I can!!!! Jack is on video from dozens of pinball shows over the past 2-3 years proclaiming "There will only be 1000 Limited Edition Games made and they're selling fast" (or many, many variations to that effect). By selling this new LE, that is false advertising. Plain and simple, he LIED. I sincerely believe he could be sued. I bought on that promise and I'm confident others did too. We put up with people questioning us for 2+ years like we were idiots for trusting our money with Jack ... we were taunted the game would never happen ... but we believed. We supported Jack. We believed we would have something very limited and very special. And now he just hits us with this. I find it absolutely disgusting. I find it to be nothing but GREED with complete disregard for those that helped get his company off the ground. It's wrong. Period.

It's called (super) sarcasm,
wow,
do I have to explain sarcasm on this forum before I use it?

huh?

Screw U Guyz!
I'm ordering the mega super top secret LE edition.

Well , there are a few people that could say " I told you so" but they are banned for calling it as they seen it !

Lol! Keep thinking that. Game is a blast to play and quality wise it's better then anything out there. I'll only be buying NIB JJP games until Stern offers far more to justify their prices.

Whatever Panzer , glad you enjoy your game !

Well, I'm only on page 4 of 15, but I bet Jack doesn't respond to this one.

Excellent points, Metallik.

http://i.imgur.com/fK5yA.gif

Yes...because they'll be getting their Hobbits.

Which was exactly my point.

Good point - but people change their minds all the time. If there's another buck to be made, only a moron wouldn't capitalize. BUT...you probably should feel out your customer base first to make sure you're not perceived to be screwing somebody over. That's where the mistake was made, I think.

No emotion in my position, and I understand yours and Teller's (big fan here, btw...). As a collector of first edition books, I've bought authors who I love that cost me big bucks to get - only to have the books depreciate. It doesn't matter to me, though, because I love the author and because they (usually) signed it. If you love something, it shouldn't matter about the money. And I love my ECLE!

He could have just made as many standard editions as needed and kept those that funded his company in the beginning by paying up front for 1000 games happy. One True Limited edition. This is like Stern making another tron Le but adding some things and saying that is different. That is one thing that Gary would never ever do. They have and never will build more Le's of the same game.

Im thinking payroll was due and had to think of some way to squeeze even more money out of the few that have been truly loyal to him..

hey I have not built your game yet but shoot me a couple extra grand and will make it even better with some molded toys, acrylic topper and some red powdercoating. But also make sure you pay me in full for Hobbit.

Its truly a great game, unfortunately.

I doubt that in 6 months anyone will have a Hobbit. I bet the last 500 WOZLE will might be delivered by then . I hope

I was just being a wise ass - but you get my point.

In 6 months? Are you kidding? lol. I've been told I have one of the first dozen or so ... and I have significant doubt I'll see my game in 2014.
I can't even get a decent update from JJP. We've seen almost nothing ... a very early DRAWING of the playfield. That's it. We were shown artwork .. only to have that be retracted. I've been paid in full for almost a year .. and the only info I can get is a rough drawing of the playfield. Not even a list of the LE features. JJP has been too busy coming up with a new 75th Anniversary LE of WOZ. It's very upsetting.

Everything else aside, who are these high-end WB fans? I am sure there are some, but most people who collect that kind of stuff do not have $9,000 worth of nic nac crap in their collection, let alone $9,000 to spend on one toy and if they did they could have bought the standard with the cute topper on the new machine. Jack can sell what ever he wants, he can produce more green LEs if he wants to, but that does not come without unintended consequences. Right or wrong, people who bought LEs under the guise of it being the only LE have a right to be annoyed, or upset on some level. I was already not going to buy another LE because I do not want to give anyone that kind of money without a box on its way to my house. That being said, disregard of obvious alienation from loyal customers who paid well in advance for a product with the assumption that their game is the only LE WOZ (hence hurry up and buy this its your only chance) is at best a di$% hea* move. GLWYS Jack.

In the past I would have sent Jack an email if I had a problem or concern. I won't be doing that, he can read it here....See? Unintended consequences from a loyal customer.

For what its worth, I also thought putting pictures out of the ugly METPRE, then after all the LEs were sold, adding the (in most peoples opinion) better premium addition Dirty Donny style is also deceptive. Its not as dramatic of a move, but it is very similar, intended or not.

Which manufacturer has managed to survive during hard economic times and still produce multiple products ?
Which is years behind in shipping one (1) game and is still running under start-up company status ?

