This idea would go over like a fart in church and not a good idea for anybody involved.

Not worth the trouble/expense/distractions/angry mobs for any manufacturers or consumers.

They already do this in extremely limited doses (Daft Punk multiball?) but that's as far as they can reasonably take it.

Not concerned about that and I think it would be a total waste of time and resources with zero benefits for operators and negligible benefits for home buyers.

We discussed all of this a few weeks ago:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/when-will-stern-pinball-machines-be-online

Games as a service is a poor model to follow, we dont want it in pinball. If the game coders are constantly developing DLC for existing games, they wont have time to work on new games. Furthermore I dont want to pay a monthly subscription fee to access DLC or online leaderboards, or new content ect.

Please stop spreading Special K's crap agenda.

LOL is that where this nonsense is coming from?

Shocker.

HELL no. Let’s not turn these even more into video games. Those suck now, and this is part of why.

There is a reason I’m not into modern video gaming but instead love (real world) pinball - the paid DLC model is not wanted.

We can put up with (and welcome) new / updated firmware coming out for our machines, but withholding content so we can pay for it after we’ve dropped thousands for a given machine would be seen as a cynical cash grabbing move by any manufacturer.

There are VERY few ideas mentioned on Pinside that people don’t dump on, regardless of merit. As much as players and collectors say that want something fresh or different, they really want a repackaging of what is familiar. I’m not advocating for pins going SaaS, but if the hobby endures it will absolutely happen.

You are absolutely right.

As much as everyone says they want innovation they really don’t. Pinball is best when it’s pinball.

we already pay enough for beta code
making people wait 3 years for final code is insulting
and now we should pay for upgraded code?????

I think this niche will be filled eventually by hobbiests and enthusiasts who know how to code realtime operating systems and pinball code. Nobody is going to recode a pinball machine to try and sell the new code, the licensing alone could bury those ideas real quickly, HOWEVER, that doesnt mean it CANT be done, i.e. BOP 2.0... but that just lead to a couple of guys getting the big head and building TBL and we know how that is going for everyone. I like the idea, but pretty certain limited market opportunities would limit the amount of people doing it to make money.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-pinball-to-go-online-in-2019

Maybe stern will implement something this year. It’s been discussed for the last few years, but nothing has hit the market

Pinball is old school. Most pinball owners, operators and players just want to play pinball the way it’s been played for years. Everything else is connected and they want pinball to be simple and disconnected from the internet- It’s that physical connection and hands on feel that can’t be replicated or replaced with digital and being online. It’s a game designed to be played alone or with others, face to face where you can come together over drinks or just enjoying a good time. I personally am looking forward to some sort of online potential, but today I played a local tournament and had a blast. Can that tournament possibly be played online in the future? Who knows. One thing is for sure- pinball buyers don’t want to pay for dlc.

The second any sort of paid DLC or SaaS scheme happens with pinball, I stop buying pinball machines. I think it would quickly become like the computer/video game world where games are released with half the content they used to have so that publishers can release three or four small DLC packages over a year to inflate their revenue.

"Mechsuit multiball? That is a great idea Tanio! We'll add it in as part of the Deadpool season pass! Mwaahahahahaha"

If I am paying $7k or more for a pin they better complete the f'ing software for free.

The first two conditions have been entrenched for years and yet people still keep paying.

Both of the two companies have already borrowed heavily from the video game industry and their fake limited/deluxe versions of what should be a standardised product.

At the current rate that Stern/JJP only seem interested in appealing to the upper income bracket of the market I see the third one happening in the next 2-4 years.

There would be some online griping as per the norm but then would easily slip back to the same old FOMO mindset.

I think adding a licensing fee for call outs or music might be feasible. Imagine a popular film where licensing the music would reduce profits for the manufacturer so they don't invlude it. BUT, if buyers had the option to include it in a Premium/LE/CE or extra fee manufacturers may start to include that in the game, vs. Generic tunes. Look at pinsound, people pay like $200 bucks to get their machines to sound better, or a shaker. Getting a better callout library like Clelands TWD straight from the factory would probably be a quite popular add on feature.

Exactly. This idea sucks ass. This same crap is ruining modern video games. Why on Earth even suggest it for pinball? If any pin manufacturer puts their pins online amd tries this crap they are dead to me.

I'd like to see them add Internet Connectivity and adopt a F2P model like mobile games. You get a machine for free, but have to pay for microtransactions to unlock features

Mr Houdini-
Didn’t I just read about your chipped playfield ordeal on a brand new 10k+ machine?

Would it be reasonable to suggest getting the basics right including shipping on time and full code before new ways to charge us more money?

The question referred to JJP, but I could already see Stern providing machines that have only the code to boot up the machine. Any other update would be extra and priced separately: basic update, expert update, limited master update, superlimited master update etc...

Stern has already lost a lot of NIB buyers who rightly refuse to buy a game with incomplete code. They would lose many more if they go to the pay for upgrade model.

You think people enjoyed paying $60 for those Star Wars games and finding ou they had to pay $60 more to get the whole game? How fast did those hit the bargain bin? It's a shit model. As a customer you'd have to be a moron to engourage it.

The sad thing is the way companies are, I could see this happening in some way. The other sad thing is that people will still buy it. The problem with the 'fix it/add it later' mentality is that then there is no rush to get anything beyond rudimentary code out the door. It is already pretty bad now, which is IMO pathetic given the price of these things. DLC generally is not thought of later, but planned from the beginning. You do not want that in pinball. After a few years and different opinions and a redesign/addition of code as an offering is not a bad idea in itself. There are lots of examples of this in pinball history, but once you start with the notion you are going to release paid DLC, companies will cut corners where they can to maximize profits of said code. It's just the nature of the greedy state of capitalism we are in.

