(Topic ID: 223338)

Would I like newer stern games?

By ViperVS

5 years ago


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  • Latest reply 5 years ago by J85M
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    #1 5 years ago

    Since I got into the hobby (a year and a half ago), I have only owned/played/serviced Bally and Williams games. Stayed away from newer sterns probably because of the higher price point...
    2 months ago, I had a chance to buy a reasonably priced stern (HRC) and I went for it. And boy does it feel/look different (not in a good way).

    I was lately toying with an idea to sell 2-3 of my old BW games to get a newer stern. Since they look kind of tempting in the videos. Factory LEDs, nice audio, deep rule sets etc.

    So here's the question: Is there that much difference in SAM, Spike and Spike2 compared to whitestar?

    #2 5 years ago

    I've owned and enjoyed playing all four Stern variations. No huge (game breaker) differences to me among them other than the LCD display on the newest games. As long as the theme and gameplay appeals to you, go for it!

    #3 5 years ago

    What about HRC didn't you like compared to your other games?

    #4 5 years ago

    When Stern resurfaced in 2000, it did so from the bones of Sega, which had done so from the bones of Data East. IMHO (some here disagree; most, I'd say, agree), the flippers had a snappy, loose "feel" to them, compared to the solid B/W pins and the robust Capcom pins. DE pins were mostly licensed (after the company's beginning, during which licenses were too expensive). Stern, too, followed this path. Suckfest Extreme was followed by HRC. Both pins had a shitty "feel" to them, though HRC has a great Keith Johnson ruleset. Little by little, Stern began to employ most of the B/W designers and programmers, their designs improved, their rulesets became deeper and more imaginative (so long as uber-formulaic Lonnie Ropp wasn't at the helm) and many of their pins have a "feel" equal to, or at least approaching, the old B/W. So, with a few exceptions, the newer, the better.

    #5 5 years ago

    I think the newer Sterns are much better overall but it's all subjective. They do play a bit different than 20-30 year old B/W games but Stern does have a lot of the same people that designed/coded B/W games. Some of the new games are too deep and I prefer the more simple B/W games. That said, Stern has some real gems and worth seeking them out to give a try.

    #6 5 years ago
    Quoted from zacaj:

    What about HRC didn't you like compared to your other games?

    While playing, it feels like something will break any minute now. It's the overall look and feel:

    Flippers feel very flimsy/loose. Gameplay feels very toyish.
    Targets are plastic, Apron is plastic, service rails are missing. Playfield print quality looks very cheap. "Translite" looks like it was printed on a copy paper (washed out colors and poor contrast). Instead of even backlight, there is one fluorescent lamp in there. And the result is very uneven lighting which reflects on the playfield glass terribly.
    Cabinet side art print quality looks super cheap compared to what williams had on -93. You would think that 8 years later printing techniques have developed a bit?

    It's like it was designed and built with half the budget that B/W had. It amazes me that this was designed as commercial vending equipment.

    Were these a lot cheaper back in the day compared to the past B/W's?

    #7 5 years ago

    Warning: Bold opinion following:

    My issue with new stern games is that they’re technically superior to B/W games. They have fantastic rules, strategy, their flippers feel fantastic, they’ve got a really “clean” feel to them, and as of late, have some really excellent playfield layouts (I’m lookin’ at you, Iron Maiden).

    And that’s why these new games annoy the hell out of me.

    They lack the “magic” that (most) B/W games have. They might be technical masterpieces, but I never feel connected to them as I play. I always feel like I’m standing in front of a wooden box completing objectives because I paid 50¢ to.

    As I play B/W games, it’s almost as if I’m reading a book. I play white water, and I feel more enveloped into the story: get down the dangerous river with a cut rate tour guide. When I play MM, I’m smashing castles and cracking up from the stupid jokes. The shallow rules make the game more tangible, and the ambiguity in the themes leaves my brain to fill in the gap. It doesn’t feel like a wooden box with lights and flippers.

    Now, that’s all just my punk ass opinion as none of the recent themes that stern has produced have really appealed to me. I’m sure others with connections to the recent themes feel much differently.

