(Topic ID: 169100)

Would you, could you enjoy Pinball if there was no scoring?

By OLDPINGUY

7 years ago


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  • Latest reply 7 years ago by OLDPINGUY
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    #1 7 years ago

    So right now, it's Sunday morning, I've got a cup of coffee, a Hot day, 95, and ready for some swimming therapy.
    I'm away from home, not without games, but I miss playing GB.
    Pop onto Pinside, and get my morning fix.
    As expected, A great read from everyone, but the GB threads have some vocal support and hatred, from some seasoned players. I understand what they see, and what they say, but in putting it all together,
    A great deal has to do with scoring.
    And I agree with them more often than not that code, shots, flow, and control, are the major part of their joy in competitive play.
    I personally don't.
    I play for fun.
    I don't look at my score during the game, or after a ball.
    I check my score at game over.

    If I get a high score, great. No stress, if I don't.

    2 very different ways to play.

    Even my games from the 30s and up, I always saw only fun, when playing alone.

    Yes, when I play with family and friends, I'm
    watching the score...its competitive now.

    But I'd be just as happy with playfield goals,
    and no points.

    Its how I guess I form my opinion on a game...first, am I having fun playing alone?

    What do you think?

    If you are a tournament player and you are playing alone, do you compete against yourself?
    Always honing skills?

    Or could a game you have now be played for fun, points don't matter?

    Are tournaments ever played with the scores covered?

    #2 7 years ago

    Depends on my current goals at the time and what game I am playing. Just depends on the situation. Sometimes I play for score...to break my own record. Sometimes I play just to complete goals of the game. Sometimes I play to see how well I can do without nudging. Just depends but the one thing is that I always play to have fun, and I do

    #3 7 years ago

    Depends on the game. With mode-based pins, the main goal for me is to see if I can get the machine to do as much as possible. I want to explore it - a high score is cool, awesome even, but I want to see what happens when I light the doorknob in TZ, or when I get to the West coast in Roadshow, or buy all the property in Monopoly. That's the main draw. Getting a good score in each mode is like a mini-game, which is fun on its own, but each mode also has its own little narrative pleasures, which is why I don't like GB (or most recent Sterns), because there's so little happening in the modes. It's why I love shooting for the pops during Town Square Madness, even though TZ's pops are a drain nightmare, because the rioting that ensues on the DMD and from the speakers is thrilling. If a mode-based pin doesn't have that addictive narrative pull, then I'm going to have a hard time finding a reason to put more quarters into it. I want to be constantly stumbling across new little creative things, because that draws me forward.

    EM and pre-mode-based pins are more scoring-based. I want to get to the multiball, say, or light all the saucers, or get the spinner going for a thousand. They're more games of skill, which is deeply entertaining in a different way.

    #4 7 years ago
    Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

    am I having fun playing alone?

    I always have fun when im alone and playing with myself...

    #5 7 years ago

    Into the Fire is just as awesome when I get it at 100k or 1M

    Yes I could play without points, at least in mode based games, it would probably save me a lot of F bombs.

    #6 7 years ago

    Back in the day, the main goal was to play as long as possible, then later it was to achieve multiball. Playing with a friend we'd try to figure out what to do and that was plenty fun. Every now and then you'd get a free game- then that was the goal and it took points.

    Growing up, playing more, and reading rules has made the games much more fun and interesting. Shooting modes is great, achieving major goals on the game is satisfying, but I remember most when I get to put initials up, or get a couple free games in a row as it scales up! I'm a competitive person but not great at pinball and want to be better. Points is the most obvious way to measure improvement.

    But- Sometimes just doing something awesome makes a day too- a blinding fast return that goes right where it needs to or a wild air ball or the ball bouncing back from a drain. Even a weird stall on top of the outlane post and trying to nudge it the right way always gets me smiling whether I win it or not.

    #7 7 years ago

    Sure! Sometimes

    I enjoy doing things like counting drop targets. ( Example-how fast to 50 drops on Fast Draw; golden horseshoes after all targets down count double, tilt =-5)

    I enjoy seeing how many consecutive ramps can be hit. (Example- Boney Beast ramps on Scared Stiff or right ramp fuel lane combos on Metallica)

    I enjoy playing games where a major feature is a penalty. (Example electric chair death penalty on Metallica. Start Sparky multiball, game over)

    I enjoy counting how many tap passes can be done before hitting any switch.

    All of them are still forms of counting or scoring.

