(Topic ID: 249691)

Wonka LE Sling Post Chipping in one month!!


By rs812

3 months ago



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2 key posts have been marked in this topic

Post #1403 Response from JJP from the Pinball Magazine podcast Posted by RobertWinter (3 months ago)

Post #1407 Transcribed response from JJP from the Pinball Magazine podcast Posted by RobertWinter (3 months ago)


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#66 3 months ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

LOL @ the guys saying "give JJP a chance at fixing the issue".
Wake up, time for school. They arent going to do jack shit about it. If they arent taking care of the pirate owners they arent gong to help Wonka owners in fear of pirate owners retaliation. Amd JJPs idea of service is to charge $550 for a new playfield that is literally plagued with the same problems (PROVEN ON POTC thread). Best way to handle JJP is to STOP BUYING their games until he gives Mirco the boot. Hit em in the wallet. This is my public sworn statement of which I truly hope I'm wrong . But someone please feel free to quote me in the future... I want to be famous too.

Your not wrong.....your spot on....JJP isn't gonna do shit about any play field issues....I highly doubt JJP can afford any more production delays let alone a big financial hit they would take replacing all these play fields.

#97 3 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Obviously not as long as they have trashy Mirco playfields in them. I'm really surprised JJP hasn't leaned on Mirco more heavily before this or just cut ties and worked something out with CGC or CPR. This is a serious threat to their business and it's gone on way too long.

I totally agree...the other problem is how they are dealing with these issues. Their basically radio silent (which pisses people off), and telling all existing customers with issues to pound salt....oh wait u can buy another flawed play field for $500....

#102 3 months ago
Quoted from jeffro01:

Odd response from your friends distro... The game is clearly defective. They can be touchy all they want so long as they rectify the situation which based on your post leads me to believe JJP may not do that...
I can say I'm not cancelling my Wonka CE deposit over this as I can only judge JJP by the experiences that I've had to date and my two JJP games are solid but it's pretty clear YMMV... hehe... Clear...
Jeff

I wish I had your faith....I've purchased several of their machines NIB, and love their games, but this is the last straw for me on NIB purchases from JJP....

#221 3 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Interesting that spooky just cut out the art in the areas where the posts hit the PF. Maybe they still have ink adhesion worries and are just doing a workaround?

Doesn't look as nice, but its a smart move....

#225 3 months ago

My guess is that JJP accepted all of the Mirco play fields thus eliminating Mirco from any fiscal liability (Thus the $550 play field replacement charge). JJP may or may not have known about these issues, but were under a lot of pressure to deliver so they rolled the dice and it back fired on them. I'm fine with these companies having problems (its pinball), but its really disappointing they decided to take the "Fuck Off" attitude .... I wonder what percentage of these games actually have this issue?

#232 3 months ago
Quoted from Psw757:

Don’t businesses that outsource work for components have some sort of insurance to guard against defective parts?
Just because they signed off on them when they accepted delivery with nothing installed doesn’t mean they weren’t defect free.

My guess is once JJP inspects, signs off then they take ownership. Once they start populating the play field all bets are off

#279 3 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Emerald City LE, the sparkly green armor version, not the stainless steel standards that came later. The 75th reds have been out for years. They're re-running them, but there's speculation it may be without the monkey mech, which they took out on the YBR ones, and that would be a huge fail.
Get a nice HUO ECLE with 2.0 lighting or 1.0 lighting and upgrade it to 2.0 immediately and you're golden. Best of all worlds, a direct-print cabinet unavailable on any other run, and about 4 grand cheaper than a new YBR and thousands less than a new 75th re-run that may or may not be gimped.

That would be the ultimate WOZ

#566 3 months ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

At $200 per game, I would never waste my resources as a company to try and sell them.

I couldn't agree more...$200 is a joke....

