(Topic ID: 133931)

WOZ $500 Price Increase


By bobukcat

4 years ago



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  • 507 posts
  • 169 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by maddog14
  • Topic is favorited by 9 Pinsiders

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There are 507 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 11.
#201 4 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

have to be trolling with this. WOZ is far more fun than the grind that LOTR is. Two of my favorite tables but LOTR gets to be like pulling teeth after a while.

I have an opinion different than yours, so it MUST be trolling!

#202 4 years ago

I purchased a Metallica Pro NIB for 4400.00.....best damn game for the money ...

#203 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

You forgot to say in your opinion!

Why would people have to say 'in my opinion' after posting their opinion?

#204 4 years ago
Quoted from Goronic:

Why would people have to say 'in my opinion' after posting their opinion?

Exactly!

The only reason I made that statement is because Panzer said the same thing to me in one of his posts yesterday.

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Again that's your opinion just as I have mine.

#205 4 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

Oops. My bad. This is the WOZ price increase thread. I can't keep my JJP-bashing threads straight anymore.

61053377.jpg

#206 4 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

Pinball isn't an investment

Biggest misconception about pinball, it IS an investment. Not so much for people that stick them in a man cave, but since most of them go into location for play, it is an investment. They even have have a magazine called Play Meter that talks about earnings from arcade equipment, pinball being part of that. Return of Investment is still part of the purchasing decision on arcade games for operators.

Besides MMR, and the pin, when they stop putting coin doors on pinball machines, then they stop being an investment. Even if you exclude operators, tell flippers pins are not an investment. Tell operators that when they sell old equipment, price doesn't matter.

The better terminology should be, pinball is NOT a GOOD investment as there are easier and more reliable ways of making money.

Jack said one of the reasons he picked WOZ as a theme was his WOZ coin pusher was doing incredible on location. The WOZ slot machine was doing great on location. So he figured WOZ pinball would follow suit.

To finish my point on where this is going, for WOZ to have a price increase it can only mean one thing, it MUST BE SELLING. Basic economics. When demand exceeds supply, prices go up. Operators say it is making them money, so maybe they are the ones driving up demand and not the home collector market.

#207 4 years ago

It was a joke.

Quoted from jimjim66:

Biggest misconception about pinball, it IS an investment. Not so much for people that stick them in a man cave, but since most of them go into location for play, it is an investment. They even have have a magazine called Play Meter that talks about earnings from arcade equipment, pinball being part of that. Return of Investment is still part of the purchasing decision on arcade games for operators.
Besides MMR, and the pin, when they stop putting coin doors on pinball machines, then they stop being an investment. Even if you exclude operators, tell flippers pins are not an investment. Tell operators that when they sell old equipment, price doesn't matter.
The better terminology should be, pinball is NOT a GOOD investment as there are easier and more reliable ways of making money.
Jack said one of the reasons he picked WOZ as a theme was his WOZ coin pusher was doing incredible on location. The WOZ slot machine was doing great on location. So he figured WOZ pinball would follow suit.
To finish my point on where this is going, for WOZ to have a price increase it can only mean one thing, it MUST BE SELLING. Basic economics. When demand exceeds supply, prices go up. Operators say it is making them money, so maybe they are the ones driving up demand and not the home collector market.

It's not making any money in my game room. So for me, it's not an investment. It's a hobby. Hobbies cost money.

#208 4 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

t's not making any money in my game room. So for me, it's not an investment.

That was not the jest of my post. Operators buy the most pins. Prices went up on a pin. Prices only go up when demand exceeds supply, ergo maybe it is doing well for route owners and people are glossing over that.

I don't have one in my game room, but every pin I do have in there is an investment. When I go to sell or trade a pin, which I have done numerous times, I find it easier to get a new pin if my old pin has appreciated.

#209 4 years ago
Quoted from jimjim66:

Prices only go up when demand exceeds supply, ergo maybe it is doing well for route owners and people are glossing over that.

No. Prices go up for a multitude of reasons. Increasing parts costs being one. Financial instability can cause a business to raise prices in an attempt to dig out of a debt hole. So no, is does not definitively indicate demand is outpacing supply.