    #8 5 years ago
    Quoted from ViperVS:

    While playing, it feels like something will brake any minute now.
    Flippers feel very flimsy/loose. Gameplay feels very toyish.
    Targets are plastic, Apron is plastic, service rails are missing. Playfield print quality looks very cheap. "Translite" looks like it was printed on a copy paper (washed out colors and poor contrast). Instead of even backlight, there is one fluorescent lamp in there. And the result is very uneven lighting which reflects on the playfield glass terribly.
    Cabinet side art print quality looks super cheap compared to what williams had on -93. You would think that 8 years later printing techniques have developed a bit.
    It's like it was design and built with half the budget that B/W had. It amazes me that this was designed as commercial vending equipment.
    Were these a lot cheaper back in the day compared to the past B/W's?

    Yes those old stern games are pretty shitty. They've come a long way.

    It's not like it's hard to find Stern games as they are all that's been mass produced consistently for the past 20 years. Go find some in bars and see for yourself. And the good news is if you don't like them, you can just keep collecting 90s games, they are plentiful and affordable.

    #9 5 years ago
    Quoted from ViperVS:

    While playing, it feels like something will break any minute now. It's the overall look and feel:
    Flippers feel very flimsy/loose. Gameplay feels very toyish.
    Targets are plastic, Apron is plastic, service rails are missing. Playfield print quality looks very cheap. "Translite" looks like it was printed on a copy paper (washed out colors and poor contrast). Instead of even backlight, there is one fluorescent lamp in there. And the result is very uneven lighting which reflects on the playfield glass terribly.
    Cabinet side art print quality looks super cheap compared to what williams had on -93. You would think that 8 years later printing techniques have developed a bit?
    It's like it was designed and built with half the budget that B/W had. It amazes me that this was designed as commercial vending equipment.
    Were these a lot cheaper back in the day compared to the past B/W's?

    I'd say they've improved somewhat in that respect. Maybe not to B/W levels, but definitely better than HRC. Flippers are more solid, new games have service rails, printing on playfield, cabinet, plastics has improved. LED instead of fluorescent. I'd be impressed if HRC even had half the budget B/W had.

    #10 5 years ago
    Quoted from ViperVS:

    While playing, it feels like something will break any minute now. It's the overall look and feel:
    Flippers feel very flimsy/loose. Gameplay feels very toyish.
    Targets are plastic, Apron is plastic, service rails are missing. Playfield print quality looks very cheap. "Translite" looks like it was printed on a copy paper (washed out colors and poor contrast). Instead of even backlight, there is one fluorescent lamp in there. And the result is very uneven lighting which reflects on the playfield glass terribly.
    Cabinet side art print quality looks super cheap compared to what williams had on -93. You would think that 8 years later printing techniques have developed a bit?
    It's like it was designed and built with half the budget that B/W had. It amazes me that this was designed as commercial vending equipment.
    Were these a lot cheaper back in the day compared to the past B/W's?

    Lots of people say this but all the sterns I have had have been bullet proof and the ops that I have talked to say they are bullet proof too (at least sam was). It may feel different but the new games hold up much better. I was raised on data east so when I first played a Bally/Williams game I thought they felt weird and still do. A lot of it is what you are used to. I will say if you can get over the initial feel the games are much deeper and will have longer lastabillity in a home environment.

    If you want something new that feels more like Williams, have you thought about a JJP?

    #11 5 years ago
    Quoted from jorge5240:

    If you want something new that feels more like Williams, have you thought about a JJP?

    Those are very rare here in Finland. And way too expensive for me.
    I was thinking to spend maybe 4-5k (star trek/metallica?) or save some more for some spike 2.

    #12 5 years ago
    Quoted from ViperVS:

    Those are very rare here in Finland. And way too expensive for me.
    I was thinking to spend maybe 4-5k (star trek/metallica?) or save some more for some spike 2.

    I think ST, Met, TWD are all amazing games. Obviously try and play before you buy but man those are some solid games that I believe will stand the test of time.
    Also LOTR already has stood the test of time.

    I am still not sold on spike games and I own a few with an Iron Maiden arriving tomorrow.

    The above are some of your best bets.

