Wizard of Oz
Jersey Jack, 2013Quoted from vid1900:It's not like "a lot" of anything expensive.
Inserts are $.03 each.
Coils are $4
Pop mechs are $1
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Even if you want to talk about finished parts, in quanties over 1000:
A finished, decaled cab is $400
A playfield is $200
A motherboard $50
A blockbuster movie license $20
You guys are putting the pussy on a pedestal again......
A 99% coded game...priceless.
Quoted from hillbilly:Well...maybe not. At least not quite. Like the clip though.
What kind of gas mileage do you get with your Stratus?
Quoted from centerflank:They pre-paid and waited forever for the "innovative" WOZ to get delivered hence the nonstop higher build quality rhetoric. Its quite laughable.
They are assembling it, they put it together with the instructions Chicago Gaming supplies them, your implications are misdirected.
Like what? Color changing LED inserts that AC/DC already had or the operating system that I see a thread every few days that their game won't boot?
edit--Oh you meant the innovation of not using washers under the screws to secure ramps, my bad.
Like I said, depends on what you mean. WOZ feels like it's built like a mack truck. Does it have some problems, yes. Would I trust it to be running in 20 years like most sterns will be, probably not but that certainly has not been proven yet. Some could say all of the extra parts and new design makes it a better build quality. Some will say it breaks all of the time and is a piece of s##t.
It does have more inserts and color changers then any other game by far. Overall it's a successful first game. They need to fix several QC issues for The Hobbit though or they will not make it to game 3.
The big question is it worth $8500-$9500. I say no way. It also makes me think Pat's game if it gets made will retail at $9500 which is insane to me.
Quoted from jgentry:Does it have some problems, yes. Would I trust it to be running in 20 years like most sterns will be, probably not but that certainly has not been proven yet.
Probably why the warranty isn't transferrable.
Quoted from vid1900:Agreed.
"Although when you only put out one game every 5 years, you have plenty of time to get the code right..." - - - - - Devil's Advocate
Haha, true. But software is expensive man and takes so much time!!! I think also its the economies of scale is the #1 factor here and that is why customers are having to pay more. Need to keep JJP afloat as much as possible. 1 game in 5 years versus, what, 12 for Stern? JJP has had to eat more money in initial start up costs, etc whereas Stern had none of that (but the new move will set them back some too).
JJP taking too much time to get TH out is hurtful to the bottom line as well. They really need to get multiple projects going instead of one at a time, or face extinction...
Quoted from vid1900:You were talking about BUILD QUALITY.
The LCDs are not old enough yet to judge how well they are built. Will they last 30 years like DMDs? We don't know.So you think LCD is new technology? Just not in pinball. Do you have one in your home? Do DOT matrix go bad? The LCD technology last just as long as the DOT matrix. I have had to replace more DOT matrix than LCD in the last 20 years.
Widebody is a size, not a example of BUILD QUALITY.
WOZ cabs have the same 3/4" plywood, with the same loc-joints and metal corner brace that all recent pins have.
Same braces than run across the bottom as a 70s Bally.Not the same hardware as my most recent Stern. Haven't measured the thickness but upon inspection looks much more sturdier.
I have not seen the graphics show through, but I have seen the wood show through the graphics (around the tree pops).
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LOTR is a beautiful payfield, I wish they would have taken the extra step to white board the playfield. You can see the the wood grain through the graphics. Other than the POTD its probably the only flaws I can really pick out on the pin.
It's not like I wouldn't buy another Stern, because I really would like to add a SM and a MET LE. The thread stated about the increase in price and all-in-all I believe that the JPP is worth the money compared to a Stern LE and a better build quality.
Quoted from centerflank:What kind of gas mileage do you get with your Stratus?
Don't own a dodge. How bout your yugo?
Quoted from hillbilly:Don't own a dodge. How bout your yugo?
Its a sweet hatchback so at least I can fit a pin in it!
Quoted from centerflank:Is this how you speak to people at your fortune 100 company?
Absolutely not, but thankful this isn't a fortune 100 company, and I'm sure you wouldn't be working there either?
Quoted from hillbilly:and I'm sure you wouldn't be working there either?
Correct, Ill stay happy owning/operating my sole proprietor business that Ive been doing the past 12 years. 
Quoted from chessiv:No. Prices go up for a multitude of reasons. Increasing parts costs being one. Financial instability can cause a business to raise prices in an attempt to dig out of a debt hole. So no, is does not definitively indicate demand is outpacing supply.
This is exactly what I see happening. Pair this with Jack's support in Jpop's thread about "getting what you paid for", and it's difficult to NOT see alarming connections. I would speculate that Jack figures the price point is beyond a normal operator's ROI already, so why not try and compensate from over-privileged hobby customers.
