than that right here on pinside.

I don't think anyone can claim JJP is gouging anyone, we don't know what a WoZ costs to produce. It could be JJP has been running in the red. Maybe after selling a few red versions, he'll make a black signalling profitability.

I was a day 3 WoZ buyer. I went in blind, trusting Jack will do just as he did, build a new viable pinball company and create a superior product than what was being made. It was slow and painful watching it happen with slip after slip but in the end the game is truly a piece of art and will earn it's place as one of the all time great pins ever made. After finally seeing JJPs 1st effort, WoZ in the flesh, I was convinced the Hobbit will be as good or better and decided to put myself on another 2 year long wait list. I was reluctant at $7500 but figured the quality and value would be there. Had the last price $500 hike already taken place, I would certainly have passed. Long story short, at this price JJP has seen the last of my business going forward and I'm bummed.

Agree with your entire post. However, if this is the Ben Heck game you are referring to play it first. Was left very unimpressed at Expo. Like Ben, but game was a meh.

Its simple

You have people that seem to think X Pin is worth X amount and are willing to pay .

You have Stern ,JJP ect that want max profit and make pins . They are also smart enough to realize that we are in a huge bubble at the moment , and quite happy to keep pushing the prices up ( its good business )

When the bubble pops is anyones guess but until it does Stern JJP ect will be there to feed the frenzy .

This is super interesting news to me.....I bought someones spot for ECWOZ about two months ago.

First time I visited a NJ pinball dealer to play some used games, he had a WOZ and I was blown away. The dealer was a really nice guy and actually suggested to me to not order the EC edition because he said that a 'ruby slippers' edition would come out around Christmas. This was in August when I visited the dealer.

So.....I waited a bit. I talked to some pinheads I know and all told me not to hold my breath.

A post on inside had the EC WOZ spot for sale. I thought the price was fair and I called JJP to verify and to ask some questions

I specifically asked JJP if the 'ruby' edition was going to be a reality - I said that I would prefer to give my money directly to them and wait a little longer for the game rather than take someones position which I have heard doesn't make JJP so happy.

The very kind and helpful person on the from from JJP said very matter of factly, there is no chance of any other editions coming out. Don't hold your breath and at the price you are getting this transfer for, you should take it.

I asked again - and they said - we will not make a ruby edition - the only LE will be ther green EC edition.

So, I can't say I'm very upset about this announcement - I see that the dealer who told me about it was more upfront and honest than JJP was when I was going to order the game. I am just disappointed.

I run a business and I know that deals happen and call apart regularly -I can't imagine this was not something that was being worked on for months and months. New toys to make molds for, new graphics - and the time it took to build the 75th LE I believe took attention away from delivering games people have had on order for years.

This is what is disappointing.

You must keep your customers happy.

My kids can't wait for their WOZ - lets see JJP work 7 days a week to get the machines that are on order out the Dorr and into the hands of their owners who funded JJP's company. I think if everyone had their games already and this was announced people would be less disturbed by the news. I know I would have been.

Still - its a great work of machinery and engineering and WOZ has done great things for pinball. If the market can take all these new games its great for us all. This is the manufactures way of keeping prices low in the aftermarket. In about 5 years you will buy these games for 4 to 7K HUO and that should make thousands of people very happy in time.

I think the air is being let out of the bubble already. I'm already seeing an increased level of selling and fewer buyers on older titles. I think JJP is absolutely crazy to think they can sell 1500 @ 9k ... apparently people reading the WB catalog are extremely wealthy and won't balk at dropping 9k in a heartbeat.

I think that the average Joe pinhead who has one or two machines will be much happier at the lower end of the market. There are plenty of good DMD machines in the $1500-$2500 range and you don't have to get in the rat race as to who is going to spend the most on a pinball machine.

If you're someone who can afford a 9K pinball machine or several of them, I'm having a hard time figuring out why you even give a sh**. Maybe since I'm not in that tax bracket, I just don't get it.

This will happen until more people are priced out of the NIB market. The NIB price hikes are not sustainable.

I don't think Jack is crazy, I think he figures he will sell at least a few hundred or maybe several hundred but had to say the quantity would be "limited to 1500" so it didn't look like it was a direct eye poking to the original LE owners.....

