Who are these people who are making women feel unwelcome in open tournaments and leagues???? I met dozens of women at Pinburgh last year including Elizabeth Cromwell, Angela Drobka, and Jennifer Peavler. Elizabeth and I had our asses handed to us by two much better players and we had a blast hanging out with each other (well at least I did)!!!

Whoever they are I wish they would stop. And if I ever hear any disparaging comments you can bet I will call that person out on the spot.

Now as far as saying that it's sexy if a female knows how to fix a coin mech (from the movie), I see no problem with that. It's sexy because it's unusual. People are attracted to new and exciting things. Just like women who find it sexy when a man can arrange flowers or have a great eye for fashion.

Absolutely nothing wrong with a female league. The more pinball the better.

I unfortunately turned off after the feminist bullshit. OOOOOHHHHH big boobs offends her. Thats a shame that she carries this point of view as I know a lot more females that don't.
Spoilt what could have been a ripper mini doco. Pinball for everyone but don't change what it is. FUN!

Look at the very first responses in this thread and ask yourself again why there might be a problem.

Great observation.

Ted

Yea, I know. I see it all the time behind the anonymity of the internet. Sad people. Just never seen it in person.

image_(resized).jpeg

Nate interviewed her in episode 208 of Coast2Coast Pinball.
http://www.coast2coastpinball.com/

There are about five women out of thirty players in our league.

I remember Nate on C2C was talking about WNBJM in a NY barcade. He was saying that it was a very popular game and remembered a lady saying she wanted to go play that T and A game again. I thought that was cool.

Well personally i dont really see the point in making this some sort of special event, men and women are kinda equal enough when it comes to pinball, so why not have it as a mixed sport?

As Helen Reddy sang in 1972:"I am woman hear me roar!" ; )

The main reason for leagues like this is to promote pinball amungst women. Although men and women are mostly equal, especially in terms of pinball, many pinball events see attendance of something around 90% male and 10% female, which can make it a bit intimidating for a women to come when she feels like she's in such a minority. Having women's events allows for events that are much more approachable to women, and gives them a good opportunity to enter this great hobby.

I agree. Once attendance of women is up there would be no reason to have them. It's just to provide an entry point similar to a children's league or tournaments with varying skill divisions.

I knew this douche would get brought up.
Wondering if I'll see him at MGC soon.

There was the right answer to this issue. If pinball were something where men and women legitimately couldn't compete with each other due to the physical differences between them I would be all for this. The problem is they have taken one of the few competition activities where everyone is on an equal footing and segregated it. As much as I enjoyed watching this tatto-covered ladies drone on about being objectified in other tournaments the question that I ask is if they showed up to this arcade on an off-league night from their women's only tournament and there was a sign on the door that said "closed tonight for men's only tournament" would they all be OK with that?

I don't run any public tournaments but we do several private ones during the year. I go out of my way to invite all ages/sexes/shapes/sizes and I don't segregate any from the others in the divisions. There is no reason a 12 year old girl can't beat a 30 year old man at pinball, and in my experience that happens a lot. But then I don't hold tournaments typically for the advanced pinball players, I have found it more fun to only have novice players over. In the more organized leagues I have played in the women seem to do pretty well, certainly, they don't seem to have any problems routinely besting my pitiful scores.

To anyone opening this thread for the first time: these responses have now been moderated - 3 posts deleted.

This is so cool. I hope to meet Echa at PaGG this year.

I need to take my daughter to a BaC league night, she'd have a blast. She's played all 3 seasons in the CCPL-Lodi league and is getting better every season.

Something tells me if I were to host a tournament where you hung a men only sign someone would get offended. It is a double standard that does not need to be supported for either side.

Efforts would probably be better focused on trying to reduce some of the pain points female players have if there is a legitimate solution. 90 percent male attendance is off putting? Sorry? Pinball is in many ways a reflection of the arcade scene of decades past. It was 90 percent men back then. Cultivating new pinheads is a slow process and will take time to change. You want to speed it up, introduce new women to it.

Overt sexism though? That should not fly.

Anytime someone wants to create a subgroup based on gender/race/etc its just a means of putting up barriers. Creates more problems than it solves.

I thought it was dumb, women playing pinball are always welcome to join and anyone making them not feel welcome is rare and not embraced by all. I have never once heard men complain about women playing pinball ever. A all radical feminist group not allowing men to join is just as wrong as a all men's group not allowing women to play. I also think the name of group is classless "The ball busting bitches"

You're not looking at it from the viewpoint of the subgroup.

In this particular case if women join more often in a women only league the benefit to pinball as a whole is greater than the harm to men in pinball.

I know a lot of men in here are thinking "I'd welcome women into our leagues" and that is great, I'm glad there are decent people out here. But when the ratio is around 90% men at a given tournament, that is intimidating for women. Those men could be the nicest guys in the world, but they would have to attend to know that. The fact is, many women won't feel comfortable even giving it a try. There is no harm in a women's league if it builds confidence and allows them to become comfortable with competitive pinball.

haha I was really confused for a second.

