Quoted from greatwichjohn:Thanks I am only interested in the blue color suggestion.
Check Pantone 3015C?
(Topic ID: 48087)
Linked Games
Seawitch
Stern Electronics, 1980-
Star Gazer
Stern Electronics, 1980
Topic Gallery
Halifax, NS
Other stuff will not be adjusted unless there are a group that step forward with suggestions or ok. I am not a art guy & corrections done by the printer cost money. If this turns into a shit show I will continue on & leave the final versions as is.
South Burlington, VT
Updated Unofficial Seawitch pf list as of date/time of most recent post...
The list is to help John get Seawitch playfields FIRST to those pre-paids who 'kickstarted' this project over several years.
At the time of posting all of the pre-paids listed below have either been in contact with John or are actively posting in the thread.
John will offer finished pfs to the pre-paids first, then to 'want-to-buy' peeps.
To contact John either pm him or in the day by phone at 902-402-7188 (Canada)
Please POST IN THIS THREAD when you have received a pf and your name will be removed from the list.
----------------------------------------------------------
Updated Unofficial Seawitch List
Prepaid List + Date Paid
1. Tweaver April 23 or 24, 2013
2. Dazza88 December 13, 2013
3. Jrobinso99 April 4, 2014
4. Evets August 3, 2014
5. Raptor December 13, 2014 (per email exchange with Raptor and John G)
6. PACMAN February 1, 2015
7. solidstate February 3, 2015
8. j_m_ February 9, 2015
“Want to Buy” List
2014
Talon2000 (see post 29; 6 years ago?)
2017
bluespin (see post 905, 3 years ago)
RazerX (May 26, 2017)
2018
paddlepaw (July 3, 2018; see post 1433)
tdiddy (post 1009, supersedes post 863?; 2 years ago)
truemagoo102 (took Yfz450's PM spot from 2 years ago, not sure where to place within the 2018 group)
Chalkey (PM 2 years ago, not sure where to place within the 2018 group)
2019
Tommy42 (see post 1248)
Madmax541 (see post 1432, 1 year ago)
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Other stuff will not be adjusted unless there are a group that step forward with suggestions or ok. I am not a art guy & corrections done by the printer cost money. If this turns into a shit show I will continue on & leave the final versions as is.
The only complaints I've ever heard were the main color of the playfield being too light and the bonus star being the wrong color blue (not too light or dark, just different). Everything else is fine and I don't see a reason for any other adjustments.
Bonus Star maybe a few said something. I do not remember that just about blue being to light in both titles. This is your chance to offer up reasonable suggestions with pantone colors. So the 5 last Seawitch are still waiting on grading while I get the next 9 of 32 in production. I make a few mistakes & lenses that are too far above the surface gets drilled out & hole cleaned. Not often I glue one upside down, the 3/4" trans blue. My small production for lense install is to use Oracle 810 masking to keep them flush with the surface. They are cut by another printer I deal with. I do not pound in lenses with a hammer & board like in the Stern video.
IMG_0144 (resized).JPGIMG_0145 (resized).JPGQuoted from vec-tor:Check Pantone 3015C?
It's close (and looks much closer in the pics then IRL) but the CMYK conversion is way off and too light, which is probably why the colors seem so much lighter in the current playfieds. Unfortunately, I couldn't get photos of swatches that looked like they do to me in real life. The blues basically all look pretty similar in the pics and nothing in my year old Color Bridge set matches perfectly, the CMYK conversion values are all even further away. This photo is color corrected also and I took off the yellowed layer in that spot where you can see some of the white base coat showing through, to get down to the actual original paint.
3015C (resized).jpg
So look for early March for darker versions. I have been busy working on Seawitch playfields, & I have had to spend a bunch of time organizing my work shop. Turns out we could not get a larger commercial space, & now we are down sizing with another pinball guy into the small shop. Looks like Big Game will likely be my 3rd playfield title this spring. No one has contacted me about the latest Seawitch playfields. So I will reach out to Marco Specialties & maybe Ebay to move them along.
Moe
Quoted from greatwichjohn:So look for early March for darker versions. I have been busy working on Seawitch playfields, & I have had to spend a bunch of time organizing my work shop. Turns out we could not get a larger commercial space, & now we are down sizing with another pinball guy into the small shop. Looks like Big Game will likely be my 3rd playfield title this spring. No one has contacted me about the latest Seawitch playfields. So I will reach out to Marco Specialties & maybe Ebay to move them along.
At a guess, I'd say everyone (me included) is waiting for the colour adjustments to the Seawitch playfields before committing to a purchase.
