(Topic ID: 151500)

Working on Roller Derby

By Toyguy

8 years ago


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  • 142 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 years ago by Toyguy
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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There are 142 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
#51 8 years ago

Some of those high current points require filing. Congrats on finding the problem!!

I just checked my parts bins - I do not have anything that is the right size. Pbr's contact points should work fine - the high current ones.

Screen alignment - this happens if there's gunk in the track, or if the shaft has been worn down. Look carefully in the track - hardened grease will cause this. If it's the shaft, you've got very little recourse than to live with it or find a parts machine. It's probably not the shaft.

Enjoy the game! Bingos are my favorite, and Roller Derby is a fun one!

#52 8 years ago

Dave - it sounds like you have made a lot of progress and are really getting that game sorted out. Your troubleshooting skills are very good - I wish mine were that good. I know just enough to get in trouble or it takes me quite awhile sometimes to figure things out. You are very methodical. Nice work.

If you don't think you can't make those points any worse you should maybe give it a go with the file. Maybe a few strokes at a time and a few attempts and you just might cure that switch ! Always could fall back on new high current ones from Pinball Resource.

#53 8 years ago
Quoted from bingopodcast:

Screen alignment - this happens if there's gunk in the track, or if the shaft has been worn down

What shaft are you referring to? I think it looks like the links between the slats may be worn. There's quite a bit of play in the screen.

#54 8 years ago

I mean the actual shaft that holds the cam that latches in each position. Unlikely to be the problem, but I mention in case that's it. See if the cam wiggles around if you hold the shaft. It shouldn't move much.

When you say a lot of play, what do you mean? The screen is meant to shift as it rounds the corners, and thus can expand and contract a bit. I have not seen one that has broken apart due to use, but it is theoretically possible. I certainly haven't seen everything (but I've seen and worked on a lot of screen games).

#55 8 years ago

OK, thanks. The cam and shaft seem OK. I think there may be some wear in the joints between screens where the guide pins bolt two screens together. I'm guessing those holes are worn. I'll probably have to take one off to see. Another one for later.

I also discovered that the reason the Score Extra Step index coil is disconnected is that it's burnt to a crisp. Have to get a new one of those and see if it's locking on at all once I put it in.

#56 8 years ago

Did some more work today. Man, this machine is a hack job! Found another loose wire, removed from the Play Features relay. I've noticed that the Feature Lock and Score Lock relays don't seem to activate. Is it a correct assumption that these relays should lock in when the associated Play relays do? If not, when should they?

Ordered a bunch of parts from Joe Shope - new reflex unit step down gears to make it less stingy, new switch parts for CU 7, Extra Step Index coil, couple missing counters. Even found one of the missing control bar instruction plates on eBay cheap.

Working a couple options for a new back glass. Just have to get those darned initial odds working...

#57 8 years ago

Feature and score lock relays hold when you press green or blue buttons, respectively.

Also, if a wire broke, could've been in movement. Not necessarily a hack. Some of the common hacks are removing the score extra step relay and coil, removing the blue section trips or cutting the wires, occasionally changing blue section to score differently, and some more.

Removing the wire from that relay is going to prevent hold of a color - not sure why that would happen. Likelier a cold solder joint. Happens in certain points and usually if marginal, will break in movement.

#58 8 years ago

Yeah, normally I would have chalked it up to transport but the switch blade is almost devoid of solder. It's either new and never connected or, more likely since there's a tiny bit of solder on it, that it was desoldered.

Since neither of my Lock relays are holding I'll have to dig into that. Probably explains why I am getting features anyway when playing scores only and vice-versa.

#59 8 years ago

Sure could! I guess the only thing I can think - and I've never seen this, mind you (not that I've seen everything by far) - is that in the jurisdiction,the pic a play buttons were either too confusing or illegal? Or perhaps it had been previously repaired and that was a cold solder joint and jumped off of both the wire and switch blade?

Who knows. But, I would check the manual to ensure that that wire color should be connected to that switch.