The red will end up being a whole lot more "limited" imo........

You have to love pinside for looking at a topic and dissecting it from every angle till there is nothing left to say, and then finding even more to write about. We may be a small minority of pinball buyers around the world, but we do have a voice and what comes out of this place has an affect on pinball manufacturers.
I cannot begrudge JJP for any of the moves they make, because I dont know a fraction of what actually goes on in that company. They are free to run their business any way they see fit.
All we can do is voice our opinions and in doing so, will help to shape the opinions of others. This is quite powerful in its own right.
I think the message of a 9k machine and our dissatisfaction at that price point is resonating with all manufactures. There may be a small % of buyers for 9k+++, but those that are more active in this hobby will and just might have reached its limit.
Disclaimer: almost 2 yrs ago I bought an lotrle nib, and I remember the discussion right here about 6k for a new machine...and we were all pretty much outraged. But....9k+..+..+ for an unproven title may have finally reached its limit. We can all hope nonetheless.

I can't feel sorry for any $6500 orders who missed out on the $9000 pin? I just don't see anything to feel sorry or hurt feeling about that.

I would consider buying a ECLE from anyone for $6500 so they can jump on the 75th edition.

You hit part of the nail on the head. The sting of waiting since 2011 for some of us who paid since then is turning into resentment towards an announcement of yet another version. My kids were so excited when we ordered and when JJP started shipping. Now, I'm the joke of the family. "Hey Dad, hear from JJP on your order? Will it be here by XMAS 2015? Are you sure they got your check back in 2011. Can I have some money to buy ___? I will pay you back when you get your WOZ. Hahaha". A family moment has turned into a family joke. I will not mention this Ruby Red version to my family. But here I wait while locals get their standard version they ordered three weeks ago. Distributors get games they ordered after my 2011 order. Now Ruby freakin red.

Collectibility I've said enough on. Manufacturers just don't get it. I just want my game I paid for in full years ago.

Not a macro econ expert, but I believe when you're money is tied up for three years and is unproductive for you, that is called an opportunity cost.

Just make ONE damn version of a game already.

Wikipedia is always my first scientific reference. Live free and die!

Classic. True. Well done.

Ice, I agree for the most part, but a version that is more limited because it has not sold out usually means the one that did not sell out does not hold value as well.
I don't know why I even bothered typing this since I don't care much about the price. I guess what I am trying to say is that the ECLE will always be the more desired version regardless of how many reds get sold.

I would love to know on average how many new customers any new machines are reaching. It's amazing looking back at threads from 2-3 years ago what we were talking about. Prices, availability etc.

i've been saying this for a while.

one pin fully loaded with stuff, that's it everybodys happy, maybe once in a while a limited edition.
you want red candy, blue, whatever color, do it yourself or someone will offer it, just the way you like it.

but it won't happen.... moneeeeeeeeeeeeey!

Or at least tell your customers upfront what the hell you're plans are so they can make good buying decisions… think of the customer !

We'll certainly see but I'm curious what happens IF they are unable to sell 1500? Say 1.5 years from now .. they still haven't sold 1500? Now this edition just become 1 of ... 600? 700? That's the 'unknown' part that is a little scary and it will certainly be too late to complain again at that point.

Oh .. and I wasn't singling out Jack (all of JJP). I'm sure there were a lot of people in his ear making suggestions and giving him advice (even if he made the final call.)

I'm curious ... does anyone remember back in the 90's when the store 'Sharper Image' was selling a pinball machine in their stores and catalogs? Wasn't that Cirqus Voltaire? I don't think they sold too many to those high-end shoppers.

Damn, Teekee hit it there.

Yes, you think about the customer. Part of thinking about the customer is not going bankrupt. If you go out of business how can you help/service/supply the customer? Decisions are more complex than just telling your customers everything you are planning. The manufacturers need to maximize sales for the current model product that they have on the line.
Homework: Look up Adam Osborne and see what being upfront with what the hell his plans were for his next computer and what happened to his company.

Disclaimer: I own a WOZECLE and I'm happy with it and this new version doesn't bother me.

I agree. Good point.

