World Fair
Gottlieb, 1964On my World Fair, when the ball drains the wheel should spin and it should score 30 points. It seems that after the 3rd ball, it’s not scoring. It’s set for 5 ball play. I cleaned and adjusted the trough switch that the 3rd ball seems to rest on but it didn’t help. Not sure where to look. Any suggestions? I can post more pictures of the schematic if needed. Thank you.
Quoted from HowardR:What is the Match relay (O) doing when this happens?
Difficult to tell because I need the playfield down to drain the ball. I’ll see if I can trigger it with the playfield up. A little more info. It’s not just ball 3. It just acted up after ball 4 instead of 3 so the ball number may not matter.
Edit. It definitely doesn’t matter which ball. It just acted up on ball 2 and ball 5.
Quoted from HowardR:What is the Match relay (O) doing when this happens?
I stuck a telescopic mirror through the coin door to watch the match relay. It doesn’t do anything until the game ends and then it pulls in.
So once the outhole fails to score the first time, is the game scoring everything else normally on subsequent balls except for the outhole? After the first outhole failure to score do all subsequent balls also fail to score at outhole or is it hit and miss?
Is there a 30 points and spin relay?
What’s it’s letter and post a pic of the schematic that has it in.
Quoted from HowardR:If the Game Over relay (X) on the relay Bank activates when this happens, put slips of paper in these switches to see which one(s) change that behavior.
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Are you saying put a piece of paper in each switch one at a time or all together?
Quoted from frenchmarky:So once the outhole fails to score the first time, is the game scoring everything else normally on subsequent balls except for the outhole? After the first outhole failure to score do all subsequent balls also fail to score at outhole or is it hit and miss?
Issue is intermittent. When it acts up, no other scoring is affected. Even the next ball to drain will score correctly.
Quoted from pinballdaveh:Is there a 30 points and spin relay?
What’s it’s letter and post a pic of the schematic that has it in.
I don't see a 30 point or spin relay but I will post some more schematic photos in a bit. Thanks guys.
Quoted from pinballdaveh:Can you post the part of the schematic that has the relay and coil list?
1B75C219-E545-446D-B550-E96A1BC099E8 (resized).jpegE7521720-2459-43D5-9056-0F017CCD665B (resized).jpegSo with the playfield up, I can manually trigger the outhole switch to get it to spin and add 30 points. Problem is once out of every 6 or 7 spins or so it doesn’t score. It seems like the spinning is stopping too early and maybe it’s preventing it from scoring. No 10 point bells ring when this happen. I’ve had that roto wheel assembly apart at least 4 times cleaning and adjusting it in the past. There are many times when it seems like the spin is not really complete but that has never affected the scoring in the past.
Quoted from currieddog:I would check this Outhole sw.
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I cleaned and adjusted the outhole switch and made it closer. Didn’t help. I also adjusted a switch on the K relay that looked too far apart. Didn’t help. It seems like it’s a timing thing.
Quoted from currieddog:Check these switches?
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I’ll report back.
Can someone please highlight the path when the ball drains, spins the wheel and scores 30 points. My head is spinning trying to follow this schematic.
So sounds like it is always activating the spin at the outhole but sometimes not fully, and when the spin fails it also doesn't score? Maybe try activating the outhole switch with the pf raised a bunch of times once more and see if you can eyeball any relays dropping out early before the motor stops, like the spin & score relays J and K, or any others. Since both spin and scoring are failing, might be a dirty hold switch on a relay or a switch in the motor that holds them on during the cycle and it is dropping out too soon.
Quoted from frenchmarky:So sounds like it is always activating the spin at the outhole but sometimes not fully, and when the spin fails it also doesn't score? Maybe try activating the outhole switch with the pf raised a bunch of times once more and see if you can eyeball any relays dropping out early before the motor stops, like the spin & score relays J and K, or any others. Since both spin and scoring are failing, might be a dirty hold switch on a relay or a switch in the motor that holds them on during the cycle and it is dropping out too soon.
It will score even when it doesn’t spin completely but I get what you’re saying. I will look into this also. I do think the two issues may be related.
Quoted from phillyfan64:Can someone please highlight the path when the ball drains, spins the wheel and scores 30 points. My head is spinning trying to follow this schematic.
Thanks HowardR. So there’s a lot of areas that could be causing this. Still working on it. Nothing so far.
Is the #2 photo missing? It’s blank.
