(Topic ID: 170153)

Would you be upset if your games lost value?

By Deez

7 years ago


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    Topic poll

    “Would you be upset if the value of your games dropped significantly”

    • Yes - I would be upset 81 votes
      28%
    • No - I just like to play pinball 88 votes
      31%
    • It's just money - I didn't buy these with any intention of resale 92 votes
      32%
    • lionman 24 votes
      8%

    (285 votes)

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    There are 112 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
    #1 7 years ago

    So I feel like I see a lot of collectors out there buying games believing they have some value associated with them almost like an investment. I personally buy games because I like to play pinball and it's a lot easier having a game in my home to play vs going somewhere to play. Also I enjoy tinkering on games, repairing them etc. I just really enjoy this hobby. The prices have skyrocketed since I first got into this hobby around 10 years ago and I've been thinking. How many people would be upset if the pinball prices dropped.

    Here's the scenario - we have a huge drop in the stock market similar to 2008's recession and all the prices of pinball machines plummeted. Answer the question as if the stock market drop wouldn't affect you and it only applied to pinball machines. Me personally would be so happy to get games cheap again. I could care less if my machines wouldn't sell for the same money I originally paid for them. I mean eventually people are going to lose interest and prices will fall. I know I'll still be playing since i love the game.

    What do you guys think?

    #2 7 years ago

    Unfortunately pinball is much like other expensive hobbies.

    When you first start prices are reasonable. Then prices rise due to popularity. And also the fact that most other people in the hobby have now dried up the choices. And picked through the best examples.

    So if you want to start the hobby now. And continue collecting, you need to pay a premium for the items you want. And that other people in the hobby deem to be the best of the best. Also wether it can be restored.
    Try finding any game in the top 20 for sale for under $5000. And if you do, you would have to spend $ and restore the game somewhat to make it a $5000 game.

    Now that so many parts are available. Prices are higher. Because pretty much any highly collectable game can be made better than new.
    And thanks to the internet. Machines are easier to fix yourself.

    I don't care if I lose money on pins. I like to fix and play them. I would like to find a few 90's classics at decent prices. But until they start remaking every title. Prices will stay the same or rise.

    Maybe not on every title. But the titles collectors will always want.

    #3 7 years ago

    If the value of pins fell drastically, that would make lower cost pinball for all of us. However if something caused pinball machines to drop in value, many other things in this world would also be lower in cost.

    Something like an Alien spacecraft landing in the UN compound, or on the White House lawn.

    #4 7 years ago

    The housing bubble is a better analogy than the stock market, which is all pretend money. Most people buy a single house to live in, they pay the market rate at the time, and they live there. If they never move, huge price swings make little difference other than taxes and insurance costs. The issue comes if someone moves... declining prices make it easier for new homeowners to come in or current homeowners to upgrade, and for investors to swoop in. Increasing prices make it easier for current homeowners to move out or downgrade, or investors to unload their properties.

    Similar to pinball. A price drop would help new people get in and build a collection, or upgrading games. It would hurt people cutting down their collection or downgrading games. For those staying in (basically swapping games) it would have no effect whatsoever.

    #5 7 years ago

    Nup, I enjoy the games I own
    I buy them because they are fun to play

    I think most games are overvalued at the moment (here in Australia anyway)

    I have heard a few importers here recently state 'It cost me $ to buy in Europe, $ to fix (to my perfect standards), $ in parts, plus $ in profit. I must sell for $$$$!'
    it does not matter how much you put into the game, it is still old and not a hot machine. it is still only worth $$

    #6 7 years ago

    The money I've spent on buying pins is all pretty much a sunk cost. If they all halved in value I wouldn't really notice, not because I'm made of money but because that money's been spent anyway (at least in my head). The only way to realise the cash would be to sell up completely.
    As things stand if machines got cheaper then I'd get less for those that I sold and spend less on buying replacement machines, so no real difference. I'm lucky enough to have bought a lot of my games at cheaper prices but it doesn't mean I've made money unless I sell up and don't replace them with anything.
    Once you've got past the initial purchase prices it's a pretty cheap hobby. In the UK you can join a league and play all day at someone's house for less than $4. What other hobbies are that cheap? If I go and see a band then I'm looking at $40-$100 for a day (or evening). Going out drinking would cost me $8 a beer and I'd have nothing left to show for it at the end apart from an expanded waistline and a hangover (And a few good memories hopefully).