Here you go...and god knows how many others Automated has sold at those prices privately:

ebay.com link: EMERALD CITY LE WIZARD OF OZ Pinball SHIP 2DAY WORLDWIDE 110 220V AVAIL NEW

What IF:
In the end,
10,000 Standards are Made
1,500 Ruby Red are Made
1,000 Emerald Green are Made

Won't every buyer than enjoys the game at the cost they got in be happy?
Won't that be good for the "hobby" that quite a few go on route?
Won't it be good for the "industry"?

doesn't say it was sold.

Reality Factor: is that Collectors will wait.
Distributors of Standards to semi-collectors and operators are key to keeping a pinball company alive.
I doubt Jack worries about pull back of $,$$$ down on a game from collectors, as there is a waiting list for all of those yet to be delivered.
Business Model is Brilliant to me.

Yes it does. Look at the banner across the picture - I wouldn't have used it as evidence if it wasn't sold.

correct, I have been watching them for long time, I have never seen one sell on Ebay except the one for 8800 from a private owner.

You believe what you want to on Ebay. So many bogus sales on Ebay. They are not selling for $10k, not even close… I just passed on a couple for $8500 and $8800. If you want one now you can get them for mid 8's and that was before this new round of LE's…

lolll, it's the only place i didn't look, sorry you are right!

that could be true also!

But...but...what about fighting gravity by using flippers to keep a silver ball in action on a playfield? A playfield that has targets and ramps and toys oh my!

Wait... I didn't do that right....

What I meant to say, is, what about the fit and finish and LCD screen? Jack really thought outside of the box, creating impressive synergy that resulted in a massive paradigm shift. WoZ is absolutely like no other game before or since, and by not having one, you are COMPLETELY missing out.

My god, man...IT'S TEH FUTURE OF PINBALLS!!1!!!

In this case the ECLE did sell and there is seller feedback:

ebay.com link: ws

(Link will not work but you can click on the ratings number to view)

Amazing and so much fun!!!!
a***5 ( 109Teal star icon for feedback score in between 100 to 499)
Nov-02-13 06:45
EMERALD CITY LE WIZARD OF OZ Pinball #2- SHIP 2DAY- ASK IF FREE SHIP APPLIES-NEW (#390676042422) US $9,995.00 View Item

I feel for you. I felt the same way when I saw standards built and sitting NIB at a show in July, waiting for buyers, when I still hadn't received my ECLE. And I get being upset about the 75th LE, because it annoys me to no end as well.

The only explanation, if we go forward with the assumption that Jack is not an absolute idiot, is that JJP had no choice as a company.

They needed revenue from the standards, so they had to keep getting those out there, since the ECLE money has already been spent. They recently jacked the price up on standards again, about a month ago. Now at the midnight hour they are throwing in another LE? What other conclusion can you draw? They can't be that dumb that they wouldn't have the ability to foresee ECLE customers being livid about this, so we have to say they have no other choice as a company. That's just the conclusion I have to draw. And if so, then I guess we have to ask "Would we rather they go out of business? Or can we stomach some of these annoying decisions in their first crucial year as a manufacturer?"

You'll receive your machine and it'll be awesome. The machine is amazing, the build spectacular, the lightshow and animations like nothing you've ever seen, along with a brilliant ruleset, and there's nothing like it on the market right now. So you'll be happy with your ECLE and you'll get it soon.

Try to put the new LE and all the other illogical stuff out of your mind, assuming they must be doing it for a reason. And most of us early ECLE buyers, like yourself, went into this knowing that we weren't just going to get an amazing machine, but were helping give birth to a new pinball company. Keep that same attitude now, knowing that your forbearance as a consumer by looking the other way at the new LE and the standards shipping ahead of your EC, knowing that you not only helped give birth to a new pinball company but that you're now helping them stay in business.

That's my positive spin on the situation. No sense in getting upset over this stuff you have no control over. Try to look at it in a positive way and hang in there!

Lol, believe me Ebay can be manipulated in anyway you want. Things like this are set up all the time to pump prices, etc. JJP and Automated would certainly make a good team for this. Jack's been claiming $12k!

