(Topic ID: 1335)

Would you consider buying a NEW Capcom Kingpin ?

By Fearless_Leader

13 years ago


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  • 51 posts
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  • Latest reply 11 years ago by triadwatch
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There are 51 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 13 years ago

So as a buyer/owner of Illinois Pinball Co.'s Big Bang Bar, I was recently mailed an invitation to purchase a copy of Kingpin, the latest machine they are making under the Capcom license. The price is listed at $7,000 US, with $3,500 needed to reserve a machine. The letter stated that IPB needed to reserve 150 units to guarantee production, and no timetable was given.

Now, let me say that I love my BBB, and appreciate the fine production that went into it. But it took 2.5 years to receive from the day I sent in my down payment, and the whole manufacturing effort was frought with difficulty. On top of that, the BBB art and concept had always been very appealing to me, and the game plays great. But Kingpin just doesn't do it for me. The art, layout, the power-draining flipper novelty- just doesn't make me want to buy it.

But it got me to thinking, could anyone else be interested in buying a Kingpin ? The only new machines are being produced by Stern, and are all licensed themes. Perhaps someone else with money to buy would jump at the chance to buy a "new" 1997 fresh game...

#2 13 years ago

With the cost of a new machine I've often thought about them doing it maybe like when you buy a new car. It'd be nice to lease a new machine for a certain term with an option to buy at the end. This would be much more appealing to bars and other businesses. I know the slot machine I bought recently was only used two years in a casino. The company puts that limit on them. They then get them back and then sell them to individuals at a much lower price.

Yes I know there are people who route and rent machines like maldoror. It would be nice if you could do that directly from the manufacturer.

#3 13 years ago

Games do depreciate with every transaction and new owner, so it's arguable that this already happens- just not directly from the manufacturer. Your slot machine was probably very well maintained, but saw a fair amount of wear and abuse just from the 2 years it sat in the casino. IPB is not known for their great customer relations, and it's doubtful such a company would be able to maintain such a relationship of rental / leasing in this day & age.

Anyone who was interested in this deal would've had to have be knowledgeable about Kingpin, *and* be willing to pay $7,000 for a new machine. Seems like a pretty steep proposition.

#4 13 years ago

I think I misunderstood the intentions of your post. My apologies. I didn't know there was a Kingpin possibly being produced. Thanks for the kind response.

#5 13 years ago

I have always found those two Capcom games very intriguing. Capcom has been known for making very original games. Big Bang Bar and Kingpin were always so "shrouded in mystery" with just some grainy pictures (see below) and maybe some vids on the interwebs.

I wrote a story about BBB once: http://pinside.com/pinball/archive/big-bang-bar/stories/the-end-of-capcom-pinball

And from PBN: "Kingpin is probably even rarer. When Capcom announced the closure of their pinball production in December 1996, Big Bang Bar was to be their next game with Kingpin to follow, but sadly neither game was to make it to full production. Kingpin was a Mark Ritchie design and - like Fish Tales - features a centre pair of crossover ramps. It is not exactly a time-based game, but works in the same way requiring you to keep a strength meter topped up so you can keep playing. Capcom's use of electronic flipper control means it can implement this in an interesting way. If you strength meter drops too low, your flippers start to weaken, making the required shots harder and harder."

Anyways, the rerun of Big Bang Bar showed us that IPB can actually produce great games. I have played the heck out of a BBB (I know one located near Amsterdam) and really like it for its originality, it's a step away from what I was used to from Bally/Williams and an extremely high production quality (never seen heavier assemblies in modern pinball than the Capcom ones). Oh yeah, and it's great fun too!

But.. Big Bang Bar has a very original design and artwork package. The tube dancers, the fantastic locks (looped multiball), the bright colors, the looping light under the ramp, the clear tube the ball rolls through. Beautiful cabinet and backglass artwork. It's just really, really cool! A perfect candidate for a re-run.