#210 4 years ago

Granted, I live in route pinball hell (and I am OK with that, BTW) and I have never seen one out anywhere, but how many WOZ's are really out there on route? I'm pretty sure that with the ECLE's, the score starts off 99-1 in favor of home retail, and add in however many RR's they've sold.

#211 4 years ago

You don't have to be this guy to figure it out. hxo02znagvy3qah.jpg There is enough warning signs such as more delays, ( i thought all the start up delays where done with after Woz). Supporting and paving the way of excuses for failure in the Popapoop thread. Taking in new money and selling games in front of pre order models (who have been patiently waiting) Insulting his own customer base and people in the hobby. Basically coming out and saying this is a big boy toy that no one needs. The D&B rating. Insiders having not so good things to say about the company. And finally, the price increase.

Need I go on. At this point, if you consider preording from this company, you can't say you didn't know what you were getting yourself into. At least you will be guaranteed to experience the ups and downs and ride the roller coaster of fun, sadness, disappointment, betrayal, anger, hate, despair. I can only pray, that I am completely wrong about all this, but if you look at the facts on paper, things don't look too good.

#212 4 years ago
Quoted from chessiv:

No. Prices go up for a multitude of reasons. Increasing parts costs being one. Financial instability can cause a business to raise prices in an attempt to dig out of a debt hole. So no, is does not definitively indicate demand is outpacing supply.

If prices increase to the point of not making a profit, then the producer will no longer be in business as they run out of capital. So raising prices to get out of a debt hole only works if the product sells. If it doesn't sell, the producer sits on inventory and then has to drop the prices to move it before going out of business, or is liquidated after they are out of business at a reduced price. There is nothing that indicates Jack is sitting on inventory.

#213 4 years ago

He already said he has most of the stuff to make TH, most parts are interchangeable so I would imagine he is sitting on the parts to make WOZ's

#214 4 years ago
Quoted from fatality83:

He is sitting on the parts to make WOZ's

How does raising the prices help move those parts if nobody is willing to pay that price for his machine?

Bottom line, pinball manufacturers will keep raising prices as long as people are paying the price they set. Pinside is only a small contingent of the buyers, somebody must be paying these prices or manufacturers would not be raising them.

#215 4 years ago

It doesn't, I think he is doing this with hopes that people will pay the extra $500 and then he will have more money to pay off the parts suppliers or whatever distributor is causing the hold ups on TH.

#216 4 years ago

How much did Jack have to dig in his pockets for the pre order WOZ guys who bought @ 6500. RRWOZ is now 9500. ? 3K price bump isn't because he can, it is because he needs the money to stay afloat.

#217 4 years ago
Quoted from fatality83:

You don't have to be this guy to figure it out. hxo02znagvy3qah.jpg There is enough warning signs such as more delays, ( i thought all the start up delays where done with after Woz). Supporting and paving the way of excuses for failure in the Popapoop thread. Taking in new money and selling games in front of pre order models (who have been patiently waiting) Insulting his own customer base and people in the hobby. Basically coming out and saying this is a big boy toy that no one needs. The D&B rating. Insiders having not so good things to say about the company. And finally, the price increase.
Need I go on. At this point, if you consider preording from this company, you can't say you didn't know what you were getting yourself into. At least you will be guaranteed to experience the ups and downs and ride the roller coaster of fun, sadness, disappointment, betrayal, anger, hate, despair. I can only pray, that I am completely wrong about all this, but if you look at the facts on paper, things don't look too good.

so when is JJP throwing in the towel?

#218 4 years ago
Quoted from SilverBallz:

so when is JJP throwing in the towel?

When are you?

-7
#219 4 years ago
Quoted from McCune:

How much did Jack have to dig in his pockets for the pre order WOZ guys who bought @ 6500. RRWOZ is now 9500. ? 3K price bump isn't because he can, it is because he needs the money to stay afloat.

I believe you are so incorrect on this statement. Manufacturers raise price due to demand not cash flow. Additionally, I just bought my RRWOZ for 9K from a distributor. It is pretty obvious that JJP is getting ready to move into his next production TH. Once he finishes his paid orders on the WOZ that will be the focus.

