(Topic ID: 202782)

won't start new game

By bullsbay22

6 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

0Out-of-Sight-Work-07 (resized).jpg
0Out-of-Sight-pinside-Work-06 (resized).jpg
motor key.pdf (PDF preview)
pasted_image (resized).png
0Out-Of-Sightpinside-Player-Unit-Work-03 (resized).jpg
player unit cam line up- out of sight.pdf (PDF preview)
0Out-of-Sight-pinside-Work-05 (resized).jpg
0Player-Unit-Home-Position (resized).jpg
out of sight schematic key.pdf (PDF preview)
CCI00005.pdf (PDF preview)
out of sight schematic.pdf (PDF preview)

You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider rolf_martin_062.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

#9 6 years ago

Hi bullsbay22
the theory behind is a bit complicated - later. You are nice and helpful to the pin - unfortunately You "help the pin" in the wrong succession of steps --- please do:
Toggle-off the pin - manually reset the Control-Bank - toggle-on the pin, do NOT touch the Control-Bank by now - but watch it --- big questions: Does the QB-Game-Over-Relay plunge / actuate ? Does the ZB-first-Ball-Relay plunge ? Both MUST plunge when You toggle-on the pin.
If "No plunging of the two relays": Write about --- If "Yes, both plunge": Press the Replay-Button - what happens ? If nothing happens then carefully press the armature on the S-Start-Relay - what happens ? Greetings Rolf

#11 6 years ago

Hi bullsbay22
Did the pin ever run in Your posession ? Or did You buy it "as is" ? Did the preowner tell some information to the pin ?

No luck - You have toggled-off, manually resetted the Control-Bank, toggled-on and the QB- and the ZB-Relay did not plunge (but the O-Outhole-Relay actuated, the motor run and the Ball-Kicker Coil fired). We could - maybe we have to do --- start troubleshooting on this. We were trying to be nice and helpful to bring the pin into the state "former game has ended normal - please pin: Do startup".

There is another way of "beeing nice and helpful - we accept what the pin is doing - then we try to do the very basic of resettting / start-up and try to bring the pin into position "One-Player-Game - Player (1) can play ball-1".
Look at the JPG --- see the bakelite turntable - the Player-Unit in the Backbox - go there and look along the axis - do You see some milky-white cams - and the last cam is black ? Pin is toggled-off - manually step - move the plunger and let go - do many steps - a full rotation is about 30 to 32 steps. Do stepping and stepping - You will see ONCE that the fifth, black cam actuates its switchstack - the cam only has ONE tooth - when actuating: You have reached the so-called Zero-Position also named HOME-Position. Then do some 8 steps more.
Toggle-on the pin - it kicks-out the ball --- CAREFUL: The pin is running - the Control-Bank-Reset-Coil is operated by 110VAC !!!. (As the pin is toggled-on) Manually reset the Control-Bank. Then go to the Backbox and step on the Player-Unit - step, step, step until You reach the HOME-Position. Then act as a player - launch the ball - does the bumpers work ? Can You move the flipper-bats - can You make points ?
We live in different time-zones - within half an hour I will go to sleep. Greetings Rolf

0Player-Unit-Home-Position (resized).jpg0Player-Unit-Home-Position (resized).jpg

#12 6 years ago

Hi bullsbay22
sorry - I forgot to mention: (Pin is running) Just before You do the final stepping on the Player-Unit to reach home position: Press and let go on the armature on the R-Hold-Relay and also on the H-Tilt-Hold-Relay - BOTH should stay pulling - THEN di the stepping on the Player-Unit to reach HOME-Position. Greetings Rolf

#15 6 years ago

Hi bullsbay22
great - You can move the flipperbats and You can make some points, Do the bumpers work ? Can You make some bonus ? Then let the ball drain - is the pin nice and steps down the bonus-ladder ? Then the pin resets the two banks of Drop-Down-Targets and kicks out the ball - the next ball ?

Far Out and therefore also Out of Sight is my Number-One pin --- I once made a post about the features of play - here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-em-tech-help-please#post-3458227 . Want to check the features ?

You must decide - please write "what You would like to fix first" --- playfield features / when You have a ball in play - then loose it: Stepping down the Bonus-Ladder and then giving the next Ball --- OR looking at the very beginning - toggling-on the pin - then starting a game - resetting and kicking-out the first ball to play.

pinrepair has a great video http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#axrelayvideo --- the purpose is "adjusting an AX-RElay" --- in Your pin there are no such relays - BUT have a look at (time in the video) 0:32 to 0:58 - at 0:49 to 0:55 (I believe his name is) Clay does manually make relays in the Reset-Bank to plunge.
TOGGLE-OFF Your pin - manually reset the Control-Bank, then make the ZB-First-Ball- and the QB-Game-Over-Relay to plunge. Step the Player-Unit to Home-Position and do step 8 steps more (mainly to not be in Home-Position) then toggle-on - question: Does the pin (still) kick-out the ball ?
Then press the armature on H-Tilt-Hold-Relay and press the armature on T-Hold-Relay (they must stay pulling) - then start a game by pressing the Replay-Button or manually activating the armature on S-Start-Relay. Then go to the Backbox and step the Player-Unit forward to Home-Position - can You play, make bonus, bumpers work - You let the ball drain - what happens ?

