Best post in this whole thread.
Time to let this one go...

I cant believe how many people are shocked with this kind of behavior from a guy with jersey in his name lol

Most pin heads would buy a used baby diaper if it had le on it, Stern and jjp know this.

If the pinball companies are truly giving people what they want, then it seems the pinball community is asking for only one version of games with no more LE's or Premiums? Take a vote?

Even though I want JJP to sell thousands of games and have no problem with this as a WOZECLE buyer if future JJP LE's cost $9k I'll never be able to afford a NIB JJP game again. $7.5k is already a lot and I just can't justify going higher then that.

Don't feel sad for me. I received from JJP exactly what I hoped for when I bought the game in 2011 - an innovative, beautiful, modern looking game, packed with features and creative rules that is fun to play and that people want to play on location.
Pinball finally took a step forward with WOZ. I hope that many thousands are sold.

-WOZECLE owner

how about make all the les and premiums you want but don't change the game play

Still the finest pin made. Shame they pissed so many people off.

Those are all prototype items for the two games built. Nothing has been produced yet. They still needed to get item and part numbers.

They should call it Candy Crush edition. The red armor reminds of the game Candy Crush. Anyway I didn't buy the ECLE in hopes that it would appreciate in value. If the Candy Crush LE allows for some extra cash flow to improve code and fund development of Hobbitt then I'm all for that. Although I am skeptical that they can sell 1500 at $9K a piece.

and Toto looks like a squirrelh

Here's a nice brindle cairn terrier toy for $5.50. Maybe too big at 2 in. I'm sure there are others.
http://earthntree.com/miniatures/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=36161

This seems to me to be a desperation move. Not sure why you'd risk pissing so many people off unless it was a move which had to be made to keep the wheels greased. I hope I'm wrong.

Its a shame the Le is not the Le anymore. The red looks terrible in my opinion with the cabinet artwork. What a bad move by Jersey Jack to screw over his LE buyers who hung in there for over 2+ years thinking they bought a true LE. He should offer all his Emerald City LE buyers free 75th add ons for screwing them over!

I was thinking about buying a Hobbit LE , but not anymore!

I agree 100%.

Just because you CAN sell more of something doesn't necessarily mean you should. That may be the lesson Jack learns here.

You serve your future LE products better, and the health of those future Pre-orders, by leaving the market wanting, just a little. It's the old "sheer a sheep many times but skin it once" thing. The reason there's been Pre-order Frenzy on many of the latest LE machines, because those folks believe they are buying (1) the absolute best version of the product and (2) because they might not be able to get it for as low a price later. I think JJP risks deflating both of those notions with this 75th Super LE, made in even larger quantities.

It certainly gives Hobbit pre-orders something to think about when the next payments are due. It gives everyone something else to consider when the next JJP LE is announced for pre-order: "Hmmm, well there's already going to be 1500 of these, and they might decide to announce an even more upgraded version of the LE later.... so I think I'll just wait and see..."

A little bit of trust has been lost between the consumer and JJP with this 75th LE, I feel. That's not good. The profit from the 75th may be glorious, but what it does to future pre-orders may be decidedly less so.

Everyone just calm down, I am a WoZ standard owner. I see no problem with this.

Now if they were only going to produce 500 of them, that would be a different story for ECLE owners.

So for $1K more than the standard MSRP you get a shaker ($200), a few toys ($60) and powdercoated hardware ($150) and a different topper ($50). By my off the cuff calculations you are getting $460 worth of add-ons for $1000.

I have no problem with Jack doing this. He does need to offer the toys and topper on the open market for those who wish to add them along with making the shakers more easily available.

I applaud him for getting in on the 75th anniversary hype and getting this product out on the market. We all know that sometimes you must "strike while the iron is hot".

We all know the reason for the WOZ theme is that they were producing a WOZ redemption pusher and already had the license. We should be grateful as we did get was an innovative game with an actual LCD display, great theme integration and top notch construction instead of something minimal to maximize the use of the license.

This pricing increase has allowed JJP to invest in a future license (Hobbit), other license exploration, R and D so that hopefully we will have great games to enjoy for the foreseeable future.

The flooding of the market is under way.

I think with all the bitching people still will want LE's even if their not so 'limited'. The hobby created this situation and the hobby will decide where it goes. If they only made 500 TRUE LE's, people would complain they didn't get one and they should make more. The pinball hobby is a fickle group, I don't blame the manufacturers for trying to give people what they want. And let's face it, it's kind of hard to feel bad for someone who bought a WOZECLE and the machine is worth more than what they paid for it before they even got it.

Teekee, I see your point, but I am not sure I agree that this was planned all along. Perhaps it was. I don't know. I don't think this is going to destroy demand for WOZ. In fact, Jack may be reaching out to new markets with the WOZLE75. Personally I prefer the EC version, just switch to the 75 topper and castle. The cost difference is too great for that small change.