#60 8 years ago

Here's a non-electronic question...

What's a typical bingo machine playfield pitch? How do you judge the ball speed. Seems like too slow wouldn't give enough bounce off the posts but too fast would just end up missing the holes.

#61 8 years ago

You will have to experiment a bit. I like my games a little faster, but several of my games are lower pitched to allow for slightly easier number making. I can stick an inclinometer on one of my games and let you know. You're right - too fast and the ball will just fly out of holes.

#62 8 years ago

On my Palm Springs Bingo, in the manual under the Installation and Operating Instructions (set up page) they show the pitch to be set by placing a level along the bottom edge of the lower cabinet. I am guessing this SUGGESTED proper pitch is built into the playfield angle as set within the cabinet upon assembly from the manufacturing plant .

leveling_001_(resized).JPGleveling_001_(resized).JPG

#63 8 years ago

Thanks guys!

Well. something a little bit positive at last - the Play Lock and Score Lock relays now work. Turned out to be CU Cam 5E around C47 on the schematic. Supposed to be normally closed, but looked not to be so gave it a little tweak.

That said, I am beginning to feel like maybe this machine has reached the end of its useful life. It keeps developing random, intermittent issues in things that had been working fine which, in a lot of cases in other mechanical systems I have worked on, can often be a sign of things that are just plain worn out. It now is missing replays when awarding wins and when awarding OK games the scores will often, but not always, move all the way to the highest odds and keep trying to move further. The Magic Screen will occasionally refuse to move when it should. None of these were issues before, even after transport. Feels like I'm going in circles chasing my tail.

#64 8 years ago

Pos. 29 relay and mixer and spotting g cam 16 pulse switches govern red letter games. Ensure that the open at top switches are functioning properly.

It may seem that way to you now, but I've brought many back from the dead that seemed long past their useful life. You're just seeing the game react to being poked and prodded. I find it unlikely that it is dead.

Replays are counted using the replay counter discs. There are three and you need to be methodical about testing. Are all colors giving you an issue or just one? On the red letter game which odds are continuing to step?

#65 8 years ago

Hang in there Dave - these Bingo's are a bear - or at least working on the first two or three I will guess. Different animals. Also these games while they did run just prior to dispersal, I am going to guess sat for a long time before being reawakened. They are gunky and had rides to new homes on top of that. I'm guessing, but I think idle time before wake up is the big foe here and maybe they weren't all mechanically or electrically clean before they went to sleep. Some were probably less frequently played or more irregular maintenance than some others in the batch. I might be wrong but that's my gut feeling on these games. On the plus side were getting an education.

#66 8 years ago

A bit more progress tonight. I got my good meter out and started measuring voltage around the score unit guaranteed step circuit. I will confess to not having a great understanding of AC. Most of my other stuff is DC and the AC ones I do have haven't needed any real work. Anyhow, I was able to determine I had 50V at the EB Trip relay 1 switch on both sides, indicating that the switch was passing it. I also had 50V on both sides of the Mixer 2 relay switch. Next in line is CU 7A. There I had nothing, on either blade. I say nothing but the meter said about 4 or 5 volts. Hmmm.

So I pulled the switch stack off the CU mounting bar, wrapped a wire tie around it to hold it together and took a look. Close-up, the points looked fine and everything seemed to be mating properly when closed. I decided to jump 50V direct to the switch and see what happened. I jumped from the output side of the Mixer 2 relay to the input side of the switch and then closed the switch by hand. All 3 score units stepped up! So now I know what the problem is. There is something wrong with the wiring going from the Mixer 2 relay switch to the CU 7A switch.

I got to thinking about how I could trace this out when I remembered I had found a cut wire up near the Position 29 relay. I had no idea what it was, nor any obvious sign of where it should go. Out of suspicion, I continuity checked it and found I had continuity to the 7A switch. Hmm, OK, what if I jump 50V to this wire from the Position 29 relay. Must have picked the wrong wire because I got a loud hum and switched it off quickly. So I voltage checked the broken wire - 50V.

