(Topic ID: 133931)

WOZ $500 Price Increase


By bobukcat

4 years ago



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  • 507 posts
  • 169 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by maddog14
  • Topic is favorited by 9 Pinsiders

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There are 507 posts in this topic. You are on page 10 of 11.
#451 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Then all we can give you is our love.

Quoted from clg:

Ahh thanks vid! I'm actually from California. We go back over every couple years. Last year was awesome, things were pretty cheap there. Next year may not be so good!

Sounds like Vid will make it worth your while if you make it out his way on your next visit to the States!

#452 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

If you placed a preorder at a certain price you already had a contract. They can't just increase the price on you because they want to after the fact.

Unless there is a clause in the contract allowing them to do so. Which based on his post it sounds like there is.

#453 4 years ago

If I pay 10 grand for a pin it better have a glory hole in the front!

#454 4 years ago
Quoted from Banker:

My price didn't change.

Paid in full orders will not change.

#455 4 years ago
#456 4 years ago
Quoted from Slim64:

Unless there is a clause in the contract allowing them to do so. Which based on his post it sounds like there is.

A contract that has a clause in it that says that the seller can change the price later is probably not a contract at all, as it would be considered "illusory" since you didn't really agree on a price. That would mean that the buyer could back out and get a full refund.

#457 4 years ago

Crazy as hell. I live in the US and would never drop 9000 on a pin. I really feel for those outside of the US. But still the NIB pinball market is F*&King nuts

#458 4 years ago
Quoted from HoakyPoaky:

Lawlor LE pin could potentially be priced at 10K then. Absurd.

any word on his pin??

-1
#459 4 years ago
Quoted from chad:

any word on his pin??

Only this... Hi Pat!!!

#460 4 years ago
Quoted from Dalbok:

Is there an option to purchase direct from PinballSales or JJP if you live outside the US? Or do you have to go through a local distributor? Just curious if JJP has a similar clause that the Distributors do (as described by <b>ronaldvg</b> above)? Having the Clause in the agreement that prices can change if the dollar prices changes more than 10%.

JJP does not need such a clause, because JJP sells in dollars. A dollar stays a dollar. If I want to buy from JJP directly I have to buy the dollars to pay JJP, therefore when the dollar is rising in value compared to the euro the price for me rises. JJP will get the same amount of dollars but they (the dollars I need for JJP) cost me more euro's therefore the price of the pinball machine increases for me. JJP did not increase the price.

#461 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

A contract that has a clause in it that says that the seller can change the price later is probably not a contract at all, as it would be considered "illusory" since you didn't really agree on a price. That would mean that the buyer could back out and get a full refund.

You are correct. The price could change with exchange rates and I could also cancel at any point and get my deposit back. Makes sense given the long wait time and exchange rate fluctuations.

#462 4 years ago
Quoted from doughslingers:

Paid in full orders will not change.

I agree

I have hobbits le's left Call for pricing.

Pincades
JT

#463 4 years ago

$500 here $500 there, looks like the hobby is jumping the shark. I love pinball but why buy at these insane prices?

#464 4 years ago

Well I'll say this, I just ordered some PDI glass and its $375 shipped with tax. Getting invisiglass and shaker I guess are worth it.

#465 4 years ago
Quoted from clg:

Given what the exchange rate is doing I'm glad that there is nothing from the US I particularly want right now!

i hope it recovers somewhat, for our planned US trip next year.

"$500 here $500 there, looks like the hobby is jumping the shark. I love pinball but why buy at these insane prices? "

i wont be. what about those with deposits only down ?... they hit with the price hike?.

#466 4 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

Well I'll say this, I just ordered some PDI glass and its $375 shipped with tax. Getting invisiglass and shaker I guess are worth it.

Only problem with that is that when I get invisiglass, I upgrade to PDI.

#467 4 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

Only problem with that is that when I get invisiglass, I upgrade to PDI.

Glad I ordered PDI. Going to make LOTR pop!