Kingpin does not have this level of coolness for me. It's more a game like pinball magic and not the "bomb of originality" that BBB is. I would really like to play a Kingpin machine once, but putting down $7,000 for one? Don't think so.

kingpin.jpgkingpin.jpg kingpin-bg.jpgkingpin-bg.jpg

#6 13 years ago

If the circumstances were perfect, I would love the opportunity to have the Kingpin pinball, I think it would be great to be a part of such a rare opportunity, a NIB machine made for a select few, a show piece, adding to that warm fuzzy feeling(that we've all got) of helping and being a part of the pinball community to continue to "keeping pinball alive"

Good luck to the people involved.

#7 13 years ago

If I were rich, I would buy one. My real response is, why would you pay $7000 for a pin it doesn't seem that you want?

#8 13 years ago

$7000 seems like too much!Maybe a collecter would be interested,but it also seems a bit risky and since my last fiasco which isn't over yet I do not want to take risks.

#9 13 years ago

The Kingpin project I thought was still in the air.

From what I understand, they were going to produce Kingpin alongside or shortly after Big Bang Bar. It's been a while since BBB was produced, and hardly any info on a run of Kingpin. Here's hoping they do indeed do a run of Kingpin, because the game is very good and fun (not as spectacular as BBB IMO). I don't know if I would order one now, since the reproduction of BBB took many months/years to complete (for whatever reason). I'd rather go out and buy a NIB Stern Batman DK or a Iron Man IMO.

#10 13 years ago

Well, I can tell you what I know. It has been a while since the BBBs were received. The plan was to cap production at 180+ units and not produce any more. Gene Cunningham, owner of IPB expressed a desire to produce another Capcom design, but wanted a break after the BBB project was completed in 2006. Speculation was that it would always be Kingpin, since no other non-production Capcom design was mature. In late 2007, IPB sent queries to BBB owners and other interested parties about a possible effort to produce Kingpin- I believe the price was $6000 then. I wasn't interested then either.

Who knows how serious IPB is with this project? BBB did take over 2 years to produce and had various headaches along the way. In the end, they did produce a high quality machine, that I'm very pleased with. But Kingpin isn't as interesting a machine, and I sincerely doubt they'll get the 150 prospective owners they say are needed. BBB production actually had to be capped, since interest picked up when the manufacturing got underway- I think over 300 people had to be turned away. Of course, that was for a NIB price of $4500, and not $7000.

#11 13 years ago

Why do they do this? Just to guarantee they don't lose any money? Sounds like with BBB, why turn away 300 more potential buyers? Just too much overhead?

#12 13 years ago

I'd say that if you've got the money to tie up in the venture, and you want the machine, and you truly believe they'll eventually bring it out, and you think 7k is worth the machine, and you don't think this is too many ifs, go for it.

#13 13 years ago

I too don't understand why they turned away 300 customers. Unless it would be a major hassle to source 300 more of the parts. But still, that shouldn't be too difficult since they already got the ball rolling. If they make $1000 in actual profit on each machine (as an example) that is a nice paycheck. I believe they should restart production of the BBB instead of doing Kingpin as it seems like they actually have a demand. I would buy one.

#14 13 years ago

I agree. A BBB for $ 4500? Count me in!

#15 13 years ago

The use of original and new parts was one of the reasons given for not producing more BBBs, yes. I don't think for a minute that it was to preserve the collectability and value to the original 183 owners. At the time, IPB claimed that the entire process exhausted Gene Cunningham and that profits were thought to be minimal, if there were any. To produce Kingpin, or any other prototype Capcom design, was thought to be a pipedream.

To invest $4500 back then was considered a big risk- ask one of the other BBB owners. It's probably one of the reasons IPB wants to charge $7k. I'm not sure that it's not a decent risk today, given IPB's size and reliability. But making sure there's a decent demand would probably be a good idea- BBB has this potential, whereas most casual pinheads have barely heard of Kingpin, let alone played one of the prototypes...

1 year later
#16 12 years ago

I just played Kingpin @ the National Pinball Museum and its damn fun.
Its a classic Mark Ritchie design that is fast and fun.
I'd buy one but for $8000, no.

#17 12 years ago
Quoted from HighProtein:

I just played Kingpin @ the National Pinball Museum and its damn fun.
Its a classic Mark Ritchie design that is fast and fun.
I'd buy one but for $8000, no.

my bro almost got to Wizard mode on like, his 2nd or 3rd game there. seemed a bit easy.