    Lots of ways to enjoy playing pinball

    #8 7 years ago

    Pretty much have to as the new games being made have low scoring as Sterns and JJP when you play them. Bring back the Big points from games in the past.

    #9 7 years ago

    There's nothing like the Journey to the wizard mode, regardless of points.

    #10 7 years ago
    Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

    But I'd be just as happy with playfield goals,
    and no points.

    This x1000.

    Remember when video games were all about points? You'd play pacman, and every level was more of the same, just harder. That's how pinball is, and always has been.

    Then Super Mario Brothers came on the scene, and there were worlds, all different from the next. They retained the points counter, but did anyone ever actually look at it? I never did... I don't think anyone else did either.

    Now, granted, as pinball machines have gotten more complex with their deeper rules, I can see why they never adopted this in an arcade setting. People in arcades drop a couple of quarters in to have a quick game and forget about life for a while. They won't take the time to figure out the deep strategies and code idiosyncrasies. However, in the home environment, I can see a pinball machine with heavy emphasis on deep rules with a linear progression--maybe with some built in secrets to skip "levels" in the rules to progress deeper in the gameplay for repeat use (sorta like the warp pipes in Mario). Each level is different from the next, with different music, different strategies, and you must beat the mode to continue to the next.

    That might be a little too radical for Stern, however, I feel as though JJP's game architecture is built to deliver an experience like that in spades.

    #11 7 years ago

    Interesting comparison between JJP and Stern...I never thought of it that way

    Are there guys so competitive that scoring
    The most points, reading rules and strategy is
    The only approach?
    I generally don't read the rules. myself.

    I had a guest over, he didn't know I had a GB
    and was excited to play.
    But he took out his phone to read the rules and
    Strategy, before launching his first ball!

    I'm greatly pleased to read the replies made!!!
    Thank you!

    #12 7 years ago

    This is why I look for good writing in pins, as well. Imagine if they hadn't worked with Second City on MM, the kind of lame, stodgy non-jokes we'd have gotten. "You hit my castle, you fiend!" "Yikes, that's a scary dragon!" "Wackadoo, I'm a troll!"

    #13 7 years ago

    With GBLE I don't care one iota about points.

    I just have fun playing the ladders and simply enjoying the pin and getting through the goals

    #14 7 years ago

    It seems like most of the non-add-a-ball EM guys don't give a rat's ass about scoring, it's all about winning replays to most of them. Because that's what the "goal" of the games basically is if they're single-player.

    I've played my Comet ($500 and BEAUTIFUL) without displays for months because I can't afford the new ones/not very motivated to spend that much on crappy reproduction displays.

    At the same time, I find myself disliking woodrails because the scoring is so confusing to try and easily read and can be so vague, meaning usually only the higher amounts would change because of score inflation, but it's a lot less cool than fake digits. Feels so hard to keep track of your best score. Maybe I just don't love woodrails, but I'm trying, and it looks like soon I am picking up my first. I want one but do not want two(+), basically.

    I think it's important, but honestly I can just kick a ball around and aim for stuff and have a hell of a time, and I do this a lot on my fun games which need reel repair or something like that and don't score correctly.

    #15 7 years ago

    My favorite games are the ones based on objectives or advancing a story, rather than score. It's become the main factor when deciding what machines would have longevity in my collection.

    On a related note, I much prefer wedgeheads to multi-player EM's.

    Ed: points do matter when I'm approaching an extra ball threshold.

    #16 7 years ago
    Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

    Or could a game you have now be played for fun, points don't matter?

    Yes! Usually trying to win another level, or as many as possible. On EMs a similarity to a higher level would be getting the 'Special Lit'.

    #17 7 years ago

    Yes, good question and thank you for that. Frankly answered, it's never been for scores for me, but rather specials. I'm 53 now, so I'm rather the 8 Ball (Deluxe) guy.

    #18 7 years ago
    Quoted from Otaku:

    It seems like most of the non-add-a-ball EM guys don't give a rat's ass about scoring, it's all about winning replays to most of them. Because that's what the "goal" of the games basically is if they're single-player.
    I've played my Comet ($500 and BEAUTIFUL) without displays for months because I can't afford the new ones/not very motivated to spend that much on crappy reproduction displays.
    At the same time, I find myself disliking woodrails because the scoring is so confusing to try and easily read and can be so vague, meaning usually only the higher amounts would change because of score inflation, but it's a lot less cool than fake digits. Feels so hard to keep track of your best score. Maybe I just don't love woodrails, but I'm trying, and it looks like soon I am picking up my first. I want one but do not want two(+), basically.
    I think it's important, but honestly I can just kick a ball around and aim for stuff and have a hell of a time, and I do this a lot on my fun games which need reel repair or something like that and don't score correctly.