#468 4 years ago
Quoted from ledge:

"$500 here $500 there, looks like the hobby is jumping the shark. I love pinball but why buy at these insane prices? "

I will buy another car before another nib pin,and that is sad in my book.............

#469 4 years ago

The extra $500 isn't going to customer service, that's for sure.

#470 4 years ago
Quoted from Spencer:

The extra $500 isn't going to customer service, that's for sure.

Too early to say that -- no one has paid the extra $500 yet!

#471 4 years ago

I'm pretty sure Pinball Star was selling both the LE and the SE at the lower price at ReplayFX. So you don't necessarily have to pay the higher price.

#472 4 years ago
Quoted from PEN:

I'm not happy about the crazy prices Stern and JJP are asking, but then again lets compare these prices against an unrelated hobby...Watch collecting. You can buy a brand new Rolex Datejust for 5 to 10k easy, or a 70/80s used one for under 2k. Its just a watch, that no one needs, and the prices are way more about what Rolex can get away with then intrinsic value. This is nowhere near the case for WOZ. If he sold them all for $6,500 there would be no new WOZ's, let alone a second game.

But how fun is a watch to play with? Pinball is not really a collectable to collect dust. It's a hobby ment to be played and get enjoyment out of. a 5k rolex does the same shit a $34 timex does. You can get the same needs out of either. With pinball it's different. Many different games, many different play styles and uniqueness to them. Ment to be used, played and enjoyed. Not for collecting dust. You think it cost rolex 5k to make those watches? Not even close. They just have a bigger profit margin. Just like JJP and Stern does. Doesn't cost them much more to make a game as it did when Stern was cranking out games for $3400 out the door. just bigger profits. Remember, what it costs you to build a machine with parts made available to the public, is NOT what manufacturers pay for those exact same parts. Not even close. Try around 1/10 of that, when buying in bulk. But good business says, gouge prices while you can.

#473 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

But how fun is a watch to play with? Pinball is not really a collectable to collect dust. It's a hobby ment to be played and get enjoyment out of. a 5k rolex does the same shit a $34 timex does. You can get the same needs out of either. With pinball it's different. Many different games, many different play styles and uniqueness to them. Ment to be used, played and enjoyed. Not for collecting dust. You think it cost rolex 5k to make those watches? Not even close. They just have a bigger profit margin. Just like JJP and Stern does. Doesn't cost them much more to make a game as it did when Stern was cranking out games for $3400 out the door. just bigger profits. Remember, what it costs you to build a machine with parts made available to the public, is NOT what manufacturers pay for those exact same parts. Not even close. Try around 1/10 of that, when buying in bulk. But good business says, gouge prices while you can.

Again, I am surprised Gary and Jack have shown you the receipts from their suppliers. This would be the only way that you could know that profit margins are as large as you claim.

It might be that to create a pin like WoZ, costs may increase proportionally. But I don't have those details.

Saying that someone is price gouging is a serious statement. You have to take the whole business model into play. What is "fair" in the marketplace is subjective. Either way, these assertions and pointed comments towards bad business practices are a slippery slope. We need facts folks. Anything else is very dangerous.

11
#474 4 years ago
Quoted from iamabearsfan:

Again, I am surprised Gary and Jack have shown you the receipts from their suppliers. This would be the only way that you could know that profit margins are as large as you claim.
It might be that to create a pin like WoZ, costs may increase proportionally. But I don't have those details.
Saying that someone is price gouging is a serious statement. You have to take the whole business model into play. What is "fair" in the marketplace is subjective. Either way, these assertions and pointed comments towards bad business practices are a slippery slope. We need facts folks. Anything else is very dangerous.

I have been the purchasing agent for many factories. I know what it costs to have shit made. Being a purchasing agent at a short run metal stamping factory (where pinball parts are made) you get to know the cost of things like VUK brackets, and drop target banks. The cost is PEANUTS. I mean dirt fucking cheap peanuts. not the $36 you would pay for a VUK bracket. More like $1.20 VUK bracket.

