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(Topic ID: 267373)

World Fair on off switch safety


By phillyfan64

6 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 49 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 months ago by phillyfan64
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 6 months ago

I’ve been doing a ton of reading on replacing the line cord on an EM. On my World Fair, someone added this switch years ago. Does this look even remotely safe? There are 2 separate line cords going to this switch. One coming in from the wall, then one going out to the primary fuse. There’s line voltage here with no switch cover.
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#2 6 months ago

Looks fine to me. Any odd behavior from it?

#3 6 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Looks fine to me. Any odd behavior from it?

No, it works perfectly fine. It’s just I’m wondering how safe it is after everything I’ve read. Why would they use pigtails with wire nuts instead of soldering direct. There’s no way to get a cover on there.

#4 6 months ago

Looks like a DPST switch. Typically it would have been done with a SPST switch and one pair wire instead of two pair. But it should work ok. It should have a cover for safety. How about this for a cover?

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/worst-hackrepair-you-ever-saw/page/53#post-5614776

#5 6 months ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Looks like a DPST switch. Typically it would have been done with a SPST switch and one pair wire instead of two pair. But it should work ok. It should have a cover for safety. How about this for a cover?
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/worst-hackrepair-you-ever-saw/page/53#post-5614776

Spray paint lid. Love it! I think I’m going to redo this with a SPST switch and a new cord. I like Pinwiki’s idea with taking the wires off the hold relay. Not sure if I want to go 2 prong or 3.

#6 6 months ago

Is a DPST the better way to go because it opens up the hot and the neutral? I’m confused now. Maybe I should leave well enough alone.

#9 6 months ago
Quoted from phillyfan64:

There are 2 separate line cords going to this switch. One coming in from the wall, then one going out to the primary fuse. There’s line voltage here with no switch cover.

That's a round about way of doing it, but works.
I splice right from the bounce switch, and always use
concealed contact switches..

#10 6 months ago

Hot wire to fuse first then switch, or switch first then fuse? Very confusing info on this.

#11 6 months ago
Quoted from Mopar:

That's a round about way of doing it, but works.
I splice right from the bounce switch, and always use
concealed contact switches..

Do you have a link to the type of switch you use?

#14 6 months ago
Quoted from phillyfan64:

Hot wire to fuse first then switch, or switch first then fuse? Very confusing info on this.

Newer machine example:

S76 Power Wiring (resized).jpg
#15 6 months ago
Quoted from DaMoib:

Newer machine example:[quoted image]

Thanks for that. That helps a lot. So Pinwiki or Mopar’s method is the easiest way to do this.

My cord has wire nuts at the other end also. It works but I’ve never liked it.

#16 6 months ago

I second Mopar's method tieing into the bounce switch, as this is how the game was originally designed to switch off. Also agree with his recommendation/link to the push button SPST switch or equivalent. I like push button rather than toggle design, as you can't see the toggle under the cabinet and sometimes you have to feel around to operate it, but with a push button all you have to do is find the button and push. If you want to make things safer, go with the 3 prong grounded plug and ground the cabinet metal parts.

#17 6 months ago
Quoted from JethroP:

I second Mopar's method tieing into the bounce switch, as this is how the game was originally designed to switch off. Also agree with his recommendation/link to the push button SPST switch or equivalent. I like push button rather than toggle design, as you can't see the toggle under the cabinet and sometimes you have to feel around to operate it, but with a push button all you have to do is find the button and push. If you want to make things safer, go with the 3 prong grounded plug and ground the cabinet metal parts.

I’m assuming this is the bounce switch.

Here’s a picture of the existing line cords wire with the wire nuts.
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#18 6 months ago

Schematic

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#19 6 months ago

So are you just basically replacing the bounce switch with an on off switch? Are you unsoldering those 2 wires and extending them over to the new switch?

By doing it this way, does this keep the anti cheat and hold relay in the circuit?