    #7 7 years ago

    They won't loose their value to me.

    #8 7 years ago

    As long as it across the board it is all relative do makes no difference.

    #9 7 years ago

    No one LIKES to lose money but at least I get lots of enjoyment for that money I spend and potentially lose if/when I sell my games later. To me it is better use than sitting in my bank earning .01% interest.

    #10 7 years ago

    I am more upset that prices are so high just because it's not that I can't afford it, but the threshold for the price of a game has surpassed where I personally value it. I think it's because of my disconnect between "market" for a game and real value of the money I'm spending on it. It is pretty easy to spend more than you might normally be comfortable if the games have a perceived value that they hold and you feel like you could get if you needed to sell quickly. I'm fortunate in that I've been collecting for awhile and purchased many titles cheap. This has enabled me to trade up for titles over time. I'm not sure I'd be in the hobby if I had entered it now just because of the prices being so high.

    #11 7 years ago

    I'm having a real problem justifying a NIB. So many cheaper games that are just as appealing.

    The way Sterns have kept their value is kind of absurd to me as well. I've kind of set a rule that I won't pay more than $4k for an old Stern because for a little more I can get a NIB.

    To answer the question, no I don't care if my games lose their value. They aren't many hobbies where things keep their value as much as pinball. That's kind of the reason why I drive a 67 Jeep as my daily driver. It doesn't lose it's value like something newer.

    #12 7 years ago

    I feel bad for people who have bought titles like Mustang Pro and WrestleMania.
    Both fun games, don't get me wrong, but the bottom has dropped out on them.
    Having said that, those same people bought those titles because they like the topic.
    I just enjoy them and keep don't let their value get in the way of my next play.

    #13 7 years ago

    as long as my games don't lose their "fun" im happy

    #14 7 years ago

    The hobby has changed in the last say five years. For exampble: Titles such as POTC would come out and sell for 4500 new and a year later I could purchase at 3000 or just below. OPs were taking a loss and looking at pinball as a loss leader to please the location owner. HUO really meant something then...it was a rare thing. Now there are three to four times the "player collectors" in the hobby which is great but has changed the landscape of resale of pins. Today games that tanked like 24- CSI and even IJ4 sell at or for more than what they cost new.

    All that being said, to me is a gamble every time you buy a NIB. Will it be a hit with the community or a bomb. Bombs dont sell out of the LE in days and normally will dip once first demand is met. Best example of that is Avengers LE...which still hover around 5k.

    With demand for machines being high even titles that would have normally dropped 2k in a little over a year only drop 1k. Once codes are completed and the final judgement is made by the community the price seems to go flat line. With all of the new manufacturers coming out I still believe prices will drop as demand is met and then it will get interesting. Once JJP is up an running (rather than crawling) Spooky starts pumping them out along with the EU others the pricing should get better.

    What really makes things interesting to me is the spike up to 10k for Stern. This brings them into the EU market higher than Dutch and Highway. Both of those manufacturers would be wise IMO to hit lower substantially to take get a strong foot hold in the EU market.

    #15 7 years ago

    I dont really care what the market for pinball does, so long as there are new ones to play and I can find the old ones I like to own.

    I buy pinball machines because they make me and those around me feel good and smile. If the prices go down then I will just buy more.

    side note: prices are stalling or going down for the first time since I have been in the hobby. Just my observation. High end is already stalled and dropping. Mid grade seems to have hit the max.

    People are still pumping up early solidstate and EMs it seems as those are still going up (more than I am willing to pay, but appears those are the new entry level game now)

    #16 7 years ago

    Um, I was assured when I bought them that they could only go up in value!

    That being said, I could be cavalier and say i don't care about a big drop in value and I really don't UNLESS I get into a situation where i want to downsize or have an emergency. I now collect B titles to help mitigate the potential pain of a big loss.

    Besides, I no longer believe the higher priced games offer a higher level of entertainment. A Big Bang Bar or MM is not 5x or 10x better than my Goldeneye. To me they're not even 20% better, especially considering the risk.