Now I am confused - how can a wire which has continuity back to the 7A switch have 50V on it and not have that same voltage appear on 7A? I still have no answer for that one.

So I jump from my broken wire to 7A and toggle the stack by hand - score units step up again!

So, now I am in WTH is going on here territory? I know what the problem is, I can solve it by running a jumper to 7A from the mixer switch, which is the path drawn on the schematic. The problem is the wiring harness connections are essentially unknown. Why does a wire anywhere up near the Position 29 relay have any connection whatsoever to CU 7A? There is nothing up there that's in circuit for these guaranteed score steps. And that begs the question - what's the broken wire with 50V on it and where does it go? I see no sign of anything broken off the relays up there. I may just have to cut the harnesses apart and see what goes where but I'm not looking forward to those big black ones.

Here's the wire up near the Position 29 relay:

Mystery_Wire_(resized).JPGMystery_Wire_(resized).JPG

And the 7A stack of out the lineup:

Cam7A_(resized).JPGCam7A_(resized).JPG

I've also decided the Score Extra Step relay switch was likely an operator hack. I thought it was broken but it looks like it's been cut:

Hack_(resized).JPGHack_(resized).JPG

And last but not least, the nice crispy Score Extra Step index coil:

Crispy_(resized).JPGCrispy_(resized).JPG

#67 8 years ago

You are close and you will solve it soon. It was rebuilding my can can that I learned how to use the multimeter to find issues with wiring. You need to look at the schematic closely when seeing were power is coming from sometimes. You can get 50 v feeding from more than one source and it can be confusing for a little while. Being stubborn will get you there anyone that is working through a bingo as well as you is stubborn!

I have had a strange issue with scoring this weekend due to the extra ball stepper drooping a little and interfering with the control unit cams. Maddening sometimes these games.

Enjoying your battle and my money is on you.

#68 8 years ago

Finally! Running a new wire from the output of the Mixer 2 Relay switch to the input on CU 7A has resolved the startup odds issue. I left all the original wires connected just in case they do something else. The schematic seems to indicate 3 guaranteed steps and that's what I get. After that it switches to random as it should.

Also soldered the unconnected wire back to the Play Features relay E switch. This feeds a possible circuit for OK games so maybe they will be a little more prevalent now. Once parts are here I can replace that Score Extra Step Index coil and relay switch blade. The only other remaining mystery is that wire hanging in mid-air up near the Position 29 relay. Not sure how I'll figure that out. Maybe it's a left-over.

Next big thing is scoring. Green 3 in-line scoring is in a runaway state. Yellow and Red are fine. Next I will test 4 and 5 in line, then move on to section scoring. The replay counter may also need a good rehab - it looks a bit sluggish at times.

The other big thing is structural, and that's replacing at least the rear leg bolt plates with the new heavy duty style that spans the cabinet corner. You need to be able to nudge this thing without worrying about it coming undone.

#69 8 years ago

Toy guy,

Have you switched the green 'replay counter' wiper arm part with the red or yellow replay counter wiper arm? This might shed light it an issue on the wiper arm. I had no scoring and turned out to be that. Long shot I know.

#70 8 years ago

No, I've not had the wipers off yet. Green used to work fine, so I am guessing it's a relay switch somewhere or I'll have to get busy and clean the reels.

#71 8 years ago

Replay counter units work with the score units to determine payout. For large payouts, a multiplier is in effect. The sequence and winner units are also in circuit, but only at certain steps and at certain positions of the screen.

#73 8 years ago

Sadly, no. Sick as a dog the last 2 days. I did notice last night that my "red panel" issue, where I think a first coin should immediately light the Features and Scores red panel, is more important than I thought. If the game comes up without that lit, the initial guaranteed odds don't appear. Right now, if I have plunged the first ball after using either the blue or green buttons last, the next game will come up with none of the 3 panels lit. In that case, no guaranteed odds until I manually hit the red button, then they appear and work normally.