I'll say it again: Anybody that has unsecured money in Jack's hands, better think very carefully about the potential of losing it all. This price hike could very well be the barometer of a collapse.
Quoted from hillbilly:and I'm sure you wouldn't be working there eithe
Only because Flank don't speak Chinese !
Quoted from hillbilly:LOTR is a beautiful payfield, I wish they would have taken the extra step to white board the playfield. You can see the the wood grain through the graphics. Other than the POTD its probably the only flaws I can really pick out on the pin.
That's not the case for every LOTR. Mine is very smooth. Stern's playfields were a major crapshoot back then, though.
Quoted from vid1900:WOZ cabs have the same 3/4" plywood, with the same loc-joints and metal corner brace that all recent pins have.
Same braces than run across the bottom as a 70s Bally.
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That's actually not true. WOZ heads don't have the usual metal corner braces with carriage bolts going through the head. Look inside the cabinet and you'll see it's not made or assembled like other pinball cabinets.
Quoted from hillbilly:LOTR is a beautiful payfield, I wish they would have taken the extra step to white board the playfield. You can see the the wood grain through the graphics.
I can't see any woodgrain showing through on mine, but no doubt different batches were made.
I have seen where the white is really thin on some Champion Pubs, so no doubt it happens sometimes; depends who was manning the press that day.
Quoted from ronaldvg:The printed manual is something else. Not the Stern - we staple a few sheets of paper together - quality, but large laminated pages (or even from some sort of plastics ? ) that is a complement to the machine.
If it isn't bound in cowardly lion skin and the ink made from munchkin tears, it still isn't worth $100 to me... to each his own I guess
Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:Look inside the cabinet and you'll see it's not made or assembled like other pinball cabinets.
You are right.
Completely different than any other pinball cabinet ever made.
No 3/4" plywood, no loc-joints in the corners, no decals, no glue holding them together.
No wonder they hold together completely when tossed from rooftops.
Quoted from vid1900:You are right.
Completely different than any other pinball cabinet ever made.
No 3/4" plywood, no loc-joints in the corners, no decals, no glue holding them together.
No wonder they hold together completely when tossed from rooftops.woz_cab.jpg
Didn't say that.
Quoted from vid1900:Where exactly is the BUILD quality of WOZ **far greater** than any other modern pin?
Remember when digital amps first came out? Manufacturers would put weights in the bottom of them, because otherwise they felt too light, and analog users were used to associating weight and heft with quality.
When I was at Expo last year I kept hearing people at the JJP booth hyping Hobbit as being one of the heaviest pins ever, because it was so crammed with things. And hey, fine, it sure is covered in mechs with all the drops, no question. I'm not sure it's actually a selling point to tell me that moving this pin is going to be a huge pain in the ass, but I get the angle.
Thing is I think people have started using this "it's heavy, therefore it's quality" argument too much. It's just a pinball. And they break and have issues just as much as anything else.
Quoted from Aurich:Remember when digital amps first came out? Manufacturers would put weights in the bottom of them, because otherwise they felt too light, and analog users were used to associating weight and heft with quality.
I sometimes repair amps that have huge machined aluminum sinks along the sides, and no transistors or rectifiers on the inside sinking any heat into them. They do look pretty though....
Quoted from Aurich:Thing is I think people have started using this "it's heavy, therefore it's quality" argument too much. It's just a pinball. And they break and have issues just as much as anything else.
That's how you know that Genie is the highest quality pinball machine ever built.
355 glorious pounds of quality.
Quoted from Frax:Holy hell, I'm glad I never went to buy a Genie then...love the game on emulator and the real thing, but I'm not gonna move that.
I'm a big guy, but I take the playfield out and the head off when I move those fatherfnckers.
Quoted from hillbilly:So the LCD isn't an improvement on the DM?
The flipper coils continuous cycle on Sterns unlike the Williams.
Widebody and better constructed cabinets. (Look again at corners and supports)
Playfield undercoat, graphics shows through. (Ex. LOTR)
I personally think its obvious but to each is own.
Light board failures. Machines not booting. Play fields chipping. Wires not properly crimped. The list goes on and on. JJP build quality is no better than stern. Oh! Static spray to stop your machine from failing. That will always be a classic!
Quoted from hillbilly:LOTR is a beautiful payfield, I wish they would have taken the extra step to white board the playfield. You can see the the wood grain through the graphics. Other than the POTD its probably the only flaws I can really pick out on the pin.
It's not like I wouldn't buy another Stern, because I really would like to add a SM and a MET LE. The thread stated about the increase in price and all-in-all I believe that the JPP is worth the money compared to a Stern LE and a better build quality.