The BBB was also cool, but what's the deal with that shot to the bumpers? kind of lame.

#18 12 years ago

Man I was so close too! "You wanna get to the boss, you gotta go through us." So sweet.

But yeah, I really enjoyed that machine. Love the theme. If I had the cash to throw down, I would actually do it. But then again, if you had the cash lyin' around, who wouldn't?

#19 12 years ago
Quoted from PwninShiznat:

If I had the cash to throw down, I would actually do it. But then again, if you had the cash lyin' around, who wouldn't? []

I think I would have one of everything if I had the cash.

#20 12 years ago

Having finally played a few games on Kingpin at Cal Extreme, I didn't really see much in it. The only thing that makes it all that interesting is rarity. BBB suffers from the same to a degree but it has much better art and is a bit better game as well.

#21 12 years ago
Quoted from jay:

Having finally played a few games on Kingpin at Cal Extreme, I didn't really see much in it. The only thing that makes it all that interesting is rarity.

+1 on that I was expecting more than it provided.

#22 12 years ago

Haven't ever got to play one, but that $7k price tag on it would count me out. Doesn't look as interesting as BBB from the pics I have seen as well. I'm not exceptionally fond of any playfields from any previous game of Mark Ritchie's, so I could never make that sort of leap of faith. The next JJ pinball designed by Dennis Nordman however, has me salivating.

#23 12 years ago

Not for that price. I can get a WoZ or a Tron LE for that.

#24 12 years ago

As far as I know, the most critical part when building BBB was the CPU board. IP only had what was in the Capcom stock they purchased. A lot of other custom playfield parts had to be reproduced which was time consuming and expensive and caused the delay. But for the CPU board it simply wasn't possible due components no longer in production etc.

So, for Kingpin to be realisable, I guess they have to design a new CPU board that runs the software through emulation. Like Visual Pinball. And by this, the door is open for an additional series of BBB machines.

But regarding IP there is one daring hope that overshadows everything else. Wizard Blocks. One can only wish for a completion in collaboration with members of the original design team. And imagine a redesigned, and much more elegant, head with NuCore and LCD monitor technology. Aaaaaawesome!

#25 12 years ago
Quoted from soren:

But regarding IP there is one daring hope that overshadows everything else. Wizard Blocks. One can only wish for a completion in collaboration with members of the original design team. And imagine a redesigned, and much more elegant, head with NuCore and LCD monitor technology. Aaaaaawesome!

I would like to see that happen!

#26 12 years ago
Quoted from scooter:

soren said:
But regarding IP there is one daring hope that overshadows everything else. Wizard Blocks. One can only wish for a completion in collaboration with members of the original design team. And imagine a redesigned, and much more elegant, head with NuCore and LCD monitor technology. Aaaaaawesome!

I would like to see that happen!

I wouldn't even know what to say if that were announced. I'd probably have a stroke.

#27 12 years ago

Why do I always have to set everyone straight, $7000 is too little. Kidding. Yes, it's a ton of money, especially if you have never played Kingpin like myself. BBB is amazing, but they are not the same. It's much easier to feel confident laying down that kind of money for a proven winner. But I have always loved the look and layout of Kingpin, and it has a great story too. Honestly, I would would rather have this machine over many other NIB opportunities, but to buy it over my favorites like Monster Bash, MM, LOTR, etc seems crazy. It sounds perfect for the person who has a ton of money, already owns all the personal favorites, and wants to own an interesting and cool machine. If that's true, maybe save some money, and buy an 1982 Stern Orbitor 1 and go crazy!

#28 12 years ago

Played both BBB and Kingpin at CAX. Neither were my cup of tea, but I have friends that liked them. So, like most everybody on here, I say play before you pay.

When Gene presented these, it showed that people were willing to pony up for something other than a Stern, and were also willing to pay top dollar for a quality pin that was rare.

Since this started you have seen JJP, Magic Girl, and now some nice LEs from Stern, so there are other options.

Tough to give advice to people that are spending money on something this expensive. The buyers of BBB came out smelling like a rose.