    Every game is different. On BOP 2.0 I care little about the score as the ultimate goal is to get to metamorphosis.

    And then go back 60 years to the woodrails.

    Some of the Gottliebs are pure genius and when I play 1955 Sweet Add A Line my goal is to get specials, and I bought the game to try and experience the ultimate jackpot of winning 26 specials by completing the game.

    Of course I haven't done it but even while testing the game, the sound of 26 specials i.e 26 cracks of the knocker is pure pinball nirvana and matches any current Stern game I have had.

    #19 7 years ago

    I don't care about points in pinball, but can see if your interested in competition that would be a different experience. This had me wonder and don't really think about points in video games either. I'm more interested in playing and improving. When playing pinball I'm paying attention to how long I can maintain control of the ball and how many attempts to hit challenging shots etc.

    #20 7 years ago
    Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

    But I'd be just as happy with playfield goals,
    and no points.

    This about sums it up for me. I'd like to play a story or adventure. Points are just a pissing contest at the end of the game.

    #21 7 years ago

    I've never played "for points". I rarely pay attention to the score or what game features will earn you the most points. Although, million point or jackpot shots tend to be satisfying.

    I've always played for modes & rules, getting multiball, and advancing through the game in order to "beat" the game, since that was always the most fun for me. I also like it when game mechanics interact with and react to the ball in some way, rather than just sitting there on the playfield like a bump on a log.

    Now, even though I like rules, modes, & multiball, I rarely even read the rules the first few times I play. I just launch the ball, bat it around, shoot for the blinking lights, and see what happens. After I start getting into the game some more, then I actually read what the rules are.

    #22 7 years ago

    Hmmm, not sure how this topic hasn't devolved into some participation trophy false sense of achievement argument. Sure, if you are the only one that ever plays your pin, and you don't care about comparing yourself to others, then score doesn't matter. However, there is a lot of fun to be had and a sense of accomplishment by learning and achieving all of the flow/story of a given pin. With that stated, however, scoring is a biproduct of these achievements. If you have any inkling of competitive spirit you want to beat yourself by doing better than before. Likewise, if you think you are good and have it all figured out only to learn that countless others are significantly better than you, then often this can drive you to play more, become better, and ultimately give you more pleasure and emotional involvement when playing.

    I must admit, I am uber competitive in much of what I do - work, play, etc. However, I am rarely, if ever, the best at what I do. Having some form of scoring serves as an pseudo-objective way to measure myself and drive me to do better. So, to answer your question directly, sure I might enjoy myself for a short period of time without scoring, but would probably rather quickly move onto the next thing. With scoring, I play more and try to achieve more of the story in order to get to higher scores (ie do better than I have before).

    #23 7 years ago

    On a side note, I wanted to mention that I've had other pinheads dismiss me and tell me that I'm not a "real" pinball enthusiast because I don't compete and because I don't play for points.

    #24 7 years ago
    Quoted from Mr_Tantrum:

    Hmmm, not sure how this topic hasn't devolved into some participation trophy false sense of achievement argument. Sure, if you are the only one that ever plays your pin, and you don't care about comparing yourself to others, then score doesn't matter. However, there is a lot of fun to be had and a sense of accomplishment by learning and achieving all of the flow/story of a given pin. With that stated, however, scoring is a biproduct of these achievements. If you have any inkling of competitive spirit you want to beat yourself by doing better than before. Likewise, if you think you are good and have it all figured out only to learn that countless others are significantly better than you, then often this can drive you to play more, become better, and ultimately give you more pleasure and emotional involvement when playing.
    I must admit, I am uber competitive in much of what I do - work, play, etc. However, I am rarely, if ever, the best at what I do. Having some form of scoring serves as an pseudo-objective way to measure myself and drive me to do better. So, to answer your question directly, sure I might enjoy myself for a short period of time without scoring, but would probably rather quickly move onto the next thing. With scoring, I play more and try to achieve more of the story in order to get to higher scores (ie do better than I have before).

    I would think the thread would have devolved, if treated as competitively.

    Competing, and the thrill of it...likely supported with some winning, doesnt seem to be for everyone, but I respect the dedication and passion of those that do.

    #25 7 years ago
    Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

    I generally don't read the rules. myself.