The very few suggestions will be looked at, & I have a well educated other source going to look at it. My guess is by about mid March the first ones will be printed in groups of 4-6 each.
Just finished the reorganization of my small workshop. So back to playfield production. Waiting to see if the 30 tempered glass blanks for classic Stern titles are delivered today. Hopefully I finally get to grade the finished Seawitch playfields today.
So I still did not grade the latest 5 Seawitch playfields. Been working on the latest run & getting some more lenses. The shortages continue! This spring I will have to look at getting thousands made of some varieties since there is no stock. Since I retired the City has had a hard time filling my Pool Operator position. So there is a chance that I might be returning to a 5 day instead of 6 day week shift with the same bad hours of work. Weird world of retiring early at 56 & possibly returning as a new term position for up to 2 years. The tempered glass blanks did arrive Friday.
For reference, here are a couple of pics of my stock PF + plastics with my new one from John overlaid.
So yeah, the light cyan color used in the center star, in front of the drops, and around the constellation animals is much darker in the new one. Note that the new cyan shade matches the color used on the plastics better than the original does.
Overall the background color isn't bad though, but it would be interesting to see one with a shade of blue that matched the plastics.
So likely if anything is done the blue either stays the same or slightly adjusted for Star Gazer. I graded the last bunch of Seawitch playfields & discounted them for most with minor issues. Pro#16 has a brown knot in shooter lane, has minor lines from sanding in the 1k - 4k yellow lense area, & possible minor imperfections $500 US. Pro#17 shooter lane finish is rough (likely no effect on play), there is some heavy epoxy to blue 1" lenses (i will explain further if interested) $550 US. Pro#19 minor chip repair at bottom of shooter lane, some minor sanding lines bottom left & middle of playfield $550 US. Pro#20 1" top blue lenses have some heavy epoxy under some lenses, some blue 1" lenses appear darker when held up to a light source. All playfields have some minor dust in the clear & shipping is $50 US to USA.
IMG_0146 (resized).JPGIMG_0147 (resized).JPGIMG_0148 (resized).JPGIMG_0149 (resized).JPGIMG_0150 (resized).JPGIMG_0151 (resized).JPGIMG_0152 (resized).JPGIMG_0153 (resized).JPGIMG_0154 (resized).JPGIMG_0155 (resized).JPGIMG_0156 (resized).JPGIMG_0157 (resized).JPGIMG_0158 (resized).JPGIMG_0159 (resized).JPGIMG_0160 (resized).JPGIMG_0161 (resized).JPGIMG_0162 (resized).JPGIMG_0163 (resized).JPGIMG_0164 (resized).JPGIMG_0165 (resized).JPGSo I got more lenses to complete the Seawitch & Star Gazer playfield production. Looking like art corrections for blue mid March. There is still no finished art for future playfield titles. So looks like April to start production on my 3rd title. The lense shortage continues with 3/4" purple circle opaque lenses which I have drained Marco Specialties & Pinball Life stock. I installed a new air dryer on Friday, & will get back to sealing playfields with Varethane to get ready for printing. Seawitch & Star Gazer glass being printed next week.
I have 1 Seawitch playfield waiting a replacement in the USA. One of the 3/4" trans blue lenses is lighter in the row. Lenses are a nightmare! All lenses are sorted out by the molding machine id number or letter in groups. Here I compare & group them for the playfield. Even lenses from the same molding machine & production can be off for shade of color or look. So the picture shows the latest lenses needed sorted out on the table. The trans green 3/4" circle lenses made by Foremost Plastics vary from light to dark, from the same molding machines & production run.
IMG_0166 (resized).JPGwow, their quality control is horrible. looking forward to the blue change and potentially having my seawitch playfield by may 
Purple are perfect, yellow opaque are not so bad, these green ones were the worst I have seen so far. Good that people can see the green variance from the picture & get how hard it is to sort them out.
Please post or contact me with any color improvements for Seawitch. Star Gazer is done & I will see the results in 2 weeks. Only discount Seawitch playfields here ready to ship.
Thanks & I had the Star color corrected on Star Gazer. Thought I only had to darken the blue, but might as well look at that also.
Quoted from Chalkey:All the buttholes who were dogging him out about colors please sound off with your expert opinions.
If my Seawitch wasn’t buried in storage, I would get a set of Pantones and suggest colors, but my playfield is discolored with ball swirls. What we need is Classic_Stern and his NOS playfield.
Quoted from dothedoo:If my Seawitch wasn’t buried in storage, I would get a set of Pantones and suggest colors, but my playfield is discolored with ball swirls. What we need is classic_stern and his NOS playfield.