    #17 7 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    People are still pumping up early solidstate and EMs it seems as those are still going up (more than I am willing to pay, but appears those are the new entry level game now)

    I feel like i keep seeing EMs start to hit the 1k price range which to me is crazy. Especially for what you get with one of those titles. I could see if it were a pristine example but 4 years ago you had to give those titles away.

    #18 7 years ago

    Not sure about the ones saying high end have stalled? I listed my luci for trade but had many offers 9500-10k but i was only looking to trade for a few grail pins and found what i wanted. Also sterns price is crazy almost 10k for le batman and they are basically sold out and people still paying 8-9 for gble. So not so sure the high end pin priceing is to stalled. I almost have all my keeper pins at this point in time so the market is welcome to do as it wants lol but i think things are very strong especially after seeing what some not so nice pins sold for at the show this weekend..

    #19 7 years ago
    Quoted from bigd1979:

    Not sure about the ones saying high end have stalled? I listed my luci for trade but had many offers 9500-10k but i was only looking to trade for a few grail pins and found what i wanted. Also sterns price is crazy almost 10k for le batman and they are basically sold out and people still paying 8-9 for gble. So not so sure the high end pin priceing is to stalled. I almost have all my keeper pins at this point in time so the market is welcome to do as it wants lol but i think things are very strong especially after seeing what some not so nice pins sold for at the show this weekend..

    I think there's a disconnect between pinside asking price and what people pay. I find it hard to believe GB LEs are flying off the shelf at 9k with shitty playfields.

    #20 7 years ago

    I invest my money in the market.

    Pinball machines are electronic toys, the idea of buying with the expectation of selling then for a gain seems absurd to me.

    If you want to invest, I will direct you to Vanguard.

    #21 7 years ago
    Quoted from Baiter:

    The housing bubble is a better analogy than the stock market, which is all pretend money. Most people buy a single house to live in, they pay the market rate at the time, and they live there. If they never move, huge price swings make little difference other than taxes and insurance costs. The issue comes if someone moves... declining prices make it easier for new homeowners to come in or current homeowners to upgrade, and for investors to swoop in. Increasing prices make it easier for current homeowners to move out or downgrade, or investors to unload their properties.
    Similar to pinball. A price drop would help new people get in and build a collection, or upgrading games. It would hurt people cutting down their collection or downgrading games. For those staying in (basically swapping games) it would have no effect whatsoever.

    Which is why anyone not planning on cutting down/downgrading their collection anytime soon should be voting "no." If your goal is to upgrade, increase, or keep your collection the same size/quality (aka: most of us) then pinball prices dropping won't be an issue.

    #22 7 years ago
    Quoted from Deez:

    I think there's a disconnect between pinside asking price and what people pay. I find it hard to believe GB LEs are flying off the shelf at 9k with shitty playfields.

    I know a few that payed 9 but overall seems 8-8500 is the going rate which is still high end pin imo...

    #23 7 years ago

    Try owning a KISS LE

    #24 7 years ago

    From 2012-2014 I saw the demand for pinball machines skyrocket right along with the prices. I think now we are starting to see the prices drop to lower levels. The late baby boomers who were driving this market and price increases are now in their late 50's and early 60's and retirement will quickly come into focus over the next five years and you will see the prices start to drop back to earth. Not to mention the stock market and economy is not good. If Trump wins the market will crash and correct in the next 12 months. If Hillary wins they will kick the can down the road by printing money and that will prolong it for several years but the bubble will inflate more and hurt us all more in the pocket when it collapses. Either way I don't see pinball prices going up in the future.

    #25 7 years ago

    I buy them because I like them ,I don't see them as an investment . I voted LIONMAN.

    #26 7 years ago
    Quoted from Rondogg:

    Um, I was assured when I bought them that they could only go up in value!

    I hope you don't listen to who told you that again.

    LTG : )

    #27 7 years ago

    I couldn't care less if my pins drop in value. Take my $8000 AFM and take the right-most digit off. I DGAF. If anything, all the prices dropping across the board with our incomes staying stable would make it to where more could have options and play some different games (read: dream situation that will never happen).