Actually, LOTR play fields were all over the board as far as quality. The colors had to be just right during the screening process. Most of the play fields in games don't look good. When it was screened well I agree, great playfield.
Quoted from chessiv:Actually, LOTR play fields were all over the board as far as quality. The colors had to be just right during the screening process. Most of the play fields in games don't look good. When it was screened well I agree, great playfield.
Yep, the LOTR I play on-route here in Denver has a "blurry" look to the text and images, like they were misaligned just a bit during printing. One reason I thought a LOTR VE would be nice (though it sounds like there are some originals with perfectly printed play fields).
Quoted from fosaisu:Yep, the LOTR I play on-route here in Denver has a "blurry" look to the text and images, like they were misaligned just a bit during printing. One reason I thought a LOTR VE would be nice (though it sounds like there are some originals with perfectly printed play fields).
The LOTR I had you could tell where they just took a sharpie around the inserts to make it look centered more, Ha! No biggie, didn't make the game any less fun.
Quoted from chessiv:Light board failures. Machines not booting. Play fields chipping. Wires not properly crimped. The list goes on and on. JJP build quality is no better than stern. Oh! Static spray to stop your machine from failing. That will always be a classic!
Those items have been fixed and addressed for a while now. WOZ was JJP's first game so of course there was going to be some challenges and learning curves. They corrected the light board failures and sent out replacement boards to customers. A new playfield manufacturer was selected and only a small number of playfields are affected by the chipping issue. Customer support has been great from what I've heard for other issues. Do I think that people with a chipped playfield should receive a new one free of charge even if their game is out of warranty? Yes. Sadly that isn't happening but at least JJP is sending out mylar kits free of charge so that customers can ensure it won't happen to their games if they are worried. I would be more concerned if JJP did nothing about the issues above.
Is JJP's quality better then Sterns? I would say so after seeing how well they addressed the issues above and the state of WOZ games coming off the line today. Stern has making pins for years and we are hearing problems of playfield chipping on new games (MET pro LED) and other issues. Stern should have far better quality then JJP with all of their experience.
Quoted from vid1900:Agreed.
"Although when you only put out one game every 5 years, you have plenty of time to get the code right..." - - - - - Devil's Advocate
Actually if you remember WOZ was released almost two years late and at the time of release had what was basically Alpha software. Sure they had fixed it within 6-9 months, but they out-Sterned Stern on this one. Now bring on The Hobbit. We have been hearing all kinds of cool stuff that they are *beginning* to work on in the software, yet we were led to believe the game was ready for release last December??? I see a pattern here. Maybe by the time it finally ships, they will have good software, but this is certainly nothing to brag about considering the amount of time they have had.
Quoted from cooked71:Kiss LE has an $8790 msrp. Whether you like the game or not, with WOZ there is no question you are getting $700 more game. No matter which way you look at it (build quality, toys, technology, innovation, standard features), if KISS LE is $8790, WOZ should be $10000!
Obviously making WOZ at the original price point has not been profitable - the build cost is just too high. As a previous poster said, this is just a way to ease us into the new "realistic"/profitable pricing for future releases....Hobbit and Lawlor. Intentionally or not, JJP Is being positioned at the very luxury end of the market. It's the Rolls Royce to Sterns Ford.
Wow, didn't expect 14 down votes on that post.
Let me clarify a couple of things.
Firstly, I literally have a WOZ and a MOPLE sitting side by side at home. Not sure how many of the 14 down voters either own a WOZ, or have a Stern LE sitting right next to a WOZ. But the difference is like night and day. And I'm not talking about how heavy WOZ is. If we just take the superficial differences - WOZ has Invisiglass, WOZ has a shaker, Pearl finish powder coat trip, LED topper, Headphone jack/volume adjust, Large LCD display - there's almost $1000 already. If I have to add those features to my MOPLE - Invisiglass $350, Topper $190, Headphone jack $100, Upgrade powder coat $100?, Colour dmd $399, Shaker $200.
Thats without considering the rest of the game - wide body, 5 flippers, and 2 detailed upper PF's, Sculpted tree pop bumpers, crystal ball, levitating monkey etc etc etc. The list goes on and on. There is absolutely no way a Stern LE can stack up against the current WOZ production.
Secondly, my WOZ is a very late build (October 14). Apart from the odd screw and switch adjustment, it has played perfectly out of the box. (Same sort of fine tuning I had to do with MOPLE out of the box - 2 replacement magnet boards?)
Thirdly, I'm in no way criticising Stern - I own a few, and in all honesty, the MOPLE gets many more plays than WOZ. MOPLE is by far my favourite game. But my post wasn't about playability/fun.