#475 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

I mean dirt fucking cheap peanuts.

Tasty!

#476 4 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Too early to say that -- no one has paid the extra $500 yet!

They cant even service the customers who have games in hand properly.

#477 4 years ago

I have several Woz pins in stock and on hand. I was fortunate enough to order a few of all versions before the price increase. I have some going out for in person delivery this weekend. I am leaving in a few hours to go do the first of 4 between now and Monday evening. Call me if you have ever wanted one or have something to trade 2762194663. I try to be fair on trades bit I can trade full retail bit I can make it easy to move it out.

Headed to Cincinnati area Sunday. West Va in a few and maybe back down I 77 this evening. PM or email herron.buddy@gmail.com

Thanks again for everyone patiently waiting. I have one MMRLE too in stock. Stainless version. Just cash as with this current inventory I have over 100k put of pocket at present with the Sterns too. No Kiss LE is stock those had to be prepaid.

Thanks for looking
Buddy

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#478 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

The cost is PEANUTS. I mean dirt fucking cheap peanuts. not the $36 you would pay for a VUK bracket. More like $1.20 VUK bracket.

Yes, but there are so many hands touching every product. Might not apply to pinball, but where I work:
Typically full products we make the profit margins are slim (like $20-$30 on a $300 product), but it's because we do large volume selling to home depot. Now Home depot almost ALWAYS makes 30% profit margin on products they sell. Where we can make up a lot of the money is in service parts. A single injection molded part that costs $1 to make can cost $6 or more as a spare part.

You also can't look strictly at piece price. There's engineers that had to figure out how to build that part (though most pinball parts haven't changed in 20-30 years), there's assembly, incoming QC, shipping cost, overhead of storage, purchasing salaries, accounting, customer service, etc etc.

Still, with all that said, I'm amazed that Jersey Jack found anyone to back finance him (unless he's learned from his mistakes and put together a firm business plan). Announcing Woz 4 years ago with a preorder price, and having no idea what it's going to cost you to build is ludicrous. It's no wonder why he keeps backpeddling his pricing.

-1
#479 4 years ago
Quoted from JIM_Z:

I will buy another car before another nib pin,and that is sad in my book.............

Unless the new JJP pinball sales model is : "Forget the sticker price, how much can you pay a month ?"

I have made three NIB purchases but once any game crosses over the 6 grand mark there are LOTS of titles far less in cost fun to play.

#480 4 years ago
Quoted from mnpinball:

If you preordered, then how did it go up $2000 ?!?!?

Because my distributor kept quiet for 2 years. He is vere very busy, you know, no time to inform customers nor to get in touch.
And of course, terms and conditions are now different from what they were 2 yrs ago, if there were any at the time.
It will not be 2K extra..but 1,5 maybe yes because I pre-paid 3K 2 yrs ago.
Hobbit is (maybe) nice but for sure not 9K nice.

#481 4 years ago

I wonder if he will offer a low or interest free payment plan? With having an investor now maybe it would work. I think offering it would get more buyers than relying on people having to shell out $9k at once. It would for me.

#482 4 years ago

As if 7k or 8k euro is a normal price for a pinballmachine.

The prices already were insain before the dollar went up. This is just a cheap excuse to raise prices every pin with 500 euro or more.

#483 4 years ago
Quoted from Chippewa-Pin:

I wonder if he will offer a low or interest free payment plan? With having an investor now maybe it would work. I think offering it would get more buyers than relying on people having to shell out $9k at once. It would for me.

I can imagine the mess some may get into with making some payments then collection agencies get pulled in...

Whole nother' level of demographic catered to then. Yipes. Resale could get, uhm, interesting.

#484 4 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

I can imagine the mess some may get into with making some payments then collection agencies get pulled in...
Whole nother' level of demographic catered to then. Yipes. Resale could get, uhm, interesting.