Everyone understands you are a WOZ fanboy / cheerleader but comparing an established company with multiple product offerings with a start-up company releasing one (1) is apples to oranges.

Lets see how WOZ and JJP fare a year or two from this date.

The only thing JJP blew is its reputation with its customers with missed dates, some manufacturing issues and making more "LE's" for a quick buck (for them).

That's what Blackberry said about the iPhone when it was released!

Btw, some of you guys should take a thread break, Thor was a fantastic movie, go see it

We can no longer afford to see movies,now that pinball is getting close to 10K shipped !

I own #47 WOZECLE. When I first saw the ruby red one a month ago or whatever my first thought was that it was cool and then the more I looked at it, the less I really liked it. Either way, I like my pin and if Jack can make more profit, whatever. I go to work every day looking to make a profit. I would rather not have 2500 LE's (oxymoron, imo) but if people go for it, fine.

I bought mine ready to ship and paid $8700. I'm also in line for a Hobbit and will have my STLE shipped next week (hopefully...got a call from JJ today saying shipping should start end of this upcoming week). I'm not a pro JJP or Stern guy. I'm pro-pinball. Do I know if this is the best thing for the hobby? I've not been in the hobby long enough to really answer that but things must be doing okay if pins are flying off the shelf at every turn. We'll see.

In the meantime, enjoy your pins!

Who know's if we will ever see a Hobbit pin.

No shit! Gas and groceries next?

I don't know for sure, but I hope so. You should be pretty certain of a good amount of sales when potentially alienating a lot of customers.

Is there a plan? You'd hope there's a plan. Who knows at this point?

image-475.jpg

Just looked at pinballs.com (Automated) has ECLEWOZ for $10495 plus shipping.....

image-435.jpg

Blackberry always sucked and I never owned an Apple product in my life.
Overpriced crap.

The same applies to pinball machines at some threshold.

Your right about some things, but regardless of how I feel about missed dates and this new LE. It is an amazing product compared to every game I have ever played. In the end a great game may not be enough, this is true. But that does not change the fact that its a sweet game.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were the ones who Jack said had ordered 125 already. They can go f*%k themselves anyway.

Sure you can. There will be a hobo living in it next to the dumpster with the WOZ.

With all these new pins coming out whatever happened to supply and demand lowering prices?

Just wait.

If that's true, then it justifies everything they've done right? Cash is King. I'd expect JJP management to grind whatever grist the mill requires to manage their cash flow. If that means selling standards or releasing a ruby red edition, so be it. It's not reasonable to begrudge them doing what's necessary for the firm's survival.

BTW, I don't work for Jack, am not friends with Jack or otherwise a shill for Jack. I just think JJP remaining solvent is good for pinball.

I'm holding out for the $700 The Wiz Ghetto Fabulous LE.

I really don't care that JJP are making a different LE because I haven't bought one, to me the most discouraging part of this whole thing is yet another price hike. Has there been a product that has doubled and in some cases tripled in price faster than pinball? I would love to own a WOZ but I'd have to sell a kidney to get one and I'm not sure that would be enough. I guess I'll have to wait about 6 years to buy a used one at an affordable price.

Read this entire thread, I can see both sides of the argument, and I just unboxed my WOZECLE 3 days ago. Am I a little hurt by this WOZ75LE, yes, but it's got nothing to do with money, more that as an early adopter, I was buying into something special that now is a little less special, but that's about the extent of it. This is the second time in a few weeks that a game I own has suddenly had the supply of go up, MMr, so the collector in me is a bit sad, but there are no guarantees when collecting, and I will survive

Whether Jack needs to do this to keep his doors open is pure speculation, but it's just good business to keep the factory busy once all the ECLE's are done, and before The Hobbit production begins, and he figures this is a good way to make that happen.

I won't be at all surprised if he does something special for us ECLE owners, exactly what I'm not sure, but I think that would go a long way to smoothing things over. In the end, I'm thrilled with my ECLE, and look forward to seeing The Hobbit take shape

Not that I am a fan of higher prices but your gas statment is not in line with the larger picture and inflation.

http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Inflation_Rate/Gasoline_Inflation.asp

Ok then I'll edit the gasoline statement out. Gasoline was so far from my point

I do not know of anyone that suggests that WOZ is not a well built game and that is not the core issue.
The shit lightning rod is basically a start up company commanding the highest price in the market with little established reputation and a poor delivery record to back it up.