    I definitely have more fun on a game if I'm familiar with the rules and know what I'm doing. This leads to getting deeper into the game's features (which is fun) and in turn will generally result in scoring more points - another fun thing (for me)!

    #26 7 years ago

    When I first see your post I instantly thought ...no I wouldn't enjoy pinball with no scoring. Now that I think more about it though, its fun and challenging to try and get certain modes. The only time score really matters is when playing with friends, other than that trying to get into a certain mode or whatever is fun. Good topic!

    #27 7 years ago

    This is a very interesting concept! With the advent of the lcd the potential for game scoring could be obsolete. Imagine a good flow modern game that would display diferent graffix for different shots and combos achieved, something like No Fear comes to mind. The longer you play and the further you progress could lead to some serious eye candy and pin porn with todays modern graffix. This would be awesome for a game on location where others are watching.

    #28 7 years ago

    Absolutely, as long as there is an objective or pay off for completing a pre described task. FUN FUN FUN

    #29 7 years ago

    Would you enjoy women if there was no scoring?

    #30 7 years ago
    Quoted from Sticky:

    Would you enjoy women if there was no scoring?

    Do you enjoy hanging out with your male buddies even though you don't score with them (Maybe? )

    As for pinball, I just enjoy playing, but I also enjoy playing for a high score if I notice that I'm having a particularly good game or when playing with friends.

    #31 7 years ago

    I always focus and the gameplay first when building my games, scoring is always secondary. As a game designer I hate it when I see players blindly focusing on the score and ignoring the fun that's happening. We work hard to create all that fun stuff!

    #32 7 years ago
    Quoted from Playmatic:

    Do you enjoy hanging out with your male buddies even though you don't score with them (Maybe? )
    As for pinball, I just enjoy playing, but I also enjoy playing for a high score if I notice that I'm having a particularly good game or when playing with friends.

    I don't want to score with my male buddies.

    I do want to score with women and pinball machines as it's part of the experience. The part I like the best anyway.

    #33 7 years ago
    Quoted from SLAMT1LT:

    I always focus and the gameplay first when building my games, scoring is always secondary. As a game designer I hate it when I see players blindly focusing on the score and ignoring the fun that's happening. We work hard to create all that fun stuff!

    What games have you designed?

    #34 7 years ago
    Quoted from TopMoose:

    On a side note, I wanted to mention that I've had other pinheads dismiss me and tell me that I'm not a "real" pinball enthusiast because I don't compete and because I don't play for points.

    IMO serious competition in games meant for fun (same with video games like Smash Bros.) is stupid and gets way too serious, but that's just my opinion.

    Some of the pinball competition can make me cringe. Sometimes stuff like PAPA can make pinball feel so corporate and stern. (no double pun intended)

    Don't fret it.

    I do love me some friendly competition though, especially when the other person/people are pretty good.

    #35 7 years ago

    My priorities are game progression related (unless playing competitively which doesn't happen often).

    As such, I'm most frequently trying to achieve something: the wizard mode, seeing more of a mode, completing an activity, getting extra balls (so I can see more of the game), etc. To me the score is simply something that comes along for the ride (but may take over temporary priority in order to obtain a replay).

    #36 7 years ago

    I love playing through modes an trying to relight them to start another one, not so much when there all stacked up like TSPP prefer mode based games like RS where u can't stack, play the mode travel a certain amount of miles to relight the next city an play another city trying to get to the west coast, also enjoy trying to get through the modes on Avatar to keep them lit for the next ball trying to make it to make it to final battle, also love the modes on LOTR I'm just can't see how I'm ever going to get to the end of, so yeah I play to try an get further into the game rather than score, but I'm not complaining if I get my name on the board while trying..

    #37 7 years ago

    Kings of Steel. If you don't want scoring, that is the game you should own. All of the scoring is about one target. You completely ignore the rest of the game. So if you play it like a pinball machine, you have reached a zen place.

    Scoring is an interesting artifact when playing alone, and required for competition. I can't imagine playing in league without scoring. Sure, there would still be pizza and beer, but a fumble of the pinball would have no meaning because it would have no impact on your tally. It would take that entire aspect out of league nights.

    Of course, games like LOTR and WOZ are achievement based. All that matters is how far you get, but for the rest, it's all about winning against everyone else.

    #38 7 years ago

    When I'm at home, I never play for score. I'm out to figure out the best strategy to complete the whole game or reach the final wizard mode. When I'm out at a friends house, I'm out to post a top score. These are usually two completely different strategies. Both equally fun and enjoyable.