Good point. With the direction the price of pins has headed, Stern/JJP, etc are going to have to offer something. More and more people are getting priced out and vendors have to be looking at it as a not good investment.

#485 4 years ago
Quoted from Chippewa-Pin:

vendors have to be looking at it as a not good investment.

A $9K USD machine (11824.60 CAD before 10% tax and shipping), at a 50/50 split ..... I'd be dead before it paid itself off. Well, not dead, but probably in a home somewhere.

#486 4 years ago
Quoted from smokedog:

A $9K USD machine (11824.60 CAD before 10% tax and shipping), at a 50/50 split ..... I'd be dead before it paid itself off. Well, not dead, but probably in a home somewhere.

Exactly my point!!

#487 4 years ago
Quoted from smokedog:

A $9K USD machine (11824.60 CAD before 10% tax and shipping), at a 50/50 split ..... I'd be dead before it paid itself off. Well, not dead, but probably in a home somewhere.

Yeah, I keep that math in the back of my head for whenever I get the notion that I'll start routing some pins.

If I buy a NIB machine and pay the stickers and taxes on it to make it legal, let's just say I'm in $7000. At a 50/50 split, there would have to be at least 14,000 dollar plays to get me my investment back. That's not counting any maintenance, wages, insurance, etc.... I figure it's probably closer to 20,000 plays before I'm happy with returns. For argument sake, let's just say it takes 15,000 plays to get me happy with the investment (i.e., make the pin free for me).

If the pin got 150 plays a week, it would take me 100 weeks to get to that break-even point, so basically 2 years to even break even. That's assuming the machine isn't completely wrecked by then.

No thanks.

#488 4 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

At a 50/50 split, there would have to be at least 14,000 dollar plays to get me my investment back.

That implies the game has zero resale value, which isn't true. If you take decent care of it, you can easily get more than 50% of the original purchase price back later. So you only need 7,000 plays to break even.

#489 4 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

So you only need 7,000 plays to break even.

Only 7,000. And all the labour, parts and supplies (dont forget insurance!) keeping it in decent shape ... add on another 5,000 plays.

Routing pins is a labour of love, that's for sure.

1 week later
#490 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Don't forget, a company can sell a product for whatever it wants to in any given market location.

I agree completely, even though I wish they were cheaper.

If WoZ was the price it was when it was released ($6,500), I would buy one today. Unfortunately, it's much higher, so I'll be voting with my wallet and not buying one.

#491 4 years ago

$6500 to $7000 I'd be buying a new WoZ as well.

#492 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

But how fun is a watch to play with? Pinball is not really a collectable to collect dust. It's a hobby ment to be played and get enjoyment out of. a 5k rolex does the same shit a $34 timex does. You can get the same needs out of either. With pinball it's different. Many different games, many different play styles and uniqueness to them. Ment to be used, played and enjoyed. Not for collecting dust. You think it cost rolex 5k to make those watches? Not even close. They just have a bigger profit margin. Just like JJP and Stern does. Doesn't cost them much more to make a game as it did when Stern was cranking out games for $3400 out the door. just bigger profits. Remember, what it costs you to build a machine with parts made available to the public, is NOT what manufacturers pay for those exact same parts. Not even close. Try around 1/10 of that, when buying in bulk. But good business says, gouge prices while you can.

You don't think Gary adding all the talent since the crisis when he almost closed the doors isn't more expensive? A machine cost is mostly labor and design not parts, Ask Charlie or Jack - they say the same thing. Isn't it easier to ask the actual guys doing is, than to answer all the speculations you make?

#493 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Agreed.
"Although when you only put out one game every 5 years, you have plenty of time to get the code right..." - - - - - Devil's Advocate

And a game is 5x more expensive in designer cost that if it took only 5 years. You guys seem to be missing the games costs include people time and the factory/machinery cost that are fixed and just sitting there. 3 games in year have much less cost in them than 1 game every 3 years. The numbers have to include the fixed costs guys, or you'll never win this argument on price tags.