    Sucks that games like AFM/SS/MB and now nearly any NIB have gotten out of reach for some. That's not what this hobby should be about. This hobby should be about helping others, learning new tech repairs, exploring the history of the hobby, learning the difference between Sys3, Sys11, WPCs, etc., and buying/selling different games and trying new games. I'm so grateful for my local community (my wallet sure isn't though) - I have been able to try/own/trade/sell 22+ games in 4 years flat. It has been a fun run, but now, damn, I'm hanging onto my games.

    You're lucky to even sniff around a NIB Pro for under $5000. And as long as people keep buying games without even SEEING THE DAMN THING FIRST - looking at you Ghostbusters and Batman 66 buyers - the prices will just keep going up.

    There will be a correction someday.

    Someday...

    #28 7 years ago

    I hope prices do go down to the point I can justify getting some
    project games again. Never intended to make a big profit, just
    enjoy all aspects of this hobby.
    Steve

    #29 7 years ago

    I Wouldn't be upset, but was told MY value around the house has dropped significantly since my last pin purchase.

    #30 7 years ago

    Nope
    I end up overpaying a lot of the time because I must have it, then lose when I sell because I want the hell out of my house or I need the room for the must have, its a process. I never consider the loss, I do know pinheads who will pass on a game they really want over a few hundred dollars and its just something I cannot do and very happy about that.

    #31 7 years ago
    Quoted from Deez:

    I feel like i keep seeing EMs start to hit the 1k price range which to me is crazy. Especially for what you get with one of those titles. I could see if it were a pristine example but 4 years ago you had to give those titles away.

    Prices tend to go up on games when they have reproduction parts made for them and restoration work put into them, that's mostly what you're seeing I think as more EM repro stuff comes onto the market. Plus some of the more desirable wedgeheads popularity has pushed things up I guess.

    I have an Abra Ca Dabra with new plastics and a really beautiful reproduction Ron Webb backglass that I'm thinking of selling. You don't get your money back out of mods, but I do think you get money back out of restoration. (You don't get your time and labor! But quality repro parts count.)

    Obviously some people would rather have a cheaper original, and they don't care about faded or flaking reds in the backglass. But there's a market for a repainted machine with new parts.

    #32 7 years ago
    #33 7 years ago

    I just own keepers. They will never leave. So their market value is irrelevant to me. They have a big value for me.
    For non-keepers of course I would be disappointed. But it also depends also on the amount of drop. If you played a lot a game and resell it for a relatively small financial loss, its perfectly fine: its a hobby, and its not a loss!

    #34 7 years ago

    My bigger concern is the lack of raw materials for restoration. There's basically ZERO beater WPC games left and now even the early SS and EMs are dried up.

    #35 7 years ago
    Quoted from Darcy:

    If the value of pins fell drastically, that would make lower cost pinball for all of us. However if something caused pinball machines to drop in value, many other things in this world would also be lower in cost.
    Something like an Alien spacecraft landing in the UN compound, or on the White House lawn.

    This might actually bump the value of RFM and maybe Firepower.

    #36 7 years ago

    Besides two rare games I intend to keep (Nemo and Wooly) all my other games will rotate, soon or later.

    I am selling to buy new games, so in principle I should not care about prices - balance should be neutral.

    However, I noticed that high prices do not facilitate exchanges (people believe they are sitting on gold - actually better than gold as their games are supposed gain value every day).

    This is why a price drop would help. As a side benefit, I would not mind seeing local hoarders / flippers starting to lose money. They would probably look for a different "hobby".

    #37 7 years ago

    I've made thousands of dollars flipping machines. Those who say it isn't an investment are just plain wrong. Machines worth $1500 a couple years ago now go for 2500+. That would be considered a grand slam home run in the stock world. That being said, Ive checked out of the used market for now.

    #38 7 years ago
    Quoted from Elvisinmypants:

    They won't loose their value to me.