Here’s a brief video of the issue. My hand is triggering the outhole switch. If you listen on the 1st two spins there are no bells which means no scoring. On the next 4 spins you can hear the bells which means it’s scoring correctly. You can also see the underside of the Ferris Wheel is not really turning as much as it should.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/heqmbc7s034sbub/AAADbLRC0xX-j5Ec3oBtz4AHa?dl=0
The j and k relays look like they are on that bracket near the score motor. Unscrew bracket from the wood, flip down to video actions of both relays for outhole operation. To check if either relay drops out before it should.
Quoted from pinballdaveh:The j and k relays look like they are on that bracket near the score motor. Unscrew bracket from the wood, flip down to video actions of both relays for outhole operation. To check if either relay drops out before it should.
Thanks. I have looked at that. I think they are dropping out too soon but I don’t know why. I made one small adjustment to one of the switches on the k relay but it didn’t help. I don’t see anything else on them that looks wrong.
Yeah seems like one has to be dropping out since it is sometimes missing the second motor run for the 30 points. M and the three motor switches right behind it look okay since when it scores points, they all score. If you've cleaned and adjusted J and K completely already it's probably one of the other motor switches behind them above that is supposed to hold one or the other. Outhole pulls in J and seems like J pulls in K and then K plus motor 2B on the next motor run are supposed to continue holding K to do second run for the points? Or J pulls in, then on next motor run K does, try to see what happens with those when scoring works right. But now I'm sort of guessing. Making my head spin too, two motor runs in a row like that are harder to figger out. You could try easy test of blocking the suspect motor switches above with piece of paper and see if one makes the second motor run *always* fail, like 2B.
Here’s another video. J relay is the 2nd from the left. K is the 3rd from the left. Definitely dropping out too early. 1st and next to last spin don’t score.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gla6v4yoeo6456f/Video%20Feb%2008%2C%201%2027%2036%20PM.mov?dl=0
It *looks* like J is holding all the way to end of motor run every time, but then K drops out too soon. If J and K have been gone thru, check/clean or re-gap motor 2B and 1B since they're only ones I see there that K's coil circuit can go thru, and 2B is at the very end of the first motor run like it's supposed to keep it held on for the second.
Quoted from frenchmarky:It *looks* like J is holding all the way to end of motor run every time, but then K drops out too soon. If J and K have been gone thru, check/clean or re-gap motor 2B and 1B since they're only ones I see there that K's coil circuit can go thru, and 2B is at the very end of the first motor run like it's supposed to keep it held on for the second.
I haven't actually cleaned or adjusted all of J or K yet. I only adjusted the one switch on K that looked too far apart. I will clean and recheck all of the contacts on both relays. I will also clean and check 2B and 1B on the motor. I think I have a basic idea on how to read the motor. I think!
Darn, looking at video again, J actually does look like it is holding in for varying amounts of time even when scoring works. Possible J is dropping too soon and that's what kills K? Both relays have switches involved in holding in the other, and themselves, so yeah make sure J and K are clean/adjusted.
95a304b554bb93bdcaf39b517ce4dd7b50123d99 (1) (resized).jpg
Quoted from phillyfan64:Here’s a brief video of the issue.
Did you check that whole spinner assembly for tightness and to make sure all contacts are clean and making solid contact?
Quoted from currieddog:Did you check that whole spinner assembly for tightness and to make sure all contacts are clean and making solid contact?
And the 'bumper advance unit' wipers and contacts, another route for the J coil. As opposed to regular switches, dried lube & crud on the contacts, sticky wiper action (if they are the spring-loaded type that slide up and down) or a broken/iffy flexible wire to the wipers could be a problem there.
I’ve now cleaned and rechecked the gaps on every switch on J and K and all of the switches on motor switch positions at #1 and 2. I’ve looked over the entire score motor and there’s nothing obvious that I can see. I even checked then 10s relay in the backbox. The spinner seems tight and I had it all apart a few months ago to clean it. I really hate to pull that apart again unless I absolutely have to. It’s a major pain but I will if I can’t find another cause. Still no luck.
Correction - sometimes scoring starts but is cut short at 10 or 20 points, but still looks like because J or K are cutting out too quick and the first three switches behind M are okay.
Normally I would suggest to unplug the score motor service switch. I think your machine might be to early to have one. Unsolder the gr/red wire from the motor. Test the outhole operation while manually slowly turning the score motor cam watching for relay drop out and checking switches at those spots.
I won’t be able to get back to this until tomorrow but I will keep you posted. Thanks for all the help.
If you tap K and it holds in, or you have to hold it a bit until it locks in and you let go, and it starts the 30 point motor run and K still sometimes opens too soon and scoring fails or cuts short. I dunno, that might help point to something or eliminate some things like J cutting out.