Good time for some schematic reading while I am stuck in my recliner watching TV.

#74 8 years ago

Oh man! Sorry to hear that. Feel better soon!

Take a close look at your EB trip relay #2. This relay is super critical. I know we've talked about that before and that you've ruled it out, but you need to examine the one switch that powers your red button relay in particular, and the switches on your red button relay, too.

#75 8 years ago

My few bingo issues from time to time are with the buttons, the top rail buttons take a pounding especially the left and right screen buttons. I re flowed the solder connections on all the leaf joints and no issues since. To a lesser degree the red, yellow, green, blue and white play buttons.

Also at Xmas I forgot that a friend spilled her drink on a game that needs a beer seal. Yup the bingo and yes it messed up the replay button switches. Easy fix though but lesson learned.

Steve J.

#76 8 years ago

Haven't felt like doing much today but did look over the schematics. The Red Panel light circuit seems simple:

Red_Panel_Light_(resized).PNGRed_Panel_Light_(resized).PNG

I think the red circuit must be OK since the light does come on when the red button relay is energized. The orange circuit through EB2 also seems to work since the EB light comes on when the yellow button is pressed. I'm not seeing much to do here.

The Red Button relay is more complicated:

Red_Button_Relay_(resized).PNGRed_Button_Relay_(resized).PNG

Since the red button relay does lock when I hit the red button, I am writing off the Shutter Motor 6XA switch as it's common to everything. The orange circuit looks like it should engage the red button relay on a Tilt. I can test that easily enough. There's the purple circuit through the Anti-Cheat relay. I'll need to look at that. The green circuit may be depending on the Yellow button switch 3. I need to look at that. I'm guessing that must be a NC switch that gets opened when you hit the Yellow button to drop the red button relay out, it normally being held in by the yellow button switch and the red button relay switch. Finally, the red circuit through timer cam 17C needs a look, but since the relay will latch when manually pressed, I'm thinking I'll find it's alright.

I need to spend some time looking into the "first coin" startup cycle. Somewhere, something is supposed to be energizing that red button relay coil. Watching some videos today, I noticed on a couple occasions where the red panel light would blink just before getting turned off as the first ball was shot. Maybe it's happening then, rather than at coin-up as I was guessing.

#77 8 years ago

Well, so much for that idea. All I wanted to do was relax and play a few games. Fat chance. Now it won't move the screen anymore, although I can hear things engage when I hit the buttons. The initial odds, which were working fine yesterday but for the issue described in the prior post, are now not working at all until the second coin, even if you engage the red button first.

Another nail in the "this thing is just worn out" coffin. I'm getting tired of it.

#78 8 years ago

I hear you. You sound exactly like me when I got my first. The circuitry in these games is complex. Much more so than on flipper games.

Take a step back, rest up (and feel better!), and take a peek at it later. Tackle one problem at a time. It took me quite some time to fix my first 100% (about a month of effort, spread over a couple days a week for several months). Felt never-ending. But I did eventually get it. You will too. You can read schematics, which puts you ahead of many folks who get into pinball.

I'm more than happy to help, as I hope you see (of course, whether I'm actually helping is another story).

#79 8 years ago

It might be two or three minor things that in conjunction create havoc. I spent about a month and a half off and on on one of my flipper games. I would adjust one switch and it would effect another. Then something else would come into play. A chain reaction of a few minor things that have to be set just right can give you fits.

Give it some time off and look at again when you feel like it. You might have to do this over a period of time. A fresh look later here and there. It might take a bunch of sessions spaced out to get things sorted out. Take a few days off and have at it again.

#80 8 years ago

You'd think I might be happier right now, but I'm not. I spent some time looking at schematics then went down to have a look. Started up a game and got most of the features enabled. Shot the first ball and tried to move the screen. It now works fine.

This is what drives me insane. The machine is sealed up - door closed, backglass and playfield glass on, so nobody or nothing got into it. Nothing more than 20 minutes going by and now it works. I am afraid it is destined to be unreliable.