The Player-Unit I show in post-11 is a FOUR-Player-Pin - do You have the manual - the back cover shows the Player-Unit ?
Here http://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/emTips.html then here http://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/tip0451.html --- BUT there the "0." Text is missing - They should have added this: 0. Toggling on the main power switch make the ZB-First-Ball-Relay and the QB-Game-Over-Relay (in the Control-Bank) to plunge --- IF (if, if) the game before has ended ab-normal. For the following Start-up these two relays must be plunged. 1. Inserting a coin ...
Greetings Rolf

#17 6 years ago

Hi bullsbay22
I do not know the TWO-Player-Pins - do You have the manual to Your pin - the back-cover of the manual should show the cams on the Player-Unit (my JPG in post-11 shows FOUR-Player-Pin). Please show them.

Here http://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/emTips.html then http://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/emTips.html and on the bottom - the "9. The remaining balls ..." - I show the area from Your schematics - not really understanding - not knowing about the cams. Greetings Rolf

#18 6 years ago

Hi
and the JPG from Your schematics ...

0Out-of-Sight-pinside-Work-05 (resized).jpg0Out-of-Sight-pinside-Work-05 (resized).jpg

#20 6 years ago

Hi bullsbay22
into Switzerland 95 to 99% (me guessing) of the imported pins were four-player-pins. I never have seen the inside of an Gottlieb TWO player pin. If You have the manual: Please show the last page - the Player-Unit cams.

I am guessing from my Far Out schematics and the snippets You already have shown. NOT CLEAR to me is "how many steps are done in a "ONE-Player-Game stepping to the next ball" - my four player Far Out steps four steps. From Your post-19 I read for Out of Sight: TWO steps. If this is true (TWO steps): I then have an problem of understanding. See the JPG in post-18 - absolutely in the middle of the JPG we see the Player-Unit and numbers "8-9 for three-ball-game" and numbers "16-17 for five ball game".

In my Far Out (four player pin) the Player-Unit can be numbered on the positions -
Home-Position is when the pin has done the resetting and kicks-out the ball (Ball-1) for the (first) player (Player-1) --- Home-Position is also called Zero-Position - also Pos-0.
Then the following positions - always one step further:
(((pos-0 is Pl-1-B-1 (Player-1-Ball-1) )))
Pos-1 is Pl-2-B-1
Pos-2 is Pl-3-B-1
Pos-3 is Pl-4-B-1
Pos-4 is Pl-1-B-2
Pos-5 is Pl-2-B-2
Pos-6 is Pl-3-B-2
Pos-7 is Pl-4-B-2
Pos-8 is Pl-1-B-3
Pos-9 is Pl-2-B-3
Pos-10 is Pl-3-B-3
Pos-11 is Pl-4-B-3
Pos-12 is Pl-1-B-4
Pos-13 is Pl-2-B-4
Pos-14 is Pl-3-B-4
Pos-15 is Pl-4-B-4
Pos-16 is Pl-1-B-5
Pos-17 is Pl-2-B-5
Pos-18 is Pl-3-B-5
Pos-19 is Pl-4-B-5

So the schematics of Out of Sight have the "8-9" and the "16-17" information --- this would match fine, nice, pleasing with the stepping in Far Out --- BUT You write: TWO steps done and again it is Player-1 turn.
This following is hypothesis "Out of Sight" - two steps
Pos-0 is Pl-1-B-1
Pos-1 is Pl-2-B-1
Pos-2 is Pl-1-B-2
Pos-3 is Pl-2-B-2
Pos-4 is Pl-1-B-3
Pos-5 is Pl-2-B-3
Pos-6 is Pl-1-B-4
Pos-7 is Pl-2-B-4
Pos-8 is Pl-1-B-5
Pos-9 is Pl-2-B-5 --- hypothesis using Your "TWO steps" - but it does not match with the "8-9" and the "16-17" in Your schematics --- AND in Your schematics I see in that area switches "P3E" and "P4E".

Please play a ONE-Player-Game and tell me: TWO steps to the next ball OR FOUR steps to the next ball. Write about "Manual and last page of manual".
Can You enjoy the pin and play ONE-Player-Games - all is fully running ? Greetings Rolf

#22 6 years ago

Hi bullsbay22
thanks for the picture of the Player-Unit cams. Looking at these and looking at my snippet of schematics (post-18) I can say "Switches P3E and P4E" may have some influence when it comes to the end of a game. I counted the teeth on the steel ratched in Your picture - 30 teeth. I counted the teeth in the JPG in post-11 (Far Out) - 30 teeth. My "working hypotheses" therefore still is "In a ONE-Player-Game there will be FOUR steps done to step to the next ball.