#20 6 months ago

In the Winter. I work on many EM arcades and pinball and have to think a little bit.
The anti-cheat switch is on the coin door, and the bottom board has the bounce switch,
and also the (I believe slam) switch. Your pick shows the Slam Switch which will work
perfectly fine. I've tied into that also. Of course you'll have to extend the wires on the
switch, then de-solder one wires off the Slam Switch, solder it to one of the switches
wires (don't forget to first slip on an inch piece of shrink tubing), then the other switches'
wire goes on the Slam Switch where you de-soldered the first wire. If you illuminate the
Slam Switch all together, then you just solder one of each of the Slam Switches' wire to
one of each of the switches' wires, but for some reason, I always keep the Slam Switch in place..
For your line cord. Just like shown in the pic. Hot to the fuse, Neutral to the transformer.
The cord's neutral wire is the one with the embossed lines running on the length of the cord..

#21 6 months ago

The only other playfield switch I see is this one.

011A9990-B038-4451-9699-63631EABC826 (resized).jpeg
#22 6 months ago

That's the Bounce Switch. Last month I added an On-Off switch to a Cowpoke and Flipper Fair
tying into the Bounce Switch only because it's closer to the front, but I've also done the same
using the Slam Switch. Replay Machines have to be the same, but if you put a piece of paper
in between the Bounce Switches' contacts then plug in the machine, you'll find it won't fire up.
That'll be the same as tying in a switch. It breaks the circuit.
Back when, instead of unplugging at the end of the day, people would kick underneath the machine
so the Bounce Switch would very momentarily break, making the Lock (or Hold) Relay de-energize.
I much rather add a switch than kick..

#23 6 months ago

Ok good enough. I’ll tie into the bounce switch since it’s closer to the front.

One last question if you don’t mind. I’ve read some posts against using a 3 prong. Some people say that using a 3 prong and grounding all the metal, it puts the person working on a live machine at risk if they touch the side rails. Why would that be?

#24 6 months ago
Quoted from phillyfan64:

Some people say that using a 3 prong and grounding all the metal, it puts the person working on a live machine at risk if they touch the side rails.

I actually only keep it factory and use 2 prong, but if grounding it could put you at risk, my guess would
be it would have to be wired wrong.

#25 6 months ago
Quoted from phillyfan64:

Some people say that using a 3 prong and grounding all the metal, it puts the person working on a live machine at risk if they touch the side rails. Why

The whole point of grounding everything metal is safely routing any stray current to ground if it gets shorted to where it doesn't belong.

#26 6 months ago

If you’re working on a live machine and touch the hot lead of the 115 volts (Say the convenience outlet which bypasses the machine fuse) while leaning against the grounded side rails, you could get quite a jolt.

A different example would be the difference between a floating ground and ground. For example, a three prong machine has been modified to where the ground pin was pulled out of the wall plug. It is next to a machine that is properly grounded, and the ground pin has not been removed from the plug. In theory, you can have a difference of ground potential, thus a shock hazard. (Took me awhile to figure out why I was getting shocked at a barcade while touching two machines.)

#27 6 months ago
Quoted from Billc479:

If you’re working on a live machine and touch the hot lead of the 115 volts (Say the convenience outlet which bypasses the machine fuse) while leaning against the grounded side rails, you could get quite a jolt.

True. But why would you want to touch a live wire in the first place?

On the other hand, if a live wire happened to touch anything ungrounded in the machine (side rails, legs, coin door, etc...) and you happened to touch any of those ungrounded pieces of metal, you would get quite a jolt. This would be an instance where you were not working on the machine, but rather just playing it with a defective wiring condition.

Did I miss something? Is there a reason not to run a 3 wire, grounded system?

Add the switch in this line shown in the attachment. Leave the bounce switch in the circuit...just in case someone wants to bounce the game!

Screen Shot 2020-04-28 at 9.27.37 PM (resized).png
#28 6 months ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Leave the bounce switch in the circuit...just in case someone wants to bounce the game!

He'll be able to tie it in the Bounce Switch (which is close to where the On-Off switch will be installed)
without removing the Bounce Switch. Just have to de-solder one of the Bounce Switch's wires and replace
it with one of the On-Off switch's wires..

#30 5 months ago

I did order the same switch through Amazon.
amazon.com link »

#31 5 months ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Did I miss something? Is there a reason not to run a 3 wire, grounded system?

No. There is a reason circuits are required to be grounded per NFPA electrical code. Way more often than not a 3-wire grounded system will be safer than an ungrounded system.

#32 5 months ago

Guys I’ve done some digging. Please correct me if I’m wrong. I believe the switch toward the front of my game is not the bounce switch. It is actually the shut off switch. Or kick off switch as it’s sometimes called. It is missing the round nylon piece that goes under it. Somebody removed it. I can see the screw holes in the plywood where the nylon piece used to be. The switch on the side near the score motor is the bounce switch.

