This debate swerved into nasty territory and I am 100% at fault. I am honestly fine with these ladies having their own league and I do see it as a good thing for pinball. I think a case could also be made that "Youth Leagues" and other groupings could be a great thing to promote our sport. The only point I was making is that segregation isn't always a good thing as I have always seen pinball as something that can bring folks together. And in fairness, your apples or oranges does reveal that there is, in fact, a double standard at work here involving gender groupings for leagues.

Next weekend we will have a tournament at our place and I'm expecting folks in their 60s along with some preteens. They will all play against each other, no separate divisions. But then a couple of weeks earlier we had junior high kids only tournament and that was fun as well. If someone else approaches me and says they want to do another tournament at my place and only invite girl scouts, that is also fine as long as they adhere to our one rule: bring enough food to share with us and we'll get the games ready.

Peace.

I don't see it as a tangent when it was brought up by someone else earlier in the thread. Whether women tell you they see the art as misogynistic or even whether all do doesn't mean that much of pinball art objectifies women in ways that doesn't happen to men. Men are often displayed as figures of power while women are displayed often as weak. I see that as misogynistic and I know plenty of women that do as well. The art in pinball marginalizes women by failing to present them in a similar light to the way men are portrayed. This point was made by one of the women in the movie and belittled by one of the posters, I was responding to that.

I know we agree on lots of things and disagree on others but I try to keep from suggesting that someone's ideas are silly when they are on-topic. The Cyclopes playfield I just got is a perfect example of objectifying art. Don't get me wrong, I won't be getting rid of Flash Gordon or Paragon anytime soon, I love them as games, but I can understand and appreciate the sexist critique of them and it's greater potential impact on women. I think if I had daughters there are certainly titles I would never bring home just because of the message it would be sending.

They explain why in the video. It's what they want.

Guys, the thread was started (as I see it) to promote a female league of pinball. The idea of the all female league, *IMO*, is to create a place where women can play pinball together and not be outnumbered or intimidated by a large number of men, share the passion for the hobby and companionship on a comforting level. Many will possibly be in coed leagues in the future (if they are not already). For crying out loud, let the females have THEIR space. All this post was in the first place was to promote what someone has already discovered - that there's been a female league in place (imagine that!) and it raises all this fuss and argument.

They have it as a mixed sport - available in other leagues. Why can't the women also have a space of their own? It's the same with pro golf. Women are not banned from joining the PGA, but they also have the LPGA specifically for them.

We have a local league that has a few women in it and are very welcome. For some people like my wife as a casual player it is hard being crushed by the other folks.

There was a pinball tournament that was held at a event that brought it a lot more people that are not normally into pinball. There was a group talking about starting a local womens league. In talking to them it was interesting to understand their point of view. Its not always about leagues being unwelcoming to women. Sometimes league chat can turn risque and be off putting (non different then pinside posts ). Point is take some time to speak to the folks involved and it may change your perspective.

Did anyone watch the video?

5 minutes into it, "there are some new machines coming out that are just obviously sexest. It's really upsetting to me, its perpetuating this culture of objectifying women"

If you agree with their opinions, or not you should at least listen to them, and try to understand what they are saying, and seeing.
They explain what they are seeing, and why they want their own league.

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"Seek first to understand, then to be understood.", S.C.