I believe it knows that I am upset as it coughed up one of these, probably in fear of its life:

4_Winner_in_Yellow_(resized).JPG4_Winner_in_Yellow_(resized).JPG
Win_PF_(resized).JPGWin_PF_(resized).JPG
Counter_(resized).JPGCounter_(resized).JPG

A nice 5 in line equivalent in the super section and a 3 inline red on the base screen thanks to the "Move after 5th Ball" feature being on.

At least it scored it properly Any yes, the backglass really is that bad. Actually, it's worse...

#82 8 years ago

If it worked fine this time without doing a thing since touching the machine earlier when you experienced trouble I am going to guess there are some loose or intermittent connections or cold solder joints somewhere. Just a little vibration from launching a ball, the credits running on or off etc could do it. ( I had a score reel on a flipper game that gave me fits once and I would adjust it, it would work and then the next day it wouldn't work - one of the issues was a bad connection at the coil that looked perfectly fine )

You will figure this out - It may take a bunch of sessions over the course of a number of days. Maybe even some weeks. You will get frustrated. BUT I think you can win.

Happiness with Bingos I think can be elusive at times. Hang in there. Take a break when ever the machine becomes more fixing frustration than fixing play or enjoyment. It can be fun or maddening working on any pin given certain circumstances or an elusive fix. Bingos magnify this - they are complex electrical mechanical games.

#83 8 years ago

Hahaha - happiness with bingos is indeed elusive. Still not feeling up to par, so went down just to play a few games. Played the first, no luck. The machine was being stingy, probably after the 364 replays. Went to play game 2 and, wonderful, now the green score unit and red letter units won't reset. I have some friends coming over tomorrow so I guess I am working on this thing after all

At least it was easy, this time.

Pos29_(resized).PNGPos29_(resized).PNG

The red circuit powers the Yellow and Red Score unit reset coils, through the Shutter cam 6B switch, so that was known good as they were resetting. The green circuit powers the 2 recalcitrant units and they have only one thing in common - switch E on the Pos 29 relay. Looked fine visually but I flexstoned it and closed the gap slightly. Problem solved. If only they were all like that.

I counted my blessings and called it a night. Here's hoping bingo show & tell tomorrow goes well.

#84 8 years ago

If anyone has access to a Roller Derby, or maybe even a similar machine, I could use a sanity check.

The schematic shows the Mixer 2 relay with 2 NO switches. Mine on the game has 1 NO and 1 NC. I'd like to know which is actually correct. Further, I'd love to know if, when playing the first couple coins, that Mixer 2 relay is staying energized, de-energized, or chattering back and forth.

My guaranteed odds are sporadic and this seems like it may be a contributing factor.

Thanks!

#85 8 years ago

I don't think I can pull my screen game or lines game out to film the mixer 2 relay, but it should stay engaged except when the timer cams on the control unit are turning.

All four switches on my Bounty mixer #2 are NO

#86 8 years ago

Toyguy you have the operating manual for the game right?

#87 8 years ago

Steve, unfortunately, the manual for Roller Derby has an oversight: Mixer #2 relay is not noted! This is an example of cranking them out too quickly in 1960/61. Or perhaps a page is missing.

I'm checking similar games. Bikini should work. In Bikini, just like Bounty - four switches, all NO. I believe that all your switches should be NO.

#88 8 years ago

Yeh jusy saw that. however attached is the can can operating manual exerpt and a pic of the four switches operated by the relay. Two are for the blue feature not sure if the roller derby had that.

DSC04639_(resized).JPGDSC04639_(resized).JPG

DSC04638_(resized).JPGDSC04638_(resized).JPG

#89 8 years ago

Good call, you're right. It doesn't have the super blue feature, blue scores as green 5. So it likely only has two switch pairs.

Regardless, both should be NO.

#90 8 years ago

Yeah, it's only a two switch stack. It should be a simple thing to swap the blades around. Here's hoping this wasn't done on purpose along with other hidden changes.