I do know that I am thrilled to get in on a loaded standard before the price went up, and see the early purchase of the Hobbit LE as even better now since prices are going up fast. It looks like I am effectively being priced out of the NIB experience after Hobbit.

What I miss more than anything is the civilty that used to exist here on Pinside. I think you have an interesting point of view and I like hearing it. Our postings back and forth are civil. I wish that was the case among more people here. Why does everyone hate each other so much? We all love pinball. So JJP puts out another LE, that does not diminish my pinball experience when I play. I am seriously at the point where reading Pinside diminishes my pinball playing experience more.

Problem is, I don't see how they're going to sell 1500 of these things at that price. I bet the sell well less than 1000.

Lemming edition

I think there are two general areas of upset here.

The first area of upset by EEWOZ owners at another edition coming to marketplace. They're upset over too MUCH supply, in a nutshell. I don't really understand this one as the new edition is less limited than the first, costs more for less features except a few playfield toys and a topper which EEWOZ owners can purchase and add on. I don't see it devaluing EEWOZs significantly, and as has been stated multiple times here in the past, generally, pinball is a HOBBY, not an investment. Even so, EEWOZs are NOT being reproduced. Only 1000 of them before, during, and after this announcement.

The second area of upset is, I think, general frustration at NIB pinflation. They're upset over too LITTLE supply (and mismatch with demand, driving up prices). This I understand in as much as I, too, love this hobby and want as many good quality pins as my basement can hold for as little money as possible. JJP makes a good product and people generally want it. So naturally people get upset when, even in a limited edition, it shows it costs more. But ultimately, this isn't determined by anyone but the market. Solvent, successful companies price based on what the market will bear. The good news is that JJP has said they'll keep making WOZs (in the regular version) as long as there are buyers, which helps keep the costs down to a degree. And that the difference in editions is PURELY cosmetic (unlike the evil LOTR/LOTRLR or TRON/TRONLE situations). Ironically, that unlimited production, which helps keep prices (especially in the used market) down, alienates those in the first "area" of upset: the speculators (for whom I have only limited sympathies... see first paragraph).

So given that I'm more concerned with pinflation, I'd rather that the Red Edition come with more to offset the price. It's not nearly as limited as Emerald at 1500 units. And INVISIGLASS is EXTRA? It should come with Invisiglass, wood apron, sound panel, just like the EE editions, given that it costs more and is a limited edition of sorts. I think it looks great. But for the sake of pinflation, it should come with more. That's my only gripe. But it looks great. It doesn't diminish the specialness of the EEWOZs, and doesn't have any features on it that initial purchasers could not have access to: no secret game modes, no exclusive shaker modes, heck not even exclusive BODY ARMOR!

So, once again, for the sake of pinflation, my only concern is that it should offer more for the money: wooden apron, invisiglass, headphone support.

Well played sir, well played.

The problem with JPOP is that you have no clue when you will be receiving your game. With only 13 MG to produce, there have been zero delivered. 99 Zombieland, maybe by 2016 if you are lucky. Alice in Wonderland, maybe 2018-2020. Yes they are more limited, but there are no reasonable expectations of delivery. To ask the historic question, "What if JPOP gets hit by the bus?" What then? What are you left with? If Jack or Gary get hit by the bus, things will continue...

Yeah, I agree. I'm not sure if its a "problem" though: I mean, they will still sell the standard edition presumably for less money for those interested. And I BELIEVE their license only lets them produce the 75th edition in 2014. So if they make 1500 of them and they collect dust, that's one thing, but if they essentially build them as ordered (either from individuals or distributors), then I don't see how they'd have an issue. Especially given that they have factory capacity to run TWO lines, but currently are only producing ONE pin.

As long as they don't start production until the preorders are ALL taken care of.

We should start a thread wherein people predict how many they will sell.

I'm going with 500.

But when will Zombieland come out, or Magic Girl? Nobody has ever seen one publicly. At least JJP is making games. How can you even make the comparison? It's like comparing WOZ to a Widget.

A Widget LE anyone?

10k by Christmas.

Sorry got carried away.

The 'Problem' being they're essentially creating a new, potentially more more desirable 'LE', especially if they only make and sell 500 or less of the 75th.

I'm glad I don't give a shit about pinball as a status symbol or investment.

If you want your pins to appreciate or depreciate lightly, get off your ass.

Spend hundreds of hours beating your head against the wall as you learn how to fix and repair and restore. Burn yourself countless times with your soldering iron, and cut yourself several times on metal that makes you debate getting a tetanus shot.

God forbid you have to put a little hard work and pride into something before you have a game that appreciates or even by the time you're all said and done "lightly depreciates."

Man, how I wish your delusions were true, just buy shit and play it for free while doing nothing but having fun! Sounds like a nice world to live in.