So does it really matter which switch I tap into for the new SPST switch?

#33 5 months ago
Quoted from phillyfan64:

So does it really matter which switch I tap into for the new SPST switch?

I knew back when, just before closing, instead of unplugging, some kicked the bottom of the machine to
turn it off, but I never saw it listed as a turn-off or kick-off switch..
No, it doesn't matter, but I mostly tie in the (I guess) kick off switch since it's right in the front, and evidently
it was meant to turn off the machine anyways, although I am surprised Gottlieb put it there to have the
machine kicked. I thought it was there to limit abuse..

#34 5 months ago

Thanks Mopar. It is kind of strange. A kick switch? What were they thinking.

1 week later
#35 5 months ago

Almost done with this. Just have to solder up the new cord and the new switch. Spent the weekend installing new leg brackets ( major pain, had to shim everyone of them) and installed a ground braid to all the legs, coin door, lock down receiver which grounds the lock down bar. The side rails are ground only if the lock down bar is in place through contact with the lockdown bar. So when the playfield is up, the side rails are not grounded. So this supposedly eliminates the side rail shock possibility if the game is being serviced. Is this the way to go or should I make the side rails permanently grounded?

#36 5 months ago
Quoted from phillyfan64:

should I make the side rails permanently grounded?

Yes

#37 5 months ago

Thanks. I had started another thread about this. Guess I didn’t need to do that. I’ve noticed that one of the side rails does not make good contact with the lock down bar anyway. So I’m better off with a permanent connection. I’m going to have carefully pull out one of the nails on the side rails and install a bolt through the rail like they do on solid state games. Otherwise there’s nothing to connect to. I do have some of those that I bought from gatecrasher for my Bally games. That’s the only way to make a permanent connection. The only thing I don’t understand is why isn’t there the same concern with solid state games? They all have the side rails grounded directly and I’ve never once read a concern about the side rails posing a risk if a live game is being serviced.

#38 5 months ago

Gottlieb metal flipper buttons. Ground these also or is that overkill?

#39 5 months ago
Quoted from phillyfan64:

Gottlieb metal flipper buttons. Ground these also or is that overkill?

Good question. I think they should also be grounded, because if the button were to become energized and you had your finger touching the button and hand on the grounded side rail (i.e., playing the game), then the voltage would be conducted through your flipper button finger to palm on the side rail and you would get shocked.

#40 5 months ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Good question. I think they should also be grounded, because if the button were to become energized and you had your finger touching the button and hand on the grounded side rail (i.e., playing the game), then the voltage would be conducted through your flipper button finger to palm on the side rail and you would get shocked.

Thanks. That’s easy enough. As for the side rails, I did fix the loose lock down bar so it is making solid contact with both side rails now. So I think I can go either way with those now.

#41 5 months ago

After all that something is seriously wrong. I played a few games and it was fine. Then the back box lights went out. Then the main fuse blew. Replaced it. Blew again. Now the fuse is not blown but the game won’t start. With the new switch turned on I have 120 volts AC across the hold relay. With the switch turned off, I have 5 volts AC. That does not sound right at all. Why am I getting 5 volts with the switch off? Is it possible the brand new switch is bad? I wired it to basically replace the kick off switch. I disconnected the ground braid at the transformer so it’s not that.

#42 5 months ago

I've gotten very minimum voltage through off switches, and never had a problem.
On the fuse blown, this is when it's nice to have a 10 amp (even 5 amp) fuse breaker
on hand. It can save going through many fuses..
I have replay machines including a couple World Fairs, but not any yet set up..
I take it there's a Start Relay in the Control Bank. If you manually activate it, does
it fire up?
I can maybe see the 25V fuse, but the main (?)
You have a schematic? If so, I'd trace the light box sockets and 120V circuit..

#43 5 months ago
Quoted from Mopar:

I've gotten very minimum voltage through off switches, and never had a problem.
On the fuse blown, this is when it's nice to have a 10 amp (even 5 amp) fuse breaker
on hand. It can save going through many fuses..
I have replay machines including a couple World Fairs, but not any yet set up..
I take it there's a Start Relay in the Control Bank. If you manually activate it, does
it fire up?
I can maybe see the 25V fuse, but the main (?)
You have a schematic? If so, I'd trace the light box sockets and 120V circuit..

