The pinside one was before expo, you can check the dates on the thread.

Double post, sorry

Like I've posted many times before, "In the end, there will be more collectors than players."

People need to recognize that while we are all in the hobby to enjoy the games, some are also excited about the collectibility nature it presents in addition to gameplay. Many of us come from the comic, autograph, baseball card, antique toys or stamp collecting hobbies. It's cool to own a rarity, something unique, and the hunt to acquire is also part of the rush.

As a hobby we need to define what an LE is or should be. Because right now I don't think the manufacturers do. I respect their right to make money - as they should, risk = reward. But some who buy in on an announced LE are also buying in for the gameplay AND the risk = reward of collectibility of something possibly rare and more desired. If all buyers know up front only x LE's will ever be made - or two LE versions will ever be made - and they decide to take the risk/reward and pay more - that's the game and all is fair and just. But when this is not clearly communicated and changes (regardless if its JJP/Stern/SkitB/JPOP/whomever) this rightfully upsets a group of buyers who regardless of right/wrong intentions were misled in their purchase decision. You did just change the definition of an LE - and those buyers likely would have voted differently with their wallet knowing this now.

I do believe start up manufacturers (JPOP, JJP, SkitB, PP) should just focus on getting a solid game in the market, filling orders in a timely fashion, and produce a "bling kit" if you want to make more money. Complicating a production line that is already way behind in production run - be careful biting off more than you can chew. Ford started off with "only black" for a reason. As his business grew, he was proven wrong and the market forced change. But he had a thriving business first.

I wish all the best but this hobby is getting nuts. Bling is cool but get the base products out first please. Pretty please. With sugar on top.

That's catchy!

Well, at least my Caribbean Cruise LE (only 377 made!) hasn't gone down in value...it's still worth like 200 bucks lol

This is just greasy... LE was already made, be done with it. Leave off the fu@#in numbers. Offer the standard with all of the other options for a premium charge, $9k. You have just pissed off a few potential future buyers. Shady...very shady.

Nice!

Just add some pointlessly tacky mods to it, and you can QUADRUPLE yer money!

Jack also knows that most people on here have short memories and change their minds every five minutes.

Actually - I just looked at the flyer...it says "Limited to 1500" and doesn't say anything about a numbered plaque. Soooo....it might not have numbers or be bound to actually producing 1500. It'll just be a really expensive regular edition that might end up being more limited than the LE lol

It also means that JJP can sell more than 1500 without anybody knowing.

Another thought. Could be that Jack knows there is no way he is selling 1500 of these at 9k but figures maybe he could do 250-500? But if he announced another LE run of 250 reds then what?

In my opinion Jack could better call it a special edition... The 75th anniversary edition, just as it is. But the special of the edition would be if JJP would put the red armor + extra toys in/onto a normal WOZ, and sell those for the same price as the regular edition.

Btw... Leave out the plaque... That confuses A LOT of people.. As this threat shows clearly!

I think the 75th edition is pointless. The extra toys are what may be pissing everyone off. That is just stupid. I'm cool with any manufacturer changing the trim, topper or backglass. Anything beyond that is a slap in the face to the early adopters on this game.

I'm not in favor of this and may be cancelling my hobbit order as I can wait for that games mega edition if I end up loving it. Who knows I may end up not liking the Hobbit at all.

I also agree that the entire LE market is just crazy stupid anymore

I'm talking about from the hobbyist point of view. You said the only people who care about LEs are speculators. Not true.

Jack I really like my WOZECLE. Very happy. Thank you for the update to pinball.

So they announce a super LE and taking orders for it and release standard editions prior to the first run of LEs going out: Brilliant!

The market will hold it or not, do you think it will hold these sales?

According to Gary Stern at Expo you are incorrect.

Nope, there won't, more players are created daily than collectors.

It's called the power of attraction folks.
People wanted a remake/remix of Medieval Madness and we may get it.
People wanted another manufacturer so we got it.
People wanted a super-LE version of WOZ, here ya go!

Snake oil baby over and over.

Just buy the game whens its at the retailers, Stop prepaying for all this crap. This whole pay for the game ahead of time or the price goes up... I hope people realize this is good old fashion Mafia tactics.

The game is great, The way it is being peddled is not. Lets see an actual good argument against that.

What is the difference? I heard that there's no clear coated cab and the apron is dif as well...What's the real deal here?... I'm so confused!!!

Jack did state in the email: "This game comes with 4 custom toys/playfield additions, beautiful red treatments, a shaker motor, a new topper, and will be numbered." May not be a plaque, but it will be numbered.

Seriously? Nothing has changed? What a joke.

You are correct...you DID miss it! They are releasing ANOTHER LE of the same pin! Adding a few toys and changing the color of the trim. Nothing has changed? Only the potential for 1500 more "LE" versions of the same pin...years after the first "LE" version was announced.

"Just as limited as they were before". I think not. They aren't even the top of the line model anymore!

I don't know if that's it. I think what is pissing people off is that they feel like Jack is full of shit.

Because you don't have to be a bricklayer to recognize shoddy brickwork.

... and THIS is shoddy brickwork.

I think you are correct! The "limited to 1500" announcement when the reality is a whole lot less will be made at 9k is quite deceptive. After people snapped up 1000 MMR's in two days like rabid dogs, at 8k.......

Yah, but HE went to the EIB (egregiously idiotic bullshit) institute! Rush, time to go, your speed is calling!

Not at these prices.