I would love to see more pin manufacturers so the players have more options and the companies compete among themselves for innovation and pricing that benefits the player / customer. What I see is the opposite in setting new retail price highs , shaky delivery and more sales pitches before getting caught up or ahead on games already sold.

JJP could be their own worse enemy.

Myself, I'm on the fence with bailing on my ECWOZLE that still hasn't shipped yet. The journey just got a whole lot less rewarding.
Someone make me a good enough offer and I'm out.

There's a surprise.

LOL

Ok, I just skimmed through this whole thread and I'm sorry if this has been brought up already. I'm still waiting for my WOZECLE. Jack has promised me it would be delivered before the end of the year. However using past results as a guide to the future, I wouldn't bet any money on it. So…this means JJP will still be building the original 1000 LEs along with those pesky little standard editions that keep popping up for at least another 4-6 months. How is he going to squeeze in potentially 1500 rubies before he's supposed to start building TH?

Oh and I could really care less how many games JJP builds. I just want my game. However I can feel for those who are pissed. It's nice to know that If I get tired of my WOZ I will surely be able to get my money back. Maybe not so much for anybody who has paid 7.5-9K for their game. There are going to be lots of WOZs out there. Resale value could be flat forever.

He already built you a game below his cost and now you want more blood out of the turnip ? Why don't you do something for Jack and buy a Ruby blood red 75th ?

Really? I think the 75th looks pretty nice.

Some of these business models seem unsustainable going forward to 2014/2015.

Despite all Stern's faults and dire code updates, they are the company doing really well, as they are selling more at higher prices now, without really changing their business model much.

They are the great survivor and I put them as favorite to still be here in 5 years time. We shall see.

Even if the first part is true, (and you don't know it is), it's irrelevant considering the risk that a lot of us took in helping fund the start up of his company, the scales are pretty much balanced $ wise IMO. What has gone out of kilter here, is that every WOZECLE buyer thought he/she was getting the best version of WOZ that would ever be available, that is no longer the case and that just isn't right. I want my WOZECLE to have the upgraded castle, the tornado, the lollipop targets, (don't care about Toto sculpture), and possibly the topper, and I don't expect to get them for free, but it would be a very nice gesture and I believe much appreciated by ECLE owners, if we got some sort of break on purchasing the upgrades, something just for those who kept the faith. Honestly don't think that's too much to ask.

Scanners, right?

LOL, you were lucky to be getting $8500 for them. Now $8000 should be about right… and falling!

Prices for new pins are really controlled by Gary and Jack. Neither of them have much incentive to compete on price. I'm sure they'd both like to see 10K per pin be the new going list price. I've no doubt that will happen within the next year or so unless demand tapers off.

I understand your frustration. I was a zealous supporter of JJP (Jan 2011) and decided to walk away in March 2013 after several broken promises. From my perspective, it was clear Jack's journey would be filled with more surprises (and I was getting bored with the ride).

I don't think any of this is pre-meditated...I think he's just making it up as he goes along. If you don't like what you see, don't buy his product(s). That's what I did and I have 0 regrets...collection is doing just fine without WOZ.

In the last 3 years I have seen over inflated prices and greed from both Stern and now JJP. Back in March I was rooting for WOZ even though I was not a fan of the game. It was nice and refreshing to see a new pinball company. Now I am not so sure. All I can say is WTF with the 9k price tag for this BS WOZ Candy Cane edition. I am an EM guy but I wanted to buy one, just one NIB Stern or JJP and I had money in fist to buy an AC/DC Premium. Why didn't I? Because everyone and their mother has one! But the real reason is they continuously drop the ball with unfinished code on every pin they put out. I don't wish to support a company that puts out an inferior product with bad code. Now getting back to JJP. I am a fan of The Hobbit movie and books. Will I buy one now? TRUCK NO! Even if I was a millionaire I would pass on principle alone. Price gouging, price gouging, and again price gouging. 4k for a Pro and 6500 for a LE what the prices should be for a Stern and 7500 for the WOZ because of the extra stuff like LED screen etc. I waited for months and months and month for the Star Trek. Will I get one? Nope again, money was in fist but wasn't impressed.

Sorry if I am lumping both JJP and Stern together but I have had it with both companies. It looks like the wife and I will get a "America's Most Haunted" pinball from Spooky Pinball Company as my first NIB.