#220 4 years ago
Quoted from hillbilly:

Once he finishes his paid orders on the WOZ

There's a real easy way to do that: Stop taking orders for WOZ and finish building them. But that would be kind of hard to do if he's using the money to stay afloat, isn't it?

JJP was supposed to pioneer all kinds of new pinball innovation and bring us into the modern day...it's a shame, and a laughingstock IMO, that the biggest thing they have innovated is on ever increasing price points.

#221 4 years ago
Quoted from jimjim66:

Operators buy the most pins.

Do you guys know for sure if this is still the case? Seems like game rooms in peoples homes are quite the thing now and arcades are somewhat more scarce, so I wonder if a large segment of sales go more to home sales now. I realize they have a coin door on them of course but it's easier to make one version for both markets and just allow for a free play setting for home use.

#222 4 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

When are you?

how could you downvote my post? i was just questioning fatality83, who seems to have done some detective work.

It's obvious JJP is doing very well based on this price increase and the lengthy delays with new WOZ orders. They can't keep up with all the demand.

#223 4 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

There's a real easy way to do that: Stop taking orders for WOZ and finish building them. But that would be kind of hard to do if he's using the money to stay afloat, isn't it?
JJP was supposed to pioneer all kinds of new pinball innovation and bring us into the modern day...it's a shame, and a laughingstock IMO, that the biggest thing they have innovated is on ever increasing price points.

OK, if you were a businessman you would stop taking orders on something that is making you money? Really!! Margin for this pin is already significant but if people are buying at 9+K why would you stop taking orders. BTW, I talked with the factory and TH is planned on starting production in early September. JJP is going to need to expand production to keep up orders of WOZ or backorder the product after TH production. As for pioneering new pinball innovation, I believe he's already accomplished that. I'm no JJP fanboy nor Stern because I own both. It doesn't take a genius to see that the quality of build is far greater on the JJP.

#224 4 years ago
Quoted from hillbilly:

you would stop taking orders on something that is making you money?

Quoted from hillbilly:

JJP is going to need to expand production to keep up orders of WOZ or backorder the product

You answered your own question...they don't have capacity to build two games, and they don't have the funds to expand?

Quoted from hillbilly:

quality of build is far greater on the JJP.

Oh, really? Because I could swear that there's a ton of posts on here about jacked up light boards, jacked up playfields, non working crystal ball displays, and delays on Hobbit due to supplier issues with providers that can't get their damn quality hat on straight...

#225 4 years ago
Quoted from SilverBallz:

so when is JJP throwing in the towel?

Never.

LTG : )

#226 4 years ago

Anyone who says Jjp has a higher quality build has forever lost all credibility in my eyes.

#227 4 years ago
Quoted from centerflank:

Anyone who says Jjp has a higher quality build has forever lost all credibility in my eyes.

Depends on what you mean. WOZ feels sturdier and heavier made then any stern. It's not clunky feeling like 2003-2009 sterns. The main problem was with lots of new innovation they introduced a ton of unknowns that were not properly QC'ed and tested long term. This resulted in a lot of problems.

DO I think WOZ has a higher quality build of materials then stern games? Yes, do I think everything was properly tested and enough QC was done, absolutely not. Doesn't mean the parts were not quality made, it just means they were likely not the right parts to use.

21
#228 4 years ago
Quoted from hillbilly:

It doesn't take a genius to see that the quality of build is far greater on the JJP.

Same 1/2" thick playfield.

Same thin playfield clearcoat (some say worse).

Same 3/4" thick cab.

Same decals on cab.

Same painted lockdown bars and legs.

Same flippers, slingshots, and pops from 30 years ago.

-

Where exactly is the BUILD quality of WOZ **far greater** than any other modern pin?

18
#229 4 years ago
Quoted from SilverBallz:

how could you downvote my post?

Downvote.jpg

#230 4 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

You answered your own question...they don't have capacity to build two games, and they don't have the funds to expand?

Never said they don't have the funds to expand. There facility is big enough to do that. The question is...Is it the best decision to expand at this time. Don't twist my words. I personally believe they will end up needing to do that, but anyone that knows business will tell you there are other ways to bridge that decisions. Such as, adding additional shifts of production, logistically planning runs of both models.