#91 8 years ago

Thanks for all the advice and sanity checks. I've corrected that switch stack to be both switches normally open and initial odds steps are now working as advertised!

That switch stack will need to be redone eventually however. It's a real hack job of 4 broken blades sandwiched together top to bottom (the solder tabs and contact ends are two separate broken blades), rather than just replacing the broken blades with new ones. This machine's weirdness never ends.

Now I still have to figure out why the red "Scores and Features" panel doesn't light up on starting a new game. It awards the odds now, but that light stays off until I hit the Red button and I hear the Red Button relay click in. I need to sit down with the schematic and figure out what's supposed to happen on a new game start to pull in that Red Button relay. It works when you first turn the machine on, as the Red Button relay locks in right away and, of course, it works fine when pushing the red button to play off credits. It's only when you drop a coin to start a new game that it comes up with that panel unlit.

I think the other remaining issues now will be scoring defects. I'm putting a spreadsheet together and will methodically test all combinations. That may reveal a pattern.

#92 8 years ago

Wanted to share something that worked well for me.

I had initially thought that the Red Letter feature wasn't working. As it turned out, this was a consequence of someone trying to "improve" the backglass by handpainting it using what appear to be house paint and brush. The paint is so thick that light barely gets through. To make things worse, they did the same thing to the #55 bulbs, slapping them with some sort of heavy red paint that made them way too dark.

When I got my new bulbs, I was thinking about how to fix this when I decided to try dipping them in a transparent glass paint I use for scale modeling. This worked like a charm! I just poured some into a thin, short cup and dipped the bulbs. I held them upside down for a minute or two until the excess pain ran off and there was just the hint of a drip forming at the bottom, then set them upright and let them dry overnight.

The photo isn't great, and it's still through the craptastic backglass, but it looks very good!

RedLetter2_(resized).JPGRedLetter2_(resized).JPG

RedLetter1_(resized).JPGRedLetter1_(resized).JPG

#93 8 years ago

NOS Roller Derby glass on eBay.

#94 8 years ago

Not so sure it's a hack. I have double leafs on the inside switches also of the no 2 relay.

#95 8 years ago

OK, good to know Steve. I don't mind leaving it alone - one less thing to do!

I'm already working the new backglass angle so we'll see how that all pans out.

I got a NOS replay register in today. I'm taking a somewhat-educated chance on it. It's the same AS-473 major part number, but the suffix is a little different. Looks the same though. Same switch stack, same 2 coil operating style. Even came packed with some vintage 1968 Chicago Tribune newspaper pages

Register_(resized).JPGRegister_(resized).JPG

Guess I'll see if it works tomorrow

#96 8 years ago
Quoted from Toyguy:

just poured some into a thin, short cup and dipped the bulbs. I held them upside down for a minute or two until the excess pain ran off and there was just the hint of a drip forming at the bottom, then set them upright and let them dry overnight

I do the same thing with Acrylic paint, but your method is a lot nicer as it will be more consistent. Acrylic is thicker.

#97 8 years ago
Quoted from Toyguy:

.
I got a NOS replay register in today.

Is that the one that was on Ebay?

#98 8 years ago

It is. Tonight we'll see if it was a wise purchase. The existing one is pretty worn out and very sloppy. The zero position units digit has about one number's worth of slack in it.

#99 8 years ago

Didn't have time to get the replay register swapped out but I did take it down and look the two over side by side. Same coils, so that's good. Mechanism looks to be identical in every respect. The only difference I see is there is one switch missing on the back left side. The original register has 2 on the left, the new one only has the make-break switch. I'll just swap that stack over intact and save the new parts as spares. Might even be able use them to repair my Score Extra Step relay with the cut blade.

#100 8 years ago

Swapping switches over sounds like a good plan. Hopefully you can use the new switch elsewhere as you think - that would be a bonus.

Everything else being equal the new replay register should be able to replace the old one.

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