Even a NOS playfield kept in a box for the last 40 years is going to have yellowed a bit. A little magic erasering of a spot under a plastic or post on a worn playfield would be plenty sufficient to get to the original paint color.
Sample of color corrections for Star Gazer. Another real playfield & plastic set used to adjust blue & star color. Any input please! Playfield printing on both titles is in a holding pattern until the end of this month. If everyone is happy with these changes Star Gazer playfields will go in for printing the week of March 22.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Sample of color corrections for Star Gazer. Another real playfield & plastic set used to adjust blue & star color. Any input please! Playfield printing on both titles is in a holding pattern until the end of this month. If everyone is happy with these changes Star Gazer playfields will go in for printing the week of March 22.
[quoted image]
That thumbnail isn’t enough to make a judgement on whether the colors are better. You should really print a sample (just a couple swatches of the changed colors on a scrap or something, doesn’t have to be a playfield) and show them next to an original playfield, plastics, and/or one of your previous reproductions if you want meaningful feedback on any changes.
As usual posting up pictures is a nightmare for me. People working on it want to remain silent. Which I do not blame them. So I will print playfields when they say that is it. Then I will post up my own pictures when finished clear coats. People receiving them can do the same. Your input was taken & like I said a real playfield & plastic set compared to the art file from my printer.
Curiosity question.
What would the playfield to Stern's Star Gazer look like with the fallowing color changes???
1) Light Blue color:
--- Pantone 3105C
or
--- Pantone 631C
*****************
2) Dark Blue color:
--- Pantone 3015C
??????
Quoted from greatwichjohn:So do not know if this image is better.
[quoted image]
it is hard to tell but it looks closer to the current repro PF color than the repro plastic and original PF color it seems from the imagine at least?
Quoted from Fytr:For reference, here are a couple of pics of my stock PF + plastics with my new one from John overlaid.
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
So yeah, the light cyan color used in the center star, in front of the drops, and around the constellation animals is much darker in the new one. Note that the new cyan shade matches the color used on the plastics better than the original does.
Overall the background color isn't bad though, but it would be interesting to see one with a shade of blue that matched the plastics.
Are these CPR plastics or are these original plastics?
Your plastics, in this pic, look to be a lighter blue.
defbb73a995815a832e91ae90dc4529c42df7acb (resized).jpg
Than the one in this pic.
Quoted from cottonm4:Are these CPR plastics or are these original plastics?
Your plastics, in this pic, look to be a lighter blue.
[quoted image]
Than the one in this pic.
[quoted image]
Interesting question. You had me wondering too at first as I know I have a set of repros that I picked up for my eventual restore. But I just checked and the repros were all still in their sealed package. I pulled out a repro sling to compare and check this out:
Reproduction sling
reproduction sling
Stock plastic on left, reproduction on right, on stock PF
IMG_9779 (resized).JPG
Stock plastic on left, reproduction on right, on Reproduction PF
IMG_9778 (resized).JPG
Obviously the lighting really has an impact on the apparent shade of the PF plastics. To my eye, my stock plastics and PF are a decent match to my repro playfield. However, my reproduction plastics are certainly a darker shade of blue than either?
Could there be different Star Gazers out there with distinct blue coloring?
The pics of SG on IPDB are prob'ly 10-20 years old, the flyer for the game has a crazy dark blue pf and plastics, and a real life pf pic has a dark blue pf and plastics. I don't know if you're willing to send your repro sling to John to show his printer to match, but someone needs to do that.
SG1 (resized).jpgsg2 (resized).jpgOkay, one more batch of comparison pics and then I'm done, I promise!
The lighting really changes the shading of both the plastics and the PFs on this machine.
Here's the stock PF, no GI, and no flash on the camera (left sling plastic is reproduction):
And here with the camera flash:
OldPFFlash (resized).JPG
Repro PF and no flash:
NewPFNoFlash (resized).JPG
Repro PF with flash:
NewPFFlash (resized).JPG
Quite a difference in hue with flash vs without.
And another comparison shot of both PFs, with flash:
BothPFFlash (resized).JPG
Those both look good to me color-wise. I'll be interested to see how the new shading looks.
Something quite disturbing is that the "apparently" darker blue reproduction plastics are actually a lot lighter shade when lit from beneath (left sling plastic):
ReproPlasticLit (resized).JPG
I'm not sure that I'll use these plastics now, given how they washed out they look when lit.
"Something quite disturbing is that the "apparently" darker blue reproduction plastics are actually a lot lighter shade when lit from beneath (left sling plastic)"
Looks like the repro plastics should have had 2 passes of color and only got 1 before the white backing. Are they cpr plastics?