10
#791 3 months ago
Quoted from Psw757:

Someone did this a couple months ago, it was over 100 pinsiders having issues with POTC. Remember, pinside is a small percentage of the overall pinball community, some say 30%. So extrapolate that number and you will see it’s a fair amount of games considering they only made 1000.

It doesn't matter if this is 5 customers or 300.....the fact is JJP isn't standing behind their product....its says a lot about them as a company. I've owned WOZ (RR and ECLE), Hobbit, and DILE so I enjoy their games (none of those had play field issues). I've wanted to purchase POTC, and WW, but not willing to roll the dice on a $10K game when its pretty clear they won't stand behind their product. This is a big friggin deal, and unfortunately could lead to their demise....u have to take care of your customers....

#896 3 months ago
Quoted from Psw757:

You really ought to give it a listen.
All good except the last two minutes when the distributor hat comes out.
Seriously, he should edit that part out because it’s terrible terrible optics in my opinion as a seller of these brands.

The clear coat discussion was very informative .... the balance of the discussion was a bit of a joke....he was basically saying don't worry about a little chipping or wrinkling in your play field....that being said I'd probably say the same thing if that was my core business

#985 3 months ago

I've never had a problem getting in touch with JJP....maybe its your approach?

#1066 3 months ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

all I am saying is its not widespread be lucky if its more than 1%

so lets assume for a second your correct and its less than 1% of the games. So your telling me that JJP is handling the warranty issue correctly? Thus far their solution is to sell that customer a $550 play field....u can't possibly agree with that solution? Who ever came up with that solution should be fired on the spot....if its less than 1% than replace the play field with a new one....the reality is its waaayyyyy more than that, and JJP can't afford to replace these play fields, because they have no "free cash"..... clearly the investors are sick of throwing good money after bad....Jack may be a good salesman, but clearly he knows nothing about running a large manufacturing business....JJP is running out of gas

#1072 3 months ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

my comment was re Stern and the 10,000 games last year was the 1% comment
The $550 playfield was a guy who bought a used game which was out of Warranty, I am sure JJP will take care of its customers, the same as Stern will.

So do you think its reasonable that JJP replaces these play fields or simply ignore the issue? Stern in the past has replaced play fields with problems. Thus far all JJP has done is told its customers to pound salt.....its a really bad business decision, and unless they change course it will lead to their demise.

#1074 3 months ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

Can't understand why anyone would buy a replacement PF
A) To fix a manufacturing defect that should be the responsibility of the manufacturer
B) For an issue they have yet to publicly acknowledge and say it's fixed 100%
And when they actually do fix this for good (which at this point I still have confidence they will) then you still need the skill and hours required to do a PF swap
Can you imagine if Ford had a recall and not only made you buy the new part, but shipped it to your home for you to install.

Its indicative of the industry. Manufacturers have a sweet heart deal. For the most part they NEVER or RARELY provide any on site services to customers. They all rely on the customer to actually provide the services. Supplying the parts is cheap. What gets really expensive is the labor to do the work....which is why JJP's solution is even more surprising....I can't imagine that the play field costs Mirco and more than $200...yet JJP is trying to sell the play field for $550....its crazy that someone really thought that was a good idea...

#1081 3 months ago
Quoted from Psw757:

I agree with all of this.
I asked them if I drove my PF over to JJp in NJ if they could assist in swapping for me.
They told me he’ll no, asked about getting populated pf for $550, said not possible.
Can’t imagine attempting a swap on this particular game, there is so much shit on the PF....countless things can go wrong for the average hack!

The most cost effective solution for JJP is to send customers a box/crate. The customer (at his or her own cost) would have to remove the play field and send back the entire play field to JJP. JJP would then do the swap in their factory and send back the populated play field. All JJP would be out is the shipping costs, and the labor to do the swap.....yes it would suck for the customer as he or she would have to figure out how to do the swap, and then pray they don't damage the cabinet when doing it.

#1138 3 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Its not a fun game for noobs for sure. Play better!

could of been a classic if Stern had a programmer