    #39 7 years ago
    Quoted from Otaku:

    IMO serious competition in games meant for fun (same with video games like Smash Bros.) is stupid and gets way too serious, but that's just my opinion.
    Some of the pinball competition can make me cringe. Sometimes stuff like PAPA can make pinball feel so corporate and stern. (no double pun intended)
    Don't fret it.
    I do love me some friendly competition though, especially when the other person/people are pretty good.

    Agreed. To me, the stress of competition squeezes all the fun out of pinball.

    #40 7 years ago

    When I play alone the most important thing are the shots and the progress in the modes, nevertheless I look always to the score.

    When I'm playing with friends the only important thing is the score.

    #41 7 years ago

    Yes, It would have to be a deeper rule as simple rules do need scoring that's becomes my goal to top my highest score but I could still play them and have fun.

    #42 7 years ago

    Its great that many can play different ways, including stepping back from nail biting competitive play.

    So Ill add to this thought. If there were no cash prizes, how much would tournaments change if it was a trophy?
    Would a competitive player travel long distance to a show, and focus their time as I see now, reduced entry/game play cost, but no monetary rewards?

    Im hoping CrazyLevi will chime in.

    Sometimes, when he shares his view on GB, I cant help but think of Mikey......

    #43 7 years ago

    There are a some story based mode based pins that I would still enjoy if there weren't any points.-games like LOTR or WOZ come to mind. Any game that relies heavily on multipliers would lose most of their luster. Could you imagine playing ACDC if there were no playfield multipliers or Song Jackpots? Or GOT or TWD? A lot of the enjoyment for me is getting multipliers stacked with modes and collecting huge jackpots. If there were no point values assigned to jackpots it takes most of the fun out of it. I also couldn't imagine playing anything pre wizard mode era for anything other than points. I've played games with broken score displays and it's really not that fun if you can't keep track of progress or see how you are doing.

    #44 7 years ago

    I am somewhat new here and so far I only have older machines. And I do like to see what scores I can rack up. These scores might end up in the 10,000s or maybe the 100,000s. I even like to play the older machines, where you might only score a few thousand. So far I only have a little bit of time here and there on the new machines. But I'm not sure I get the idea of starting right off with a few million points, and then going for a high score of 100 zillion kabillion. Score inflation kinda reminds me of this.

    SpinalTap_11 (resized).jpgSpinalTap_11 (resized).jpg

    #45 7 years ago

    ALWAYS play for fun factor myself. I'm sooooo out in the boonies (Oz slang for a bloody long way away from the action) that a pin competition is less likely to happen than an evening running amok at the local house of ill repute
    My small (and far from the pin action) opinion is that FUN should always come first!! If you wanna get all competitive, beat up ya opponents, slag them off, bump and grind your pins into submission, use whatever tactics you like to win kind of thing is your cup of tea then
    all power to you
    My MAIN Pin and Arcade machine objective is to ENJOY myself and to temporarily forget about the outside Crud in the world!!

    #46 7 years ago

    I don't pay attention to the score during the game, only my progress through the challenges. That said, during a very good game I will keep an eye on the score to see if I might hit a PB. Beating your own high score is a personal challenge, and every time you do it the bar is raised for the next challenge. So scoring is not important at any given point in time, but I think it's a critical element to the overall game.

    #47 7 years ago

    NO!

    #48 7 years ago

    When I played TZ back in the day, I was clearly trying to complete the modes, finish the door and get to the wizard LITZ. Once I did that, and did it often, (even multiple times per game) it became about what score I had after completing LITZ. How well did I score in the modes...did I get 8M for Hit Cousin It or 20M? 12M for Mamuska or 22M? Did I just go through the motions and get 600M after completing LITZ or was I playing better, on my game and ending up with around 1B per LITZ?

    After the modes are achieved, it's all about the score.

    With modern games and playfield multipliers, combo shots, double/triple jackpots... I could not imagine playing without scores.

    No, I would not enjoy pinball nearly as much without scoring. Not with how games are designed today.

    #49 7 years ago
    Quoted from superJackpot:

    Not with how games are designed today.

    This is a key consideration. Scoring is a key component of how games are designed - especially those that don't have a story to work through. I believe that a game that is designed with scoring as a minor or non-existent consideration would look quite different than what is being produced today.

    #50 7 years ago

    Scoring is secondary to me...I like stories and modes that must be unlocked.

    I REALLY like toys or shots that are almost never available and suck you into "one more game" to see what it does.

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