Thank you. A few things. I got it back on. Very loose fuse holder for the back box lights. Replaced the holder as I had some spares. Back box lights back on. Game starts now. I had also disconnected the wire going to rollover lamp #11. This is an old problem that I was trying to sort out while I had the playfield out this week. #5 and # 11 rollover lamps are somewhere shorted together. I had that problem 5 years ago and we never did find the short. Still haven’t found it. Probably never will. 5 years ago I had a tech try to find it. He couldn’t find it either. He simply disconnected the wire to # 11 lamp and ran a new wire from there to the relay bank switch. That has worked fine ever since but I figured with the playfield out I might be able to find it. Nope.

Still getting the 5 volts across the hold relay with the switch in the off position but everything seems to be working now. I think the loose fuse holder for the back box caused the main fuse to go.

#44 5 months ago
Quoted from phillyfan64:

I think the loose fuse holder for the back box caused the main fuse to go.

You wouldn't think so, but I'm thinking you could be right..
Years ago, someone local had a bowler sold to someone on the other coast,
and we worked something out, so I went through it. There was a short in the
light 6V line, so I put a breaker in that line and eventually got the problem fixed.
He sent it to the west coast and a couple months later it had a problem where
the 110V fuse was blowing. After being on the phone for a while with the owner,
I found out that I forgot and left the breaker in the fuse holder. Fast forward, it
turned out to be a bad 6V light socket that was shorting out and it didn't break
the breaker, so the next thing was to break the main 110V fuse which it did, so
your light fuse may have been arcing which had an effect on the main fuse..
btw: I've also gotten very small amount of voltage through 50V circuits quite a few
times and never had a problem. I've had 6V led lamps very dimly lit also when it wasn't
suppose to be, but no where near enough to show through the lens in front of it..

#45 5 months ago
Quoted from Mopar:

You wouldn't think so, but I'm thinking you could be right..
Years ago, someone local had a bowler sold to someone on the other coast,
and we worked something out, so I went through it. There was a short in the
light 6V line, so I put a breaker in that line and eventually got the problem fixed.
He sent it to the west coast and a couple months later it had a problem where
the 110V fuse was blowing. After being on the phone for a while with the owner,
I found out that I forgot and left the breaker in the fuse holder. Fast forward, it
turned out to be a bad 6V light socket that was shorting out and it didn't break
the breaker, so the next thing was to break the main 110V fuse which it did, so
your light fuse may have been arcing which had an effect on the main fuse..
btw: I've also gotten very small amount of voltage through 50V circuits quite a few
times and never had a problem. I've had 6V led lamps very dimly lit also when it wasn't
suppose to be, but no where near enough to show through the lens in front of it..

Yeah I do think it was the loose fuse holder that blew the main. The first symptom was the backbox lights went out. The thing was really loose. The one end was barely making contact. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was arcing.

Are you saying you still get small voltage with the switch turned off? I took out a DPST switch and replaced it with a SPST. I guess the double pole really kills everything because I don’t think I had voltage with the switch off before I changed it out.

Edit: I discovered the tilt roll ball was stuck in the tilt position. That may have contributed to the game not turning on.

#46 5 months ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

The whole point of grounding everything metal is safely routing any stray current to ground if it gets shorted to where it doesn't belong.

Absolutely. Here in the UK, most homes have ELCBs ( Earth leakage circuit breakers) and these are so sensitive that they often blow( in my home anyway) should there be just the slightest stray volt! Too sensitive perhaps, but at least there is no risk of suffering a prolonged shock.

#47 5 months ago

The 5 volts I’m getting has to be stray voltage between neutral and ground but I don’t know why. Zero volts between neutral and ground at the outlet itself.

#48 5 months ago

It looks like the stray 5 volts has nothing to do with the ground. I temporarily disconnected the green ground lug and I still get the 5 volts with the switch off. I ordered a new switch just to see if that’s the cause.

#49 5 months ago

If anyone is still interested I’ve been told that a digital multimeter can sometimes give ghost readings due to its high impedance. I was told to try an analog meter. So I bought one and it reads zero volts across the hold relay when the game is off. So there’s no issue.

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