#494 4 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

That's because he stretched it into 3 long movies. The smaller story could have been great with just one movie. And I wouldn't have had to sit through what felt like 20 minutes of dwarves washing dishes.
image.jpg

Follow the money. They made way more in 3 releases, than they would have with 1 run. $'s explain all.

#495 4 years ago
Quoted from dgarrett:

Follow the money. They made way more in 3 releases, than they would have with 1 run. $'s explain all.

I wonder in the long run including production costs if this ends up working for them. For instance, I saw all the LOTR movies in the theater at least once, bought the original LOTR DVDs, then the much improved extended version DVDs and then the extended Blu Ray version. Not to mention the pinball machine. For the Hobbit, I saw all three on cable and have no desire to ever see them again. It is also not a must have pinball theme either.

#496 4 years ago
Quoted from dgarrett:

Follow the money. They made way more in 3 releases, than they would have with 1 run. $'s explain all.

I have no doubt that they made more money splitting the Hobbit into three than if they'd done the obvious thing and made one (or at the most two two-hour) films. $1 billion x 3 > $1 billion x 2.

That said, Peter Jackson's artistic reputation takes a serious hit in my and likely many other people's minds. He either made a decision that was objectively bad for this project in order to make extra cash, or if you believe the interviews (and I tend to) he legitimately though the story would be better stretched well beyond the breaking point and backfilled with CGI garbage. Which when you think about it is the sadder option, since it suggests that he's no longer the talented filmmaker that brought us LOTR. Not that he has any reason to care about my opinion, but I still haven't brought myself to watch the third Hobbit film. I'm hoping the fan editors will be able to make something of this mess.

#497 4 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

It is also not a must have pinball theme either.

I know this wasn't quite your point, but with $1 billion per film in global ticket sales, it's hard to imagine the pinball royalties are going to make or break them!

#498 4 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

I have no doubt that they made more money splitting the Hobbit into three than if they'd done the obvious thing and made one (or at the most two two-hour) films. $1 billion x 3 > $1 billion x 2.
That said, Peter Jackson's artistic reputation takes a serious hit in my and likely many other people's minds. He either made a decision that was objectively bad for this project in order to make extra cash, or if you believe the interviews (and I tend to) he legitimately though the story would be better stretched well beyond the breaking point and backfilled with CGI garbage. Which when you think about it is the sadder option, since it suggests that he's no longer the talented filmmaker that brought us LOTR. Not that he has any reason to care about my opinion, but I still haven't brought myself to watch the third Hobbit film. I'm hoping the fan editors will be able to make something of this mess.

I would have to agree. Even both of my teenage boys were yawning during the third movie. They stretched out the story with "action" that frankly was grossly overdone. Maybe they are targeting the common denominator. I can tell you that we are done with that kind of movie. Frankly is boring to us. There needs to be a balance....they lost it with that series.

#499 4 years ago
Quoted from iamabearsfan:

I would have to agree. Even both of my teenage boys were yawning during the third movie. They stretched out the story with "action" that frankly was grossly overdone. Maybe they are targeting the common denominator. I can tell you that we are done with that kind of movie. Frankly is boring to us. There needs to be a balance....they lost it with that series.

You're exactly right.

For me, the Hobbit movies were a HUGE disappointment- and this is coming form someone who thinks the LOTR trilogy was one of the best set of movies ever done in the genre!

I've watched each of those LOTR movies multiple times... and I will STILL stop and watch them if they are on and Im flipping though the channels. The Hobbit? Not even close.... I saw all the movies, eventually, but it felt more like I was "checking the box" seeing the final film.... kind of like watching the last few episodes of Heroes, even though I had lost interest along the way.

Jackson "sold out" on this project. He should have made ONE great film. The result was an abomination.

The ambivalence towards the finished product (the films) and the delays of the pin have really sunk much of my early interest in the project. Im still hoping for a great game.... but they both lost me along the way

#500 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

kind of like watching the last few episodes of Heroes

Don't know why you watched the first few episodes.

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