The other factor is you're using white (led?) lighting, 1smd blue leds may help bring the color back in where needed.
It's pretty obvious the repo plastics are way too dark unlit, & too light lit. Probably the backing is too thin on them. I would'nt want the PF art adjusted to try to match incorrect plastics.
As someone who takes a lot of pictures of painted cabinets as I restore them, I know for certain that lighting & flash & even type of camera makes huge differences in how colors look. I can be standing in front of a machine that to my eye, has beautiful medium orange paint on it, like KISS or STARS, & my camera phone will make it look anywhere from Tomato red, to burnt orange etc, depending on lighting & flash, distance etc. Pictures will change colors depending on what room I have the cabinet in... some rooms have LED lighting, some have halogen etc. It's rare that I can get a pic to match what I am seeing with my eye in person.
I see differences in the base blue color in the pics just posted of the SAME PF just due to lighting. On some of the pics of John's PF the blue looks great, in others it is'nt as good. At some pint you just have to realize it is what it is.
I don't think any Star Gazers were produced with as Dark of blue PF as is shown in the Stern flyer. That was either preproduction, or bad lighting when the pic was taken (my vote is lighting/camera/angle/negative issues etc) I don't think that PF looked that dark in person, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
I also get to see how badly faded & shifted paint colors get over the last 40+ years all the time restoring games. I bet even if you could find 2 NOS star gazer PF's & had them side by side in same room together, you would see differences in the color, due to a variety of factors.
Without having the exact Pantone color Stern used on SG at this point it's all an educated guess & I think going with what looks good & is in the ballpark would be the best.
Quoted from miracleman:"Something quite disturbing is that the "apparently" darker blue reproduction plastics are actually a lot lighter shade when lit from beneath (left sling plastic)"
Looks like the repro plastics should have had 2 passes of color and only got 1 before the white backing. Are they cpr plastics?
The other factor is you're using white (led?) lighting, 1smd blue leds may help bring the color back in where needed.
The repro plastics are from https://classicplayfields.com/shop/pinball-plastics/star-gazer/.
I would never install blue leds for GI lighting (color-wash, poor light production, etc.). Fortunately, my original plastics are in pretty decent shape so I will just use those.
Quoted from WeatherbyMAG:I don't think any Star Gazers were produced with as Dark of blue PF as is shown in the Stern flyer.
I have seen two at TPF with dark blue play fields. 2016 and 2017. Both had matching dark blue aprons.
So Bob Timm was contacted by the person trying to update the blue on both playfields. He did not have the colors used on Seawitch. Please keep the playfield pictures coming or what color blue you think was used. All the input is being looked at. Seawitch Pro#20 is sold pending payment.
I just texted my contact in Dallas who owns one the Star Gazers I was talking about. It is dark blue with dark blue plastics and a dark blue apron.
This pic is current. About 30 minutes ago.
I think the dark blue apron looks so much sharper than the light blue apron and wonder why Stern chose to use 2 different colors.
Quoted from Methos:That settles it.
Huh? What settles what?
The reason the plastics look washed out when lit is because the modern printing inks are much thinner than silkscreen inks and those plastics probably ran a single coat of color and a single coat of white. Look at a new set of Stern plastics for example, and you'll see the exact same thing.
I once made a set of Frontier plastics using a direct ink process and I ran the color layer 3 times and the white overprint 3 times in order to get enough ink onto the acrylic so that they didn't look washed out when lit. The additional runs cause a slight loss in fidelity but this is not at all noticeable from a couple feet away. The friend who I worked on the project with, and I, decided to optimize the colors for game on, with the chosen lighting, and they came out perfect after a ton of test printing and color fiddling. With the game off, the plastics look darker for sure and there's no way around this. Not to mention that matching a spot color silkscreen ink, to a Pantone swatch, and then converting that Pantone swatch to a CMYK value will only occasionally get you a result that matches the swatch. A vast array of Pantone colors are not directly printable using a 4 color process. You can only hope to get close enough. And the only way to get closer than a software (or Pantone recommended) conversion is to start there, and then make adjustments manually and test print those adjustments to see what works on the equipment and substrate one will be using.
Quoted from cottonm4:I just texted my contact in Dallas who owns one the Star Gazers I was talking about. It is dark blue with dark blue plastics and a dark blue apron.
This pic is current. About 30 minutes ago.
I think the dark blue apron looks so much sharper than the light blue apron and wonder why Stern chose to use 2 different colors.
[quoted image]
That PF looks the same shade as my original, as shown in pics above, at least to my eye.
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