Oh, really? Because I could swear that there's a ton of posts on here about jacked up light boards, jacked up playfields, non working crystal ball displays, and delays on Hobbit due to supplier issues with providers that can't get their damn quality hat on straight...

And you think thats only relegated to JJP? Really!!! You should be happy that JPP is in the mix because it will only bring competition to the pinball market. Don't get me wrong, if it wasn't for stern we might not be having this conversation, because they were able to persevere through the "Pinball is Dead" era. I can't help if you can't see the difference in how the cabinet is built, the LCD, the RGB lights, the programming involved in making JPP. I'm not surprised that a new company has some problems with light boards and playfields. You don't think I had problems with my Sterns? I spent more time and money fixing problems with my LOTR than any other pin in my collection. That doesn't mean I'd ever sell it, but your foolish to believe that pins aren't going to have issues even NIB from the factory. How about the MMR which is being manufactured by Stern? Have you heard of slingshot issues? Guess what? They fixed that issue and so did JPP regarding the light boards so don't flap your gums about something you know nothing about.

14
#231 4 years ago
Quoted from BinGhanem:

Actually it will include invisiglass which worth 250$ and printed manual worth 100$

Is a printed manual worth $100? I feel like I'm in college overpaying for books again.

#232 4 years ago
Quoted from SilverBallz:

so when is JJP throwing in the towel?

Quoted from SilverBallz:

how could you downvote my post? i was just questioning fatality83, who seems to have done some detective work.
It's obvious JJP is doing very well based on this price increase and the lengthy delays with new WOZ orders. They can't keep up with all the demand.

It was a nasty jab, or at least read like one.

He's not throwing in the towel, and you don't start a pinball company in this economy if you're a quitter. (A little insane? That's a different discussion.)

New pics of parts and playfields on the Hobbit update thread. I'm feeling much better about my preorder now.

#233 4 years ago

Did someone really estimate a printed manual at $100? I bet salesmen love you.

13
#235 4 years ago
Quoted from brent149:

Did someone really estimate a printed manual at $100?

This has been covered to death already.

Download the WOZ manual and take to Kinkos and see what it costs.

Then consider the JJP version which has a lot more pages and printed on photo quality paper.

LTG : )

#236 4 years ago

$10k by next month.

#237 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Where exactly is the BUILD quality of WOZ **far greater** than any other modern pin?

They pre-paid and waited forever for the "innovative" WOZ to get delivered hence the nonstop higher build quality rhetoric. Its quite laughable.

Quoted from hillbilly:

How about the MMR which is being manufactured by Stern?

They are assembling it, they put it together with the instructions Chicago Gaming supplies them, your implications are misdirected.

Quoted from jgentry:

The main problem was with lots of new innovation they introduced a ton of unknowns that were not properly QC'ed and tested long term.

Like what? Color changing LED inserts that AC/DC already had or the operating system that I see a thread every few days that their game won't boot?

edit--Oh you meant the innovation of not using washers under the screws to secure ramps, my bad.

#238 4 years ago
Quoted from centerflank:

Anyone who says Jjp has a higher quality build has forever lost all credibility in my eyes.

Quoted from vid1900:

Same 1/2" thick playfield.
Same thin playfield clearcoat (some say worse).
Same 3/4" thick cab.
Same decals on cab.
Same painted lockdown bars and legs.
Same flippers, slingshots, and pops from 30 years ago.
-
Where exactly is the BUILD quality of WOZ **far greater** than any other modern pin?

Quoted from vid1900:

Same 1/2" thick playfield.
Same thin playfield clearcoat (some say worse).
Same 3/4" thick cab.
Same decals on cab.
Same painted lockdown bars and legs.
Same flippers, slingshots, and pops from 30 years ago.
-
Where exactly is the BUILD quality of WOZ **far greater** than any other modern pin?

So the LCD isn't an improvement on the DM?
The flipper coils continuous cycle on Sterns unlike the Williams.
Widebody and better constructed cabinets. (Look again at corners and supports)
Playfield undercoat, graphics shows through. (Ex. LOTR)

I personally think its obvious but to each is own.