Ok again from a woman's perspective, yes there are more pinball machines that portray women than men. that is how it has always been and how it will continue, lets face it men's bodies being portrayed on a pin usually don't go over as well...take Laser Cue for instance...I don't have a problem with pin art or how it portrays women I would rather have an AC/DC Luci than a regular premium. I like the art and color choices better on that model and I see nothing wrong with Luci or Elvira being pictured on the pin if that is what the game is named after, but then I have never really gotten the sexist card. I have played in a league of 24 where I was the only woman and no one was overly cautious around me or treated me any different than any of the others. We all got along fine. I am now running a league of 30 people and there are 5 of us (women) in the league, we treat everyone the same. I really don't think that a womens only league in our area is necessary, as we have another league getting ready to start and it will have 20 people with several women in it as well.
I have never felt out of place or felt that I was treated differently because I'm a woman. I think if they want to have a women's only league that is cool if they have the women to play in it so they can get comfortable playing in a league, I feel that the feminism boat has sailed and needs to stay out to sea. I do get where some might think it's funny the way men react when they find out that you are a woman and like pinball or can fix or repair or even play pinball (case and point at a show this past weekend, we were setting up games and I stepped over to check out someones game, he was telling a guy that he had an issue with a sound playing at the wrong time. I spoke up and said that it was either a switch to close therefore reacting when the vibration of the pin made it move or else he could have a switch matrix issue but that he should check the inlane switches to make sure they were gapped good...he turned to look at me like I had 2 heads (like you are a girl you have no clue what you are talking about). I stepped back over to my game and went on with what I was doing...Don't know if he ever figured it out, but he had the hood up on it many times over the course of the show). When I first started playing in tournaments and getting involved I was definitely in the minority I think that this is not the case now as time has passed more women are getting involved and enjoying pinball! Which I see as a win win for the hobby as a whole!

Phoebe

Great video, watched it with my daughter.

Am I the only one who couldn't stop thinking about Portlandia during this movie? Especially when the guy with the big ear gage showed up.

9DJp1_(resized).jpg

In all seriousness, it sounds like CA guys just don't know how to treat women.

I used to play Chess a few decades ago(!) and this games shares some characteristics with Pinball:
- dominated by male players, at least for adults (but may be not 90%-10%)
- no physical disadvantage for women. Even if a 5h-long chess game is physically exhausting. Really.

Chess took the opposite route than pinball: separate rankings, separate world championships. To a point that one of the best female players (One of the Polgar sisters) wanted to participate in the Men's world championships! It started a controversy.

Unsure how Chess stands now.
I now prefer pinball as I can always blame my defeats on "bad luck".
With Chess you can only blame yourself.

Eh, we got rid of that in Canada (and most of the world) years ago. (When I was still in Scouts.) But the girl scouts are still around, if less popular, for various reasons.

And in terms of 'coed' sports, Ultimate has rules requiring at least 3/7th of players on the field to be of either gender in mixed leagues. This leads to huge participation drives to try to find enough girls/boys when you're putting together teams, and I think a better environment in general.

Wow. This is just.....Wow.

I dunno, I kind of agree, I'm deeply disturbed by the lack of deep sea fishermen playing pinball. Do they not know about Bally's Fathom?

You know, everything sounds awful when you read what you wrote the day before. I feel bad for where I took the conversation yesterday, except for the fact that I really would like to see more little people leagues forming around town...

I would totally open my gameroom for a little people's league.

Be careful what you wish for. We tried this and things were going fine until they found out we didn't have any alcohol in the house.

Wow, I had to stop watching the video. If I had to hear one more time about how pinball is sexist and condescending toward women and how women are badly treated and bla bla bla. I love women, I love to be around them and if I ever treat one other than like a lady then some one needs to call me out but I would just as soon women with that particular point of view do their own thing and I think they would be happier that way. And I wont even mention the dreadlocks for armpit hair.

As far as a woman's pinball league or anything else, who cares. Women sometimes prefer to do things with other women. They talk girl talk, they enjoy each others company, they share feelings, whatever and they can't really do this with a mixed group. They probably enjoy doing things where guys aren't belching, farting, scratching themselves and doing what a lot of guys do even in mixed company. More power to them. But they don't get to bitch if someone starts a mens whatever where you don't have to listen to women share their feelings and they can belch, fart and talk about their conquests without being told how gross they are.

After watching the video, I found I've had similar feelings as these women at tournaments. I'm a person who doesn't have any friends who love pinball as much as me and when I go to tournaments I feel alone and anxious about being in a strange place with people I don't know. I didn't take part in the tourney at LAX because I was unsure where to sign up or what to do so I just hung out in the free play area.

It seems these ladies are using the ladies' league as a way to get to know games and people in a smaller group, so that when they head to larger tourneys it won't feel so awkward. That's a good thing.