    #13 5 years ago
    Quoted from ViperVS:

    Those are very rare here in Finland. And way too expensive for me.
    I was thinking to spend maybe 4-5k (star trek/metallica?) or save some more for some spike 2.

    Just remember, 3 games are better than 1. I wouldn't get rid of my collection just to get a new Stern. You will still get tired of it and I don't care what anyone says, they DO NOT have the replay value of older SS games like Eight Ball Deluxe or Flash Gordon. If I play LOTR or GOT, I'm probably pressing start once or twice but if I'm playing Flash Gordon I'm pressing start all night. Same goes for your 90's pins. It's the simple goals that are difficult to accomplish thing that makes pinball addictive in the first place. I'm not bashing Stern either, I just feel like rulesets are going a little crazy and I really like when they do games like Tron or Iron Man.

    #14 5 years ago

    SM and TRON are super legit too. Just different kinds of games. Tron might be my favorite game of all time but the code is orientates towards a quick game, not Journey.

    #15 5 years ago

    If you enjoy a deeper code or more things to do, you’ll enjoy a newer stern

    #16 5 years ago

    I have to echo the comments about newer Sterns (definitely not HRC) as being technically superior, but they also lack that B/W "magic". It's insane that the older games are so much more engaging; (for me)

    Some games also have the build quality issue - I've only actually owned 1 Stern, which was a 2009-built LOTR. It was a great game, kinda clunky, but ultimately did not live up to what I was hoping it would be. I also owned a Hobbit, which I absolutely loved, and this did not work in LOTR's favor. Stern's just seem "cheap" to me, despite being fairly expensive. I do not feel that they are always given enough time to mature before the company moves on to the next flavor of the month. IMDN seems to be a big turnaround from that. I also enjoy Aerosmith, although I don't think it would last very long in a small collection. Iron Man is good but I would never buy one. Guardians, no way. Even Star Wars. I want to like it but it's just not that fun. That sums up my opinion I guess - they look amazing. But they are not that fun for me.

    #17 5 years ago

    You might. But why ask for the jaded opinion of other Pinside snobs?

    I would strongly suggest you play a specific title you are considering on location or at a friends house MANY times and then decide if you want to buy. It will be a way better assessment than asking for Pinside's opinions on "Stern brand pinball games".

    I've owned some newer Sterns. Some NIB, some not. They are fine games. I would have probably kept them all if I had unlimited space. I prefer Stern machines with shorter ball times. You may not. I would never buy a HRC.

    Of the Stern's that I have not owned, I would still consider:
    Elvis
    Batman 66

    Owned or own:
    MET x2
    TSPP
    Tron Pro
    WPT
    Sharkey's

    #18 5 years ago

    I think there is a point where there can be too much stuff, be it art, code, crap on the playfield, etc. Star Wars, to me, was the game that showed us what too much code looks like. Some people love the game, but I think it's a convoluted mess. Too many things going on at once. How can you tell a story with multiple stories going with hurry ups, multipliers, etc. As Max said above, it doesn't draw you into the game, it's a collage of Star Wars not a fun, crisp gaming experience people were hoping for. Dwight tried too hard to do something special with the code, instead of slowing down and making a comprehensive and most of all FUN ruleset. Why do people like AFM and MM so much? Simple rules that make sense and are fun to progress through. They didn't have the "hit the castle 3 times, hit the right ramp, double your scores on the left orbit crap." How are new pinball players gonna get interested in games like this.

    #19 5 years ago
    Quoted from Frippertron:

    Why do people like AFM and MM so much?

    Many don't.

    Quoted from Frippertron:

    How are new pinball players gonna get interested in games like this.

    Most seem to do just fine.

    #20 5 years ago

    20+ years later and Stern still can't make games that are as compelling, fun and immersive than Bally/Williams did in the 90's. I have no problem with Stern, but there is literally nothing new with gameplay to be seen with them. Deeper rulesets and gameplay that actually takes away from the fun of the game imo. Iron Maiden for example is a fun game, and I have played it considerably, but all I see is the TZ flipper setup, Congo through the pops shot and Metallica-ish shaped ramps. Nothing innovative or new there at all as is with all of their designs.