#239 4 years ago
Quoted from hillbilly:

How about the MMR which is being manufactured by Stern? Have you heard of slingshot issues?

They built the part they were contracted to build....per PPS/CG's files? If that was faulty that's not Stern's issue. We will never know the exact truth of it, but given that it's never been an issue with other Stern games, I find this point to be exceptionally irrelevant. Oh, I'm sorry...was this thread about WoZ or MMR to begin with, anyways, or is it now more about you trying to throw up as many straw man arguments as you can to cover your opinion?

#240 4 years ago
Quoted from hillbilly:

Widebody and better constructed cabinets.

I cant count how many times I've been carrying Stern cabinets down my stairwell and it completely fell apart in my hands. Big thanks to JJP for correcting that issue and being highly innovative.

#241 4 years ago
Quoted from centerflank:

They pre-paid and waited forever for the "innovative" WOZ to get delivered hence the nonstop higher build quality rhetoric. Its quite laughable.

They are assembling it, they put it together with the instructions Chicago Gaming supplies them, your implications are misdirected.

Like what? Color changing LED inserts that AC/DC already had or the operating system that I see a thread every few days that their game won't boot?

No, Stern is assembling it due to Chicago Gaming not being able to manufacturer the pin. They are overseeing the production but Stern is assembling the pin. So they are manufacturing. What don't you understand?

#242 4 years ago
Quoted from centerflank:

I cant count how many times I've been carrying Stern cabinets down my stairwell and it completely fell apart in my hands. Big thanks to JJP for correcting that issue and being highly innovative.

Don't believe I mentioned that other than I know how to build and it's more solid. Never said that I had a Stern fall apart on me. It is obvious that it really doesn't matter to you how thing are built. Just as long as it doesn't fall apart going down the stairs.

#243 4 years ago
Quoted from hillbilly:

No, Stern is assembling it due to Chicago Gaming not being able to manufacturer the pin. They are overseeing the production but Stern is assembling the pin. So they are manufacturing. What don't you understand?

If you sent me one of your games completely unassembled, I put it together....that means I manufactured it?

#244 4 years ago

The printed manual is something else. Not the Stern - we staple a few sheets of paper together - quality, but large laminated pages (or even from some sort of plastics ? ) that is a complement to the machine.

#245 4 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

They built the part they were contracted to build....per PPS/CG's files? If that was faulty that's not Stern's issue. We will never know the exact truth of it, but given that it's never been an issue with other Stern games, I find this point to be exceptionally irrelevant. Oh, I'm sorry...was this thread about WoZ or MMR to begin with, anyways, or is it now more about you trying to throw up as many straw man arguments as you can to cover your opinion?

Don't really care, but when I see someone totally putting bulls**t on the forum I felt the need to interject. BYW the thread was about the increase in which I responded to your idiotic post. I been working for a fortune 100 company for 25 years and it is obvious you know nothing about business and how to run it.

#246 4 years ago
Quoted from hillbilly:

I responded to your idiotic post

Is this how you speak to people at your fortune 100 company?

#247 4 years ago
Quoted from hillbilly:

So the LCD isn't an improvement on the DM?

You were talking about BUILD QUALITY.

The LCDs are not old enough yet to judge how well they are built. Will they last 30 years like DMDs? We don't know.

Quoted from hillbilly:

Widebody and better constructed cabinets.

Widebody is a size, not a example of BUILD QUALITY.

WOZ cabs have the same 3/4" plywood, with the same loc-joints and metal corner brace that all recent pins have.

Same braces than run across the bottom as a 70s Bally.

Quoted from hillbilly:

graphics shows through.

I have not seen the graphics show through, but I have seen the wood show through the graphics (around the tree pops).

-

#248 4 years ago

Hillbilly at dinner with family.

#249 4 years ago

I'm more concerned about the build quality of this thread. This is summer TV that is nothing but reruns. Same people on their same sides, including the butt hole typing this.

(I can't get a thread eject for not being nice to myself, can I?)

#250 4 years ago
Quoted from centerflank:

Hillbilly at dinner with family.
ยป YouTube video

Well...maybe not. At least not quite. Like the clip though.

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