    HEH HEH.........loose/lose

    #39 7 years ago

    I didn't actually buy them to sell for profit . Most I bought pre 2002, when prices were nothing like where they are now. So, yes I would be upset if I lost money . Back then I paid $950 for WH20, and either $800 or $1000 at retail for my ES, and $1700 for a TZ. If I lost money on these because the price dropped below what I paid I would be pissed. Mainly because I wasn't smart enough to see the decline and sell while I could still make a little on it and thin down my collection .
    Now, I buy old beaters that are good titles , knowing if I put a hundred hours into a restore , and all new repro parts I can sell it for more than I have in it ,if a financial disaster strikes my life.
    Only NIB I bought was bought simply because I liked the game , and wanted to experience the opening the box excitement , which cost me a thousand bucks of instant depreciation for that joyous moment . Only did that after 23 years of buying beaters and fixing up , and used the profit from white water to afford it .
    I think it is a FUN way to spend my money . And if I come out with some profit I'll be happy , can't see me loosing money on my TZ at the very least .
    JP

    #40 7 years ago
    Quoted from Msch:

    I've made thousands of dollars flipping machines. Those who say it isn't an investment are just plain wrong. Machines worth $1500 a couple years ago now go for 2500+. That would be considered a grand slam home run in the stock world. That being said, Ive checked out of the used market for now.

    Well it isn't an "investment" in today's market and the 27% or so that would be upset at losing money on a pin are going to be disappointed in the future.

    #41 7 years ago

    Never thought of buying pinball machines as an investment. Seems like more of an expense. Rarely sell, often just store the ones I don't play. If I did look at it as an investment, I would stop buying.

    #42 7 years ago

    Also, I think that calculations between money spent for purchase and gained for selling are often wrong. People often omit costs for shipping or transportation, cost for maintenance, sometimes costs for storing, broken parts, tools and so on. If you spend 50 hours restoring a game, ok, you enjoy and its your hobby, but if you do it and the resell the machine after playing 100 or less games, well, thats closer to a job really. At least you can say you have a job you love...!!!

    So ok, maybe you paid 2000 for a machine and you re-sell it for 3000, but if you think at the amount of time and money spent, materials, time spent getting information like we are doing here now, etc... ok, you made some money, but its far from being a 1000 really. At the same time its true that the hobby of pinball, SO FAR, has seen a constant price increase, so all the extra costs are nicely covered by the prices increase. This is not happening in many other hobbies, where you loose value much quicker.

    #43 7 years ago

    Again.

    #44 7 years ago
    Quoted from Luppin:

    Also, I think that calculations between money spent for purchase and gained for selling are often wrong.

    Sometimes deliberately... much easier to justify that way

    #45 7 years ago

    I don't buy pins to "flip" them. I am attached to all of them. Not to say I won't sell one day, just not anytime soon.

    #46 7 years ago
    Quoted from Msch:

    I've made thousands of dollars flipping machines. Those who say it isn't an investment are just plain wrong. Machines worth $1500 a couple years ago now go for 2500+. That would be considered a grand slam home run in the stock world. That being said, Ive checked out of the used market for now.

    I never understood the whole point of flipping machines. There is so many easier ways to make money than hauling huge wooden boxes around for a few hundred here and there. Only games I've flipped is when I do a bulk deal because they won't let me just have the one machine.

    #47 7 years ago
    Quoted from pinkid:

    I don't buy pins to "flip" them. I am attached to all of them. Not to say I won't sell one day, just not anytime soon.

    Guess this is me....it's my hobby, and I buy what I want to own. I see myself potentially selling them all one day, if I ever tire of this. Whatever someone pays me for them then, is what it is....I've already gotten my " money's worth " out of all of them, so I would view as pure profit at that point....

    #48 7 years ago

    I'd say no, in that I enjoy them myself. If I go to sell, I'd put the cost of acquisition minus the enjoyment I got from them and it likely be even or better in current market. Cannot see them losing value to the point of being boat anchors anyway. Just a bit up or down based on supply/demand etc

    #49 7 years ago

    Would I be upset? Not in the slightest. I bought my games at a price I was willing to pay because I wanted the game to play. This was never about collection value to me.

    For the longest time, being broke af in a hobby that requires $$$, I'd buy games in horrible condition anyway to get them on the cheap(er). If I could sell them for as much as I bought them for, cool. If not, eh. I had fun playing it anyway--time to make room for something bigger and better.

    #50 7 years ago

    Yes, I think in the very first place you have to pay for your pins what you can afford without worries and without the need to get the money back (breakeven or profit). Then only buy games you truly love. If the machines you own later greatly depreciate, you are still winning. You had a great time with them and that's what it counts.

    As I mentioned, the situation is different with machines you do not particularly like: in that case a sudden drop in price would definitely be disappointing. Better sell them quick. But even better: dont own them at all.

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