    #21 5 years ago
    Quoted from ViperVS:Stayed away from newer sterns probably because of the higher price point...

    New Sterns are a chunk of change and if you buy one and decide after a few months you don't care for it anymore, count on having paid quite a bit for the time it was spent at your place. Otherwise it's yours for the long haul.

    #22 5 years ago
    Quoted from pinlawyer:

    When Stern resurfaced in 2000, it did so from the bones of Sega, which had done so from the bones of Data East. IMHO (some here disagree; most, I'd say, agree), the flippers had a snappy, loose "feel" to them, compared to the solid B/W pins and the robust Capcom pins. DE pins were mostly licensed (after the company's beginning, during which licenses were too expensive). Stern, too, followed this path. Suckfest Extreme was followed by HRC. Both pins had a shitty "feel" to them, though HRC has a great Keith Johnson ruleset. Little by little, Stern began to employ most of the B/W designers and programmers, their designs improved, their rulesets became deeper and more imaginative (so long as uber-formulaic Lonnie Ropp wasn't at the helm) and many of their pins have a "feel" equal to, or at least approaching, the old B/W. So, with a few exceptions, the newer, the better.

    Yes, totally agree. This was my experience with old 2000's Stern games compared to the new releases. The new games are great to play and fun.

    #23 5 years ago

    Like any company they all have great games and dogs (sans Gottlieb premiere of course. Oh and I guess DE didn't have any truly great games. Ha..obviously Sega doesn't either). Ok sorry, B/W & Stern both have great games and dogs.
    Stern started out shaky (bag of shit) but have put out some all timers.

    I mean if you're asking whether newer sterns are better than you Black Rose then yes by miles. Better than your BSD yes.
    Party Zone is sort of a diff'rent era to me.

    #24 5 years ago
    Quoted from snyper2099:

    You might. But why ask for the jaded opinion of other Pinside snobs?
    I would strongly suggest you play a specific title you are considering on location or at a friends house MANY times and then decide if you want to buy. It will be a way better assessment than asking for Pinside's opinions on "Stern brand pinball games".

    Well, the reason I'm asking is because I'm the only weirdo in my social circle that has this hobby of collecting expensive wooden boxes
    So getting familiar with one at some friends house is not an option. And it usually takes more than 2 quick plays at seller's home to make up your mind about some game.

    Basically what I was asking was, have those newer systems got better at material quality and gameplay/feel compared to the whitestar. Or are they just another HRC with cleaner playfields and brighter leds ?

    What goes to complexity of rulesets is that I think my Party Zone is quite boring. You just need to shoot to the right 3 times for multiball and then as many times to the left ramp as you can. That's basically all there is to it. But then again it only costs half of my Black Rose which costs half of Metallica.
    What I'm perfectly happy with is my BSD. Many of you probably know the rush of trying to stack those 3 multiballs. Flippers and overall build quality is spot on. It's built like a tank. That's the perfection right there.

    I guess It's just the newer "bling" in those sterns that I'm attracted to. They look really good in videos. Playfields are clean and well lit. Probably don't need to service them as much either. But then again I would have to let go 3 of my current ones and as someone already mentioned, newer one might get old just as fast despite of having deeper rule set.

    Decisions decisions and 1st world problems I guess

    #25 5 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Like any company they all have great games and dogs (sans Gottlieb premiere of course. Oh and I guess DE didn't have any truly great games. Ha..obviously Sega doesn't either). Ok sorry, B/W & Stern both have great games and dogs.
    Stern started out shaky (bag of shit) but have put out some all timers.
    I mean if you're asking whether newer sterns are better than you Black Rose then yes by miles. Better than your BSD yes.
    Party Zone is sort of a diff'rent era to me.

    It all depends on what you like. When I started in this hobby, I thought newer was better but slowly I realized my favorite games were from the early SS period. At first I wouldn't have looked at those games twice but after actually playing them, I just enjoyed the tough but simplistic gameplay better. It's tough to describe why but I think I just like brutal games.

    #26 5 years ago
    Quoted from zacaj:

    Many don't.

    Most seem to do just fine.

    That's the beauty of this hobby, many different opinions and ways of collecting.