Man, the only thing I hate more about the concept of the LEs is all the whining and bitching people do about the LEs. More cool machines in the world is a good thing. I am not going overpay for a modded Tron a Pro that isn't the complete game, but I sure as f*ck am not going to pay $8-12k for a Tron LE because it's got pretty ramps and is limited. Screw that. LEs really only help rich people justify spending more money because they believe the LE protects their investment value. Well,I don't care about that. I want more cool pifnball machines in the world, not less. It pisses me off I can't find and play or afford a Tron LE...because it looks like a cool game. The fact that only 400 of them exist is stupid. Stern should make more under a different pretense. Why is that uncool? The things freaking listed for $5,300... Why should Stern care about protecting the people that invested a few more hundred for the LE? That "took a huge risk" whoooooooaaaaaaa! By paying a grand more for something shiny? They sure as shit shouldn't care about the Tron LE after market. WOZ is a little different...but for those that bought the LE as an investment and are crying about "75", where's the waaaaaaambulance? Plenty more room for you next to the MM owners...and hopefully the Tron LE owners too, when Stern releases the premium.

Is it just the color and some toys with a dif. topper? Or is the cab dif as well as the apron. ?????Details appreciated!

The rips on Obamacare are ok, but the people bitch slapping the retard global warming deniers get a lecture?

I don't understand why everyone is upset. Jack can produce as much limited Editions as he wants to, as far as every edition is really limited. So if he decides to make a silver colored edition, the two LE before are still limited and exclusive.
I am collecting DVDs for years now and everyone doing this alsoknows, that "limited" does not mean that there will be no more any other realease after.
But as it seems, that a lot of you have to make this experience right now.
Your first LE is still limited and for real collectors worth every cent. But if you have bought this for showing others that your woz its so much cooler than other ones, you have now a serious problem .
I have so much movies in my collection, that are nowadays worth nothing, but payed for them hundreds of dollars, for i thought they are soooooooo exclusive... and noone will ever release another better version...
But thats capitalism
So i have 8 versions of "evil dead" , 3 versions of "hellraiser" , 2 "rambo", robocop, james bond abd other boxes,fir i am a collector.
So stop complaining about another LE version and buy the new LE also.
Or be happy with the one you have got.

FamilyArcade. Not trying to derail the discussion... But is there gonna be a Tron Premium? Sorry if this stupid question.

Desirable to who? The secondary market? Is that who Stern and JJP should be catering to?

Of course there is! In my world anyway. Stern is stupid not to. Oh, wait a minute, maybe there won't be one.

Excellent post.

i don't recall any great clamoring for a "super-le version of woz"...

Okay, so what makes something limited? The WOZECLE, how is it different than a standard? Same game, right?

But you got some perks. First off (in exchange for a long f---ing wait, not excusing) you got your game for $6500, not $9000. God damn that's a big gap.

Secondly, you got your game first. This 75th thing is a ways off. And as late as things are that's no small thing either.

So those are serious perks, but let's look at the physical stuff:

Same gameplay, so the difference between a standard was some green powdercoat, the signed wooden apron (probably the coolest part, and this new edition won't have it), and what? A topper? I don't even remember.

Anyone can powdercoat and get a topper made. The numbered bit and signed apron is what makes it. Please correct me if I'm leaving something out.

None of that has changed. Your (well not your since you don't even own the machine you're so upset about) WOZECLE is still just as limited as it always was. Yes, there's a new edition now, with some extra toys. It would suck if you couldn't get the toys, but turns out they're available to anyone. Standard owners can grab them too, which is nice. Like I said, Stern should have put out a ramp lighting kit, they'd have made a killing if Eli's mod is any indication.

If Stern decided to release a Thunderstruck AC/DC special edition, with those lightning flasher mods stock, I'd say good for them, smart move. BIBLEs would be no less rare than they were before. Would they lose a little value? Probably, but that's life in the collector market. This idea that things are just going to go up and never fall is a joke, and MMR is living proof. Time to get used to it.

Because you can't help yourself! If you like the theme and think the game will be awesome, you'll buy it. If past performance is a good indicator of future behavior anyway...which in people it is. You are like many others. You love pinball and You want it first. That's nothing to be ashamed. Just don't try to bullshit a bunch of bullshitters in the temple of bullshit.

9k, best way to attract new pinball players.

Well... If it ends up in the WB catalog, maybe it is?

I KNEW you wouldn't be able to resist jumping back in! The funny thing is, on this forum I agree with almost everything you say and disagree with almost everything your nemesis (tiki as you call him) says.

But....

Politically, teekee is conversely usually spot on and you're usually, well always, jejune.

It drives me crazy trying to figure out why this is???

Why on Earth could the 'Regular' WOZ NOT have ended up in the WB catalog?? They make it sound like they had to come out with a 75th Anniversary Edition in order to get into the catalog.

Your whole argument comes down to: there is no such thing as a "Limited Edition", and that you don't think that there should be anyway.

So this is just the point where we have to agree to disagree.

A factor no one is talking about that is specific to the NJ Market - in the past week, NJ Voters amended the state Constitution to increase the minimum wage EVERY YEAR beginning 1/1/2014.

Labor for every game produced after that WILL cost more to manufacture. ****While I make no presumptions about JJP Staff wages, it stands to reason that SOME will be minimum wage and some higher - but a "ripple effect" may be in play.

Bottom line - Higher wages = Higher prices. "The market" is not limited to the demand side - there are supply side factors such as wages that impact prices.

I'm guessing that they announced 1500 of the "Super WoZ" edition because that way they can still claim that the emerald one is "more limited."

Even if there is a good chance that they won't sell that many (and, maybe JJP knows this), they HAD to announce a bigger production number for the SuperWoZ.

As messy as this entire thing is, imagine how it would be if they announced 300 of the 75th Edition. It was better to say 1500, and sweep it all under the rug if less than a thousand got made.

I'm not sure why so many are surprised by this, Jack has been shady in the past (with the LOTR LE for example). I'm sure he has done other things I am not aware of. I don't see things getting better with JJP. I am still in awe how behind they are with WOZ production.