Its very possible some fool may have purchased one for $10k on Ebay. There are a few overpaying fools on Ebay. It may have happened it may not have happened. Doesn't matter. They are far from the $10k mark. Anyone wants one for $10k or heck even $9.5k please contact me… I'll give you a good deal!

....and they would pay Ebay the 10% seller's fee on $10,000 to manipulate the market WHY???

We the consumer will have final say in pricing. Most collectible hobbies run some type of "LE" within their product base. Most eventually over produce and LE's lose their "collectibility" to some extent and production numbers are lowered and the market adjusts.

Its never good to be on the starting end of this LE madness but eventually it will find its rightful place in the pinball world. Companies will either rise to the top and have credibility in an LE market and others will fall. Reputations will be built either positive or negative.

Whats funny is that normally its the unforseen products that end up retaining the highest collectible values. But if I may offer my opinion in this would be for Stern and JJP to continue making LE's but for the longevity of a collectible market they must stay out of the price gouging and let the market/consumer dictate pricing.

In a perfect world if these companies had the same price point for regular and LE versions, then sold the LE's first to generate buzz and sales the lasting effects would be far greater for all.

You just cancel the auction after it closes. The buyer is off the hook, the seller doesnt have to pay fees, and the completed listing looks exactly the same so nobody is the wiser.

Don't ruin his day… let him think that his $8000 WoZ LE is really worth $10k cuz Ebay says so!

I am really on the bubble on this.. -- I like the ruby red and I have not recieved ming yet ... I am a collector and I love to play pinball -- I am hoping some day to open a place when people and kids can come play pinball and enjoy these games -- But I do agree to some of those out there that just got there games and this version came out, I can see them being mad...even pist off. I know some missed out on the WOZECLE, but you can get those for 8000.00+...if you were smart and saw the vision early, you were rewared with getting one at a good price.

I think I will buy one in addition to the one I have coming -- I love JJ Pinball and the quality is the new standard,

I only wish he would have done like 300 or maybe 500 -- I think 1500 was the wrong move -- from a collector point of view -- But I support Jack, I just dont think it will go to 1500 -- but I could be wrong.

I am really on the bubble on this.. -- I like the ruby red and I have not recieved mine yet ... I am a collector and I love to play pinball -- I am hoping some day to open a place when people and kids can come play pinball and enjoy these games -- But I do agree to some of those out there that just got there games and this version came out, I can see them being mad...even pist off. I know some missed out on the WOZECLE, but you can get those for 8000.00+...if you were smart and saw the vision early, you were rewared with getting one at a good price.

I think I will buy one in addition to the one I have coming -- I love JJ Pinball and the quality is the new standard,

I only wish he would have done like 300 or maybe 500 -- I think 1500 was the wrong move -- from a collector point of view -- But I support Jack, I just dont think it will go to 1500 -- but I could be wrong.

and let's not forget, one sale doesn't set the whole market

If the hobby understood that, we wouldn't be in quite the situation we are now.

Someone needs to produce and sell Common Sense - Hyper Limited Edition.

What is weird, is that the manufacturers are doing reverse capitalism. With competition prices for machines are supposed to fall, not go up.

Stern is selling a STLE for 7.8k, PPS then sells a MM for 8k, and finally JJP goes for the 9k.

This could only mean two things:

1. The demand is larger than we realize, or at least the companies think so. (If true, we will really see even higher prices with even more pins)

or

2. The pinball companies have over evaluated the market. (If true, we will see a correction)

Now to keep pumping as many pins into the system as possible to capture as much of that money as possible we have seen:

1. A representative from Stern, Steve Ritchie, announced X-men code might not be finished.

2. PPS reproduce a 8k remake, with a LE and unlimited with similar features

3. JJP announce a new LE with a price increase

Even the news that have positive aspects in them has alienated part of their base. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in a couple of years.

I realize that but at some point shouldn't the inventory be sitting somewhere unsold? If that doesn't happen they are going to be able to keep this going for years and good for them. I just don't see it.

But how would the buyer get to rate the seller if he did not complete the purchase?

Nobody is saying that the games can sell in masses for $10k, but it only takes one to buy a single game.

Sharper Image was selling Sterns in the 2000's...Sopranos, POTC, TSPP, LOTR. The guy I bought my LOTR from bought it from Sharper Image.