    #27 5 years ago
    Quoted from ViperVS:

    Basically what I was asking is, have those newer systems got better at material quality and gameplay/feel compared to the whitestar. Or are they just HRC with cleaner playfields and brighter leds ?

    Same.

    Quoted from ViperVS:

    I guess It's just the newer "bling" in those sterns that I'm attracted to. They look really good in videos. Playfields are clean and well lit. Probably don't need to service them as much etc. But then again I would have to let go 3 of my currect ones and as someone already mentioned, newer one might get old just as fast dispite of having deeper rule set.

    PZ is a dud of a game.

    Given everything that you have said thus far, you should check out TWD as a possibility. It's a good game and the only reason I don't have the desire to own it is because there are quite a few examples local to me that I can play.

    #28 5 years ago
    Quoted from ViperVS:

    Those are very rare here in Finland. And way too expensive for me.
    I was thinking to spend maybe 4-5k (star trek/metallica?) or save some more for some spike 2.

    You could find an original SM for that price, it's a fantastic machine.

    #29 5 years ago
    Quoted from ViperVS:

    Basically what I was asking is, have those newer systems got better at material quality and gameplay/feel compared to the whitestar. Or are they just HRC with cleaner playfields and brighter leds ?

    Yes, no, & Maybe

    Not a linear answer. The "quality of feel," a term I just made up, goes down as you get newer.
    My whitestar RBION is a total tank. My SW feels a little more flimsy, but it doens't have anything to do with the gameplay. I mean Stern has been going through a shitfest the last couple years with cabinets falling apart (ALLEGEDLY) & ghosting inserts (ALLEGEDLLY) so quality has kind of gone down....of course they don't print the PFs using a dot matrix printer anymore; so they've got that going for them.
    As a whole the newer Sterns are much improved over the early times of HRC. Playboy, striker exteme, Austin powers...not a ton of love for those games.

    Becasue they sucked.

    #30 5 years ago

    B/W games, speaking generally, have more mechanisms, ball interaction, and unique ball paths - custom toys that swallow the ball and redirect them, subways, multiple diverters. They also have more original themes, and with that comes the "immersive world" you talk about, since they can craft a whole goofy cast of characters around the pin.

    Modern Sterns do have deeper rules, but in general less mechanisms, more "what you see is what you get" design and fewer unique toys and ball paths.

    #31 5 years ago
    Quoted from westofrome:

    B/W games, speaking generally, have more mechanisms, ball interaction, and unique ball paths - custom toys that swallow the ball and redirect them, subways, multiple diverters. They also have more original themes, and with that comes the "immersive world" you talk about, since they can craft a whole goofy cast of characters around the pin.
    Modern Sterns do have deeper rules, but in general less mechanisms, more "what you see is what you get" design and fewer unique toys and ball paths.

    This reminds me - was it ever determined whether or not Stern NEVER uses subways in recent games?

    #32 5 years ago
    Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

    This reminds me - was it ever determined whether or not Stern NEVER uses subways in recent games?

    Depends if you count the coffin lock form met (not really) or the subway form BG(no) as subways. Subways usually take the ball from one area to another, which Stern don;t do.

    #33 5 years ago
    Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

    This reminds me - was it ever determined whether or not Stern NEVER uses subways in recent games?

    Since Rollercoaster Tycoon, three Stern models have used subways AFAIK:
    NASCAR
    Metallica Premium/LE
    Ghostbusters Premium/LE

    So approximately 1-2% of games produced by Stern since then have used subways.

    #35 5 years ago
    Quoted from westofrome:

    Since Rollercoaster Tycoon, three Stern models have used subways AFAIK:
    NASCAR
    Metallica Premium/LE
    Ghostbusters Premium/LE
    So approximately 1-2% of games produced by Stern since then have used subways.

    If you ever feel like there isn't much variation in the feel of all the Stern games, this is a major reason why.

    #36 5 years ago

    Nascar wasn't really a subway, it was a modified trough due to the race track and metal shooter lane. It had no playing feature.

    #37 5 years ago

    Another super-mini-subway could be the scoop on RBION, where you shoot it from the right side and it comes out the bottom - but even that sort of two-way trough has more or less disappeared from Sterns.