Maybe Rolls Royce to Ford was a slight exaggeration, but you get the point. I think JJP have to position themselves at the top end, because there is no way they can complete with Stern's pro's. Stern Pro's are fantastic value for money (if you can call any NIB pin "value for money"). Stern LE's not so much. But we all know that and still buy them.
Quoted from cooked71:Wow, didn't expect 14 down votes on that post.
You're probably getting downvoted because you're comparing the actual, real cost of WOZ, against a fake # for Kiss. No one pays MSRP for Stern games. It's disingenuous to quote it when doing a comparison.
Quoted from PanzerFreak:Those items have been fixed and addressed for a while now. WOZ was JJP's first game so of course there was going to be some challenges and learning curves.
Sure. I think that's a reasonable and fair attitude. Thing is, you can't admit that, and then go OMG WOZ QUALITY BEST EVAR. It's just another pinball. There's no magic dust sprinkled on it at the factory.
Quoted from Aurich:You're probably getting downvoted because you're comparing the actual, real cost of WOZ, against a fake # for Kiss. No one pays MSRP for Stern games. It's disingenuous to quote it when doing a comparison.
Possible....just going by JJP's official published price of WOZ vs Sterns official published price of KISS LE. Apples with apples.
Are there no dealer prices on WOZ? (No idea since I'm not in the US.)
Quoted from Reality_Studio:Do you guys know for sure if this is still the case? Seems like game rooms in peoples homes are quite the thing now and arcades are somewhat more scarce, so I wonder if a large segment of sales go more to home sales now. I realize they have a coin door on them of course but it's easier to make one version for both markets and just allow for a free play setting for home use.
Even if only one in five is bought for on route %20 is still a big number
Quoted from jgentry:Depends on what you mean. WOZ feels sturdier and heavier made then any stern. It's not clunky feeling like 2003-2009 sterns. The main problem was with lots of new innovation they introduced a ton of unknowns that were not properly QC'ed and tested long term. This resulted in a lot of problems.
DO I think WOZ has a higher quality build of materials then stern games? Yes, do I think everything was properly tested and enough QC was done, absolutely not. Doesn't mean the parts were not quality made, it just means they were likely not the right parts to use.
Quoted from vid1900:Same 1/2" thick playfield.
Same thin playfield clearcoat (some say worse).
Same 3/4" thick cab.
Same decals on cab.
Same painted lockdown bars and legs.
Same flippers, slingshots, and pops from 30 years ago.
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Where exactly is the BUILD quality of WOZ **far greater** than any other modern pin?
People who over pay for game need a excuse why they have done so.
Quoted from ek77:People who over pay for game need a excuse why they have done so.
I don't. The fact that they're a hell of a lot of fun, and they're in my house instead of somebody else's, is all the reason I need.
Quoted from Firebaall:I'll say it again: Anybody that has unsecured money in Jack's hands, better think very carefully about the potential of losing it all. This price hike could very well be the barometer of a collapse.
This is VERY possible.
I picked up my WOZ in a Dodge Stratus............ 
Quoted from ek77:People who over pay for game need a excuse why they have done so.
I have a friend who paid cash for a new Ferrari. I asked why pay so much for a Ferrari when he could spend half as much for a Corvette Z06. He said because he wanted a Ferrari and he had the means.
I love his car and am happy he got what he wanted. However, others who don't like him are jealous and complain about him spending so much money on a car. They remind me of people on here complaining about anyone buying WOZ or any other game over 8K. Some people have the means to buy what they want without the thought of cost. If you don't like it, don't cry about it. Get over it.
Quoted from Firebaall:I'll say it again: Anybody that has unsecured money in Jack's hands, better think very carefully about the potential of losing it all. This price hike could very well be the barometer of a collapse.
Everyone knows that new businesses run a 95% failure rate in the first 5 years.
Sure you could lose it all, but I'm sure no one here put their last $9,000 in Jack's hands.
Yous pays your money, and yous take your chance - Bruce Cockburn
Quoted from jgentry:Really??? Both of those games feel clunky as hell. TSPP feels like it might fall apart when you play it. Both decent games but they do not feel solid to play.
Spidey is one of the most buttery smooth pins I've ever played
Quoted from centerflank:Spidey is one of the most buttery smooth pins I've ever played
True, Spidey was the turning point for stern in my opinion. The games from SM on feel a lot better then earlier sterns
Quoted from centerflank:hillbilly said:
Don't own a dodge. How bout your yugo?
Its a sweet hatchback so at least I can fit a pin in it!
I am so dissappointed I always just figured anywhere he would go Centerflank would just use his Light Bike....
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