If you watch the failures in the second video carefully, sure looks once both J and K come on, J then drops out early first and then K does too but just slightly *after* J does, as if J coil circuit is the problem and when it drops out it's taking K with it. Right around the midpoint between the two motor runs. Motor 1E and 3B are involved in holding J in. When K is in, its hold switch for J is open so then it's just those motor switches.
Thanks. I will check 1E and 3B and report back tomorrow. I also need to do some research and make sure I’m reading the score motor switches correctly.
So a little update. I loosened the underside of the ferris wheel a little to give it a little more play vertically. That didn’t help the spin or the scoring. Holding the J relay down with my finger allows the wheel to spin a little longer. That triggers K which triggers the scoring. At least I think that’s what’s happening. Holding K down does not cause the wheel to spin at all. I’ve tried adjusting 1E. I don’t see an issue with 3B. The scoring issue still persists.
1B, 2B, 1E or 3B might just need a little longer closure time (i.e. they are overgapped and need adjusting to open a bit later) or they need cleaned. If that ain't it, back to pinballdaveh's suggestion of disconnecting/unsoldering a motor wire and turning it very slowly and see if you can get a J/K dropout right before or right after the completion of the first motor run (1/3 of a full motor turn.)
It’s hard to get good pictures of it. If there’s a particular area you want me to focus on let me know.
4A0A5B56-62F8-42C0-A8DA-6FD3F46AEE00 (resized).jpeg72E6A446-E0DC-40A6-B4CC-7617780CB28F (resized).jpegB844F54C-4364-4D3F-9983-A2F3C65117B1 (resized).jpegD03A3D76-FCF8-44DA-8ACA-1B6B80E6AF30 (resized).jpegDEAC1474-CCE2-447B-96EE-AACA9F9B1149 (resized).jpegHow do the 'spin when lit' bumpers work on this game? When lit and you hit one, do you just get a spin, or the 30 points too? Do your spin bumpers light based on the motor position (1 out of 3 motor runs) or the position of the spinner unit (the part where it completes circuit at pos 1, 4 and 8)? Trying to figure some things out not being able to see the whole schems including the feature lamps.
Quoted from frenchmarky:How do the 'spin when lit' bumpers work on this game? When lit and you hit one, do you just get a spin, or the 30 points too? Do your spin bumpers light based on the motor position (1 out of 3 motor runs) or the position of the spinner unit (the part where it completes circuit at pos 1, 4 and 8)? Trying to figure some things out not being able to see the whole schems including the feature lamps.
I can post more of the schematic. The way it works is when you hit a spin 40 when lit, it’s scores 40 points, (10 on the hit, then 30 after the spin). It spins the wheel and then the next bumper in a counter clockwise rotation will light up. Each time a lit bumper is hit, that bumper light turns off and the next counter clockwise bumper lights. Only the spin when lit or the ball drain will spin the wheel. Whatever number the wheel lands on will light the corresponding backbox number. Lane rollovers will also light the backbox numbers. (The corresponding rollover light will turn off). The object is to light all 11 Ferris Wheel cars. When a new game is started, the first bumper that will be lit is the last lit bumper from the previous game. Only 1 bumper around the wheel is lit at one time.
Ball drain score 30 points and spins the wheel.
I took part in the EM online clinic today. Issue has been resolved. Misadjusted 1E switch on the score motor. It was opening too soon. I adjusted it so it would open as late as possible. This was all a timing issue. Thanks to everyone here and to Mark and everyone in the EM clinic.
Yay! Of the motor switches I listed before, after your motor pics I was then thinking, neh, it can't be 1E because it's only actuated every third motor run, but the 30 point score is supposed to work no matter the motor position. Oh well I still don't quite get why 1E was it or what its exact purpose is but glad adjusting it fixed the problem. 
Quoted from frenchmarky:Yay! Of the motor switches I listed before, after your motor pics I was then thinking, neh, it can't be 1E because it's only actuated every third motor run, but the 30 point score is supposed to work no matter the motor position. Oh well I still don't quite get why 1E was it or what its exact purpose is but glad adjusting it fixed the problem.
Thanks. I don’t quite get it either. They had a timing chart of the score motor which I don’t have. That was the key to figuring out the timing. I’m trying to get a copy of it. They had me jumper 1E so that was always closed. That seemed to work. From there, they had me adjust it so it would open at the very end of the travel of the large pin that sticks up from the score motor.
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Monroe Township, NJ