Look at the video game industry as an analogy and you'll find more instances of pissed off customers from companies abusing these practices then you will find successes.

Games being shipped with a tutorial, and then require a day one download to play any worthwhile content is where this will go. Your dream of add on content will never happen, it's just an excuse for companies to ship a half assed product

That's the problem. The idea of new code is not a bad one. The idea of complete code rewrites (even paid) is not bad in itself either. The issue is that companies have proven time and again they are assholes. There's making a profit based on a quality product, and then there's the planned out raping of your customers by cutting corners, lowering quality, and packaging the 'fixes' that should have been there in the first place. Most companies choose the latter when left to their own decisions.

As someone inside the video game industry I assure you this is completely false. The vast majority of consumers enjoy paying for additional content. There is a very vocal minority that rants and raves endless online but make no mistake they are small minority. It's all about hitting the right balance some games get it wrong but having a properly balances economy is a huge part of a game being popular and successful with it's players. Drop the economy out of Fortnight and it would be dead in a matter of days.

No thank you, 1000 times over. Keep that business model to your Xbox, PC and PS4 please.
If companies are going to sell pinball machines, lets keep them as such. I also own arcade games, they get very little play as it is. Port what you will to video game platforms, tinker away and enjoy.
I myself do not wish to spend thousands of dollars for a new piece of equipment, only to have additional fees "available by request".
Just make it right the first time. Don't sell something partially complete and wrap a "Keep it fresh and new" ribbon on it.
If there is going to be a code update, let it be for correcting any found issues after release.
If the creative minds have more to offer, put that insight to use on a new machine.

Feel free to add a "You kids get off of my lawn" or "Millennials are ruining ___ now too."

left to their own devices, they probably would.

F2P games are not the same thing. There's a 'pokemon' mentality associated with games like Fortnite that companies have tapped into. A better comparison would be the recently released and much maligned Shadow of War, or even any Call of Duty game since 4. Planned microtransactions and day 1 DLC are widely looked down upon. The problem is stupid 'gotta have it' people buy them day one (or preorder) and then complain about it like they expected something different.

This is pretty much what you will end up with in the end when this concept follows its full progression. You'll basically get a game with little more than being able to bat the ball around, everything else will be extra. Why on earth would anyone suggest this model?

You are just seeing it with skew of media and the vocal minority on the internet. The numbers do not lie. People want and expect DLC and micro transactions. The only time a game will not have them is if the studio intentional wants to limit its run. Its like the film industry sometimes you want to a game to fill a hole in you release schedule and you do not want it to cannibalize you next release. That is the only reason not to include post ship content. Your player base is much happier and much more likely to continue to play when they are included. Game with post ship content done well are by far the most popular.

Pinball machines with post ship content would dominate the popularity charts.

P.S. I only mention Fortnight because I have an NDA and can't discuss any game I actually work on.

Enjoy paying for additional content? I am not even going to finish my comments because they won't be nice.

I'm not in that demographic myself and found it hard to comprehended. Years of consumer data doesn't lie and with experience you learn that it is what people want. That very vocal minority that complain the most online tend to be very hypocritical and more often than not the biggest spenders. You can voice your opinion it's not going to bother me any.

It's the same with anything, people get attached to what they love and it makes them feel good to invest in it. If they offered special editions of this season of GoT with additional content, fans would rejoice and throw money at it. It doesn't make them stupid or just unable to control them self and the, I gotta have it attitude, its just the way human beings work. It's why people spend on mods, they love the machine they want to invest in it and make it unique. Why should the creators not be part of that.

I love the idea of WIFI which would add the ability to do a firmware version check much like Windows does for updates. Also could be used as a manufacturer communication tool to convey machine specific updates on issues being reported and looked at/status (one time only per message).

Now let's look at Golden Tee and Big Buck Hunter. World wide hall of fame. That's cool but most arent going to pay for a subscription.

As far as additonal updates.... super bad idea. You already paid, updates should be free. And if another coder stepped up we'd likely see an IP battle happen like what Wayne did to so many who were offering code hacked ROMS.

If it was done right people would pay for it. That simple. But until someone does it right and offers it you’re just gonna hear negative energy. Mostly because the state of coding has earned it.

Done right clearly means a polished and finished and stable original code base. Let’s aim for that first before we get ahead of ourselves.

There is a difference between marketers knowing how to manipulate people's behavior and enjoying paying for extras.

This argument always cracks me up, its a video game not a diabolic mind control device. If you don't want to spend don't. It's like people that don't tip, they always preach that no one should do it, everyone is just being manipulated against their will.

Sterns does not want sales from one pin cannibalizing the next so it could be problematic for them, companies with fewer releases a year could really benefit from post ship content. If you only getting a new pin out the door once or twice a year if you can sell updates between releases it does wonders for profitability.

I am not talking about mind control. Tipping is a poor argument. You are comparing giving money to an individual that served you and giving money to a company that asks you to pay to get more out of the experience you have already paid for. I am not against add-ons for video or phone games. I just think greed has taken over and don't want another form of that on pinball machines that are already too expensive for many to afford.

A better argument would be advertising. It must work because they don't just spend until you know about their product. They spend until you are over-saturated with it.

So, in conclusion, not mind control but offering low value extras that some people think they need to fully enjoy the experience. That does not equal people enjoying paying more.