If you are a man who is genuinely offended by the existence of these leagues, you have a serious problem. And it's only a "double standard" if you are offended by it.

I know a lot of women who participate in the Belles and Chimes events in NYC and they absolutely love them. And it's gotten MANY women who are total novices involved in competitive pinball - people who said they were simply too intimidated to enter regular mixed events. Doesn't that justify their existence? Many of them also participate in the mixed NYC league and standard tournaments. I don't see why anybody would have a problem with something like this, unless you are really looking for reasons to complain about something.

The point of the league isn't to diss men or castrate anybody, it's for a bunch of people of varying skill levels to get together and play pinball in a friendly, welcoming environment. I'm pretty sure they don't hate men, as I've been asked to host one of their tournaments at the end of the month, which I enthusiastically agreed to. If I escape the event with my testicles intact, I'll be sure to let you all know.

Female perspective here.

I have NEVER felt unwelcome at any event. EVER. I have been more than welcomed by everyone involved. There are a grand total of 2 women in local leagues now and I'm often the only person there not attending as a wife. It honestly doesn't bother me.

That said. I would love a female league! It would let me meet more women in the hobby, it's a tiny handful down here and I'd love to get to know more women sharing my hobby. I don't love the insinuation that it's akin to children's leagues and lower skill level leagues if it's there to get more women involved. That implies women are avoiding it because they're bad players who need the bar lowered.

I am offended by double standards in general. That isn't a serious problem. If I cannot do the same that they are doing without raising a ruckus, it is a double standard.

After that intro I stopped reading though and am draining the thread. My point was made, some will agree. Some won't. Fun thing is it won't change anything regardless how much any of us discuss any of it.

You should start one!

Your point is stupid. It's the old "why can black people use the N word, and I can't" argument.

You don't understand it's not a double standard, and there's no point in explaining it to you really. A women's league that excludes men isn't the same thing as an exclusive "men's league," for the simple reason that there are very few female players in competitive pinball.

There's an all women pinball league, created for the sole purpose of providing a comfortable environment for women of all skill levels to play competitive pinball. There's a significant, meaningful reason for this league to exist. A "men's only" pinball league would serve NO justifiable purpose except to exclude a tiny handful of people.

You are not allowed to play in a women's league because you have a penis. This offends you. Are you offended that girls can't join the boy scouts? Are you offended that your son can't play on a women's softball team?

Come on bro. Get over it.

+1.

Make it formal or informal, start with a few friends and then grow...

There aren't a lot of black people in pinball either. Or Asians. Or deep sea fishermen. Or people under 4 feet tall. If every group that is under-represented in the world of pinball need an exclusive league to become interested in playing it's going to get really segmented going forward because the only thing we seem to have a majority of is middle-aged white guys...

There should be room for all groups to be embraced: all male, all female, and mixed. Maybe I am old fashioned in a way, but there are experiences and perspectives that should be shared in all male settings, all female settings, and in mixed-sex settings. A women should be able to choose to experience pinball as part of a "peer group of women" or as a mixed coed group if she chooses.

I get really tired of these folks that insist everyone has to belong to every group, too. For example, a mom that insist her girl has to be permitted to join the Boy Scouts. Everyone does not have to be included in every group.

Congrats to the worlds first female pinball league! "You go, girls!"

There's about 4 different fallacies in the above statement. The only thing lacking is a cargument.

We aren't talking about black people or Asians or fishermen. We are talking about women. You realize there's a difference right?

You guys HAVE to come up with better reasons for saying there shouldn't be women's pinball leagues. Your justifications so far have been pretty poor.

In 11th grade many years ago I bowled in a league and there was a girl there that I could usually out bowl but she was quite the pinball player. She would routinely beat me on high speed and I could usually beat any guy I played on that game and on many others. . She was very sweet and I wished I had stayed in contact with her as she was a great gal. Girls are just as capable as men to play pinball. Some have the knack and others don't and it has nothing to do with gender.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/belles-and-chimes-womens-league-pics#post-1113164

Good lord...where have people been...

It's pretty simple: there are 2 types of competition: open and restricted. Open competition is eligible for WPPRs, restricted is not. For example, we have a league that is restricted to people who live in the area (mainly due to the size of members' gamerooms). We don't earn WPPRs, and we're OK with that. We know we're not playing the best players in the city; there are other venues for that.

Women's leagues are another form of restricted competition. And despite the connotation, there's nothing wrong with it at all. My wife has absolutely no interest in our league, but I think she might possibly join a woman's league. That's a GOOD THING.

I don't think anybody would disagree that women can be just as good as men at pinball. But I don't think the intention of a women's league is due to a lack of skill. It's about comfort and confidence. It's a great way to introduce women to competitive pinball where they can feel comfortable. And most of these women's leagues have led to women trying traditional co-ed tournaments. Isn't that what we all want? We've seen that in Milwaukee and I'm sure other cities with women's leagues could say the same thing. But many of these women may not have even tried had they not had a league of peers that made them feel comfortable and confident.