People, like me, that invested in the Pinball Factory's MM, well that did not work out so well. Not a good decision on my part and a big waste of my time.

#29 12 years ago

My friend owns a kingpin (the one that goes to CAX). I agree it's not quite as good as BBB in most respects but it's quite fun. It's a lot rougher around the edges since the code wasn't 100%.

I asked him if I could shoot a video of it next time he has a pinball party.

6 months later
#30 12 years ago

Are they still going to go ahead with the remake? I can't find anything more current than this thread.

#31 12 years ago

Last I heard, they were still trying to reverse engineer the chip. It is also my understanding that the pre-order price has gone up considerably. I think it's something like 8 or 9K now.

#32 12 years ago

Who knows? They don't have any original boards, so they are having to recreate all of the software and get through the encryption that was on the originals. Gene has the original programmer moonlighting on the development, and has for quite some time. Price is up to $8000 now and he still needs to build 150 to make it work. A lot of people have assuredly fallen off the list and gone to JJP by now. He is still keeping a list, and will ask for 1/2 deposit when and if they get the software issues resolved. Time will tell if he still has the commits, and how much the price will inflate.

#33 12 years ago

It is hard for me to believe he cannot get 150 commitments. With the market adding pins, seems like a shot at something rare again would be hot stuff for collectors.

#34 12 years ago

Here's a gameplay video of Kingpin.

#35 12 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

It is hard for me to believe he cannot get 150 commitments. With the market adding pins, seems like a shot at something rare again would be hot stuff for collectors.

I think that as soon as they say they are actually ready to produce, a lot of people will jump on board. Until that day, it is just a pipe dream.

#36 12 years ago

i want a kingpin

#37 12 years ago

I would be in, in fact I believe I am on the list if it does in fact happen??

#38 12 years ago

Nice collectors pin if only 150 made.

Can't help thinking if there were 5000 plus available this would not really be a dream pin.

#39 12 years ago

I think that is my only hesitation...how many will be made??? If it is mass produced the collector value to me will drop and possibly change my mind. Yet again there are only so many fools on here that would drop $8k on a new machine

#40 12 years ago

I don't see why there would be a cap. BBB was capped so low because Gene was using leftover boards he purchased when capcom went out of business. He is having the boards reverse engineered to make the new ones.

#41 12 years ago

I'd probably get one if the production of them was in the foreseeable future, ie not years out.

#42 12 years ago

There's a big difference between Kingpin and BBB. BBB is very limited edition. I do not believe there's any limit on how many KP's will be produced, and most people consider it to be an inferior game/theme compared to BBB. I don't think it will command the kind of money BBB does unless it's made in similar quantities.

6 months later
#43 11 years ago

Anyone have any news on this?

It's hard for me to find any information on any lists for anything, so I am not surprised..I am interested if this ever gets off the ground but everything I see does not really have the whole story...

#44 11 years ago

nope - no way would I make a deposit and have a company hold it for 2-1/2 years.
What's the chances in this economy they go bust?

#45 11 years ago

If Gene really wanted a cpu solution he would run the program off a pc running pinmame via actual hardware connects. So as far as i see it he doesn't really want to make the game or he would do it that way.

#46 11 years ago

No I would not.

Really the only reason is banking on it going up in value dramatically. Which there is no way to do. If they sell out quick they'll probably make more..and on and on.
Will it end up more like BBB or Pinball Magic. I own a PM and it's awesome. Is it worth 7K? Well I just said I own it so obviously not.

#47 11 years ago

I got on the list years ago...but honestly I don't even care now. He should just make more BBB ...that's what people really want

#48 11 years ago

Kingpin is a killer title and theme. Mark Ritchie design. Would be nice next to the Bar.

#49 11 years ago

Just not interested in paying $7k to go back to the 90's for another remake. Time to move forward. BBB is a cool machine, but I'd say in today's market it's worth about what the original buyers paid for it.... to me.

#50 11 years ago
Quoted from mechslave:

Just not interested in paying $7k to go back to the 90's for another remake. Time to move forward. BBB is a cool machine, but I'd say in today's market it's worth about what the original buyers paid for it.... to me.

I'd gladly pay that for one !

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