Yes, I also happen to believe the new WOZ LE was a screw job to current LE buyers. LE, standard, this LE that LE, that doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is that I believe Jersey Jack lied, I don't own one, but I don't think anyone else expected another LE. And I don't think any of the current LE owners were told there would be more LEs.

LE still stands for LIMITED edition, right?

It's not important to me, but it's obviously important to them, and from my point of view, they were lied to.

Well the first ones have arrived on ebay now. Nice mark up in my home state.

http://bit.ly/1bgX18M

But tamoore, are these not mutually exclusive positions? I agree with your second statement. But not so sure about the first, which I think contradicts the second.

Who is seller "choochooarcades"?

It is only flawed in the sense that the company is the same this time, so some people feel betrayed as the same entity is making the decison. 16 months versus 16 years does not change the logic, and ultimately there was one entity behind the release of the MM property rights anyway.

The logic is also not flawed in the sense that some owners see their "investment" undermined and cry "foul" yet are happy to hop on another opportunity that undermines someone else's "investment". My point is that too many of us laugh at the misfortune of others yet are hurt when the tables are turned and we are the point of ridicule.

Again, I have no "dog in this fight". I just hope we can all get past this and play pinball. If I had a WOZLE on order, then I would be thrilled that I didn't have to pay a lot more money for seemingly trivial upgrades on the WOZLE75. The only people that took it on the chin IMHO were those that bought a WOZLE in the open market later at an increased price, but they were never JJP's direct customers anyway. Their situation is very closely linked to those MM owners that were hurt with the release of the MMr.

Some people do care..

Yep

Is the value really about how limited the pin is? I am with the others that see value mainly in a great playing pin that keeps bringing me back for more. Players vs. collectors, I guess.

It still amazes me that people didn't realize this after the great LOTRLE debacle.

Bringing up that fiasco now is very fitting, since we then had Jack claiming that he didn't want a LOTR limited edition. He just wanted a re-run of the regular game instead of the LE. I guess he did learn something from Gary...throw on a different color trim, call it limited and raise the price. Just don't forget to put US coin doors on them.

Harsh. But true.

For me, half the fun is learning maintenance and keeping the pin running. Tweaking it, improving on it occassionally.

That's not the case for everyone. But I do feel that if you're going to make a hobby out of playing with boxes that feature high-tech gizmos subjected to battering by a ball bearing moving at high velocities... well... you probably should expect having to fix things now and again.

If you're not making a hobby out of it, and instead this is a business decision... whew... don't know what to tell you... there are WISER investments out there, man.

But fortunately, you and I are of the enlightened.

/ducks

Yes, yes. The value is in the play of the machine, we get it. "I would be just as happy if I ordered a LE which was sold as the ultimate edition a few years ago and then a new and better version was announced," we get it.

You are perfect and you epitomize the soul of pure pinball passion, not collecting for investment or even caring about which model you get. You ordered a ST LE and they sent you a ST Pro and you didn't even complain, because you transcend earthly possessions. You have evolved beyond primitive pinball man.

You are a Pinball Angel. All must seek to be like you. Amen.

Your logic is completely and utterly flawed any and every way you slice it.

Comparing what two different companies did 15 years apart to what the same company did with the same title the very same year it ships is impossibly flawed.

I am one who bought mine in the open market for more, I've stated that this announcement doesn't bother me, I like the look of EC then the 75th, do I hope the toy mods will be available at a decent price or even given to WOZ owners, sure, the castle walls look awesome, personally I have the other tornado mod on order and like the look of that one over the JJP version. Depending on theme I would be a direct customer of JJP in the future, I bought mine to play period.

Is it flawed? It's not a PERFECT metaphor, but with both EEWOZ and B/WMM, SOME people were purchasing as investors, expecting significant appreciation when it came time to sell due to limited supply of those pins existing.

And for BOTH of those pins, more supply recently came to the market. Granted, not PERFECT duplicates of EEWOZ nor B/WMM, but enough that for those who really feel strongly about protecting the appreciation aspect of their EEWOZ or B/WMM, that it caused significant concern.

In the meanwhile, the resupply to the marketplace of LEWOZs and MMs of any sort makes available to more people a pinball experience that they might otherwise have not had access to...
... for a significant price, naturally.

So I think that, despite the change in manufacturers, at least from a pinball consumer perspective, the MM metaphor definitely has some applicability.

Seriously man, take a quaalude. I did not say one was better than another, just that I buy pins to play. We will disagree on why we own pins, but at least I have evolved past the need to denigrate fellow pinsiders to make an argument.

The people purchasing MM's were purchasing from individuals.

They were purchasing a used machine which is 15 years old made by a completely different company from a different era.

They were purchasing a machine which has been widely rumored to be reproduced for nearly 10 years.

Do I need to keep going...?

i prefer to wait the next WOZ 80th anniversary, only 3000 LE !