Coming from a woman's perspective, an all women's league is cool If it gets more women involved in pinball. I have played pinball since I was a teen, and I have been restoring pins, and fixing pins since 2000 and I know how to tear them down and put them back together. I play in pinball leagues with guys, and I play in tournaments with guys, I have not really come across anyone that speaks derogatorily about me as a woman playing pinball. Most are very nice and will give tips on a game that you might not be as familiar with as they are. I am all for a women's division at PAPA not as a separate event but as an additional choice for any woman who wants to play. To me it is the same as the Jr. or Sr. divisions. Those divisions/league do not get points but are still popular with the respective players so why can't a women's division/league be so too. It has nothing to do with strength or ability or gender... Here are my thoughts when it was brought up for PAPA awhile ago...
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/papa-womens-division?tu=butterflygirl24#op
and the entire thread for those that wish to read it...
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/papa-womens-division

Phoebe

Ok, then here goes. I think it's great that there are women's only pinball leagues. I like that is promotes getting women involved in pinball which is a great thing. I 100% support this.

Unrelated topic, I'm starting a men's league on Tuesday nights at my family's ice cream place this summer. The game room will be closed to the public during these events. Sign up sheet to follow.

Problem?

Wondering if anyone has advice on geting more women intoroduced to the sport and coming out for a ladies league/play on a monthly basis?

We are noticing more and more females playing on route and my wife plays a bunch. It would be great to promote this aspect/area of pinball but unsure what are the best odds to get more ladies out and involved in a town with a smaller pinball polulation (but growing) and a limited number of ladies.

If there is anyone I can also put my wife in touch with for tips or thoughts then please feel free to message me. She would likely take the effort to organize a ladies night but unsure how to even get it started.

I'm not sure the post about her pit hair should have been moderated. She obviously doesn't care what people think about it why should you. I thought it was funny myself. Oh well.

I could put her in touch with some of the Milwaukee women, some of which I'm sure she has already met. They might offer some advice on how to get a league started.

awesome casey! Are you swinging over here in the next day or 2 still? we can discuss in person.

I'll be at Waun-a-pinball on Saturday. But family is now visiting on Saturday evening so won't be able to stay as long as I had hoped. So if you'll be at W-a-P, we can talk there. If not, I'll probably be making a drive out to Madison another weekend coming up for a day or so. (Hopefully for the Saturday monthly!)

To dung, it's really not cool to come in, 'make your point' then drain the thread so you don't have to 'deal' with whatever responses might come your way you don't agree with. This is the same mentality that keeps progress from happening in lots of situations - one side gets their point made then leaves or just closes down the conversation. So from that standpoint, I'd really like to see the mods drain your posts in this thread. Heck I might even make a request. After all, if you can't stay around to discuss, you really shouldn't be part of the conversation.

As for the league, it encourages growth and getting people into pinball, cool. As a male I think most of us know that an 'all-male' league might be dissed as sexist so the question why an all-female league isn't - well just look at who is historically marginalized, hint, it isn't the average male pinball player.

I haven't experienced woman being treated differently at events but then again I'm not a woman and wouldn't likely be in every position to notice. I completely understand the point the one woman (can't remember her name) had about being really disappointed that companies are still objectifying woman to sell games. AC/DC and Whoa Nellie are perfect examples of really sexist representations of women. I'm trying to find a machine to bring to my classroom but so many games show women in bikinis or other suggestive clothing or in submissive roles (needs to be saved). The artistic face of pinball has been and to a degree continues to be misogynistic. From this perspective, it seems that some levity in in order. I don't think men would be so keen on pinball if a great majority of images showed us as objects to be saved, preyed upon, or somehow weak. Good video by the way. Change isn't always comfortable but it's something pinball needs. I'd love it if I could put any game I owned into a classroom without sending the female students the message that they are still essentially sex objects that need a man.

Also, we are trying to start up an Auburn/Columbus area league and would love to have a diverse group. PM me for more info.

I'm always happy to chat with anyone interested in starting a women's league, or who just wants to talk about ways to get more women involved with their events! Feel free to send me a message on here, or contact me via e-mail at [email protected]!

Shimoda, most women I know who collect or play pinball don't see my pins as misogynistic or sexist. And women have never been "marginalized" in pinball. These seem like silly tangents to take this thread on.

thanks, I will let Heidi know.

much appreciated

This has already been addressed but I'll write it out for you again.

The idea of a "men's league" is really stupid, and it's not a great look if you are going create one - hypothetically or otherwise - to prove your incredibly petty point. It's apples and oranges. A "men's league" would serve only to exclude a small handful of players and has no other reason to exist. A women's league exists to get a large group of people involved in pinball in a friendly, welcoming environment.

That being said, nobody is stopping you. Go ahead and start a "Men's Only League" at your family's ice cream place, if you really think it's needed. In fact, you should also start a women's league also and see how that does in comparison. Will probably give you a good idea why a women's league is actually a good idea.

Or just keep typing stupid things on the internet, whatever you think is more productive.

Anybody who wants to start a Belles and CHimes league or tournament in their area needs to only reach out to the folks in the Bay area. They will help you get set up and "franchise" you. I can also send you to the direction of the NYC organizers and they can probably help you out as well.