    #38 5 years ago
    Quoted from westofrome:

    Another super-mini-subway could be the scoop on RBION, where you shoot it from the right side and it comes out the bottom - but even that sort of two-way trough has more or less disappeared from Sterns.

    It's just 1 big scoop. "The right" is .5" away form where it comes out.

    #39 5 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    It's just 1 big scoop. "The right" is .5" away form where it comes out.

    Yeah, I'm saying EVEN THAT kind of ball path variation has been abandoned. These days the skill shot into the scoop from the right would be a spot target.

    #40 5 years ago

    I've been hearing this same complaint for a lot of years. Stern games feel cheap. It feels like it will fall apart. Well Stern games feel different than Williams games. They always have. But it's funny, they are also a freaking blast to play. You are not going to hit the Start Button on LOTR over and over again, because it is a long playing journey. But with an Iron Man, the start button is used more than the flippers some afternoons. Brutal, easy to understand, and FUN.

    If you are prejudiced against Stern games because of how they feel, you just haven't played them enough. After a while, you even start being able to tell the feel between different generations of Stern games. They have used a few different types of flippers, and they have distinct feels within the family.

    The rules are fantastic. Not always out of the gate, but a good game can get a lot better (MET is a great example of that).

    I love some of the Williams games from the 90s that also had their distinct feel. I just wouldn't write off Stern games because of it. Play them, and after you adjust, if you like them, grab them.

    #41 5 years ago

    1000's of posts about this on pinside.
    It's all a personal preference. Yes they feel and play different. But every pinball machine ever made feels different and plays different.

    If you like it. Play it.
    If you love it, and have the means. buy it.

    Innovation is what is missing in pinball today.
    Instead of the same games with the same/similar layouts and same designers.
    New ideas lead to new things being discovered

    That's the problem with modern games.
    We've seen it all before in one way or another.

    #42 5 years ago

    Newer sterns rock!

    But 3 pins is better then 1 imo

    #43 5 years ago

    Sterns may not have subways, but at least at one time they certainly had a Jared.

    download (resized).jpgdownload (resized).jpg
    #44 5 years ago

    Sterns may not have subways, but at least at one time they certainly had a Jared.[quoted image]</blockqu
    He had the 12 year olds, now he's getting 12 inches in prison.

    #45 5 years ago

    But at least now he's getting that sauce he always loved.

    #46 5 years ago

    Just like Stern he sometimes was a widebody in the past. But never anymore

    #47 5 years ago

    If I had to visualize my experience:

    There's a product (Ipad/WPC). 10 years later a competitor proudly introduces it's own product (Windows XP tablet/Whitestar).

    ipad (resized).jpgipad (resized).jpgwinxp_tablet (resized).jpgwinxp_tablet (resized).jpg

    #48 5 years ago

    Wish stern would do a widebody pin someday again, I know others indicated assembly line can’t do it or something to that matter but would like to see what they could come up with in a game today.

    #49 5 years ago

    IMO, Stern games started feeling more like B/W games in the SAM era. The audio was finally on par with WPC’95, they got Pat Lawlor & Steve Ritchie really rockin’ it, and code/rules were meshing really well with playfield design. IMO Family Guy is the most “B/W feeling” Stern I’ve ever had, with Spider-Man (‘07) & Metallica LE being really close. There really hasn’t been a Spike game I’ve liked...in fact I think most have been horrible, but Maiden might grow on me if I play it more. They have a nice flipper feel, though. Nice and strong. However, their approach to LCD has caused a huge disconnect for me...too much video game style logic, inconsistent presentation & cheap animation/choppy transitions that look like 90’s CD-ROM games, not something modern. SAM games with ColorDMD are far more appealing to me so far. Retro display done right > modern display done wonky. I also prefer the wide aspect ratio of DMD...makes more sense for pinball (long scores in the millions/billions). Stern’s small LCD with its more square-ish ratio just looks odd to me.

    #50 5 years ago

    I like the whitestar Stern games from 2003 forward. I have a Metallica, which I like, but I haven't connected with a Stern since. Stern games anymore are cookie cutter and don't capture the magic of the heyday of pinball.

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