See the JPG (here) - I mirrowed Your picture - I added "red lines" to show a single step. By now I struggle with understanding "snippet of schematics, post-18". Please show from Your schematics the "Motor Sequence Chart of Out of Sight" - as an example I show it from Far Out.

I do not fully understand the description in Your post-21. I would like to stick to an ONE-Player-Game --- questions: You start a new game and the pin starts-up, resets and kicks out a ball , true ? You have player-1*** lighted in the backglass and ball-1*** lighted - true ? You make some points and You make some bonus and You let drain the ball --- bonus is counted down - true ? and the pin kicks out the new ball-2 and steps some steps - You have Player-1*** lighted and Ball-2*** lightet - true ? You play through all balls and You finally reach "Game Over, visible in the backglass - true ?

On Player-1***, Ball-1***: The black cam-5 lifts its switchstack and the first white cam-1 lifts its switchstack - true ?
On Player-1***, Ball-2***: The black cam-5 has moved and no longer lifts its switchstack - the first white cam-1 lifts its switchstack+++ - true ?
switchstack+++ : On ball-2 another tooth on cam-1 lifts the switchstack - true ?
Greetings Rolf

0Out-Of-Sightpinside-Player-Unit-Work-03 (resized).jpg0Out-Of-Sightpinside-Player-Unit-Work-03 (resized).jpg

#24 6 years ago

Hi bullsbay22
here by now without desciption: The stepping in a ONE-Player-Game. In the lower right corner of the JPG: The Switch on the plunged PB-Relay (a relais in the Control-Bank) allows only the stepping "SCM-1A and SCM-2C are closed" - a shot of electricity can get to the coil on the Player-Unit.
When You have problems with an TWO-Player-Game: Check the switch on the PB-Relay - truely open when You have started for TWO players ?

In Switzerland it is midnight by now - till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

0Out-of-Sight-pinside-Work-06 (resized).jpg0Out-of-Sight-pinside-Work-06 (resized).jpg

#25 6 years ago

Hi bullsbay22
the advice on the switch on PB-Relay is true / good. In the JPG "doing the 2nd, 3rd, 4th step" - ATTENTION: Yes, second step is true --- for the 3rd and 4th step: a new JPG to come by tomorrow, greetings Rolf

Hi bullsbay22 +
post-24 I wrote "late at night" - I made some mistakes in the JPG. I cannot delete JPGs - please: Do NOT study post-24 --- may want to read post-26. Greetings Rolf

#26 6 years ago

Hi bullsbay22
on the end of post-24 I added some text.

Reading schematics is tricky --- the schematics are static - showing an momentary state in the life of a game: A game for ONE player has been started - the reset is done and the ball is kicked-out. NO POINTS are made --- the pin is then toggled-off and the main power cord is pulled-out / unplugged. Steppers stay "as is" - Interlock-Relays and the Control-Bank stay "as is" --- simple, ordinary relays loose power (as the pin is toggled-off) - they quit pulling. THIS is what we see in an schematics.

The JPG here shows the stepping in an ONE-Player-Game. Keep apart Motor-1A pulses --- 1 2 3 4 5 - and the stepping of the Player-Unit --- nothing, step-1, step-2, step-3, step-4.
In a TWO Player-Game there are two different steppings - AAA: Stepping from Player-1 to Player-2, BBB: Stepping from Player-2 (to next ball and) Player-1. See the "blue***" and the "blue text" in the JPG. When You have problem on the AAA: Check the switch on the PB-Relay (sitting in the Control-Bank) with the wires: white-green, white-blue --- TRUELY open then the relay has plunged ?

You can play a THREE-Ball-Game - but not an 5-Ball-Game --- in an three-ball-game You get "Double-Bonus" on the third ball - question - in a five-ball-game: Do You get "Double-Bonus" on the fifth ball ? Greetings Rolf

0Out-of-Sight-Work-07 (resized).jpg0Out-of-Sight-Work-07 (resized).jpg

#30 6 years ago

Hi bullsbay22
GREAT - You make progress.
The "Advance Unit" - Gottlieb calls it "Advance Unit Relay" - it actually is an Mini-Stepper.
A topic is https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/atlantis-match-mech#post-3572973
Another topic is https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/centigrade-37-alternating-relay#post-3703377 --- in both topics I show the same picture from pinwiki.
I first would toggle-off the pin - unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) --- then try to step it MANUALLY by press the armature and then let go the armature --- does the stepper step ?
If "Yes" we then use a Jumper-Wire - but first: The Stepper must step when You do it manually.

In post-29 You write about "motor 1C switch 4" --- what exactly does this means - do You count from the inside outbound the switches in Motor-Position-1, Level "C". What color of wires does the switch have ?

Do You want to say "the pin FULLY runs" ? Greetings Rolf

You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider rolf_martin_062.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wont-start-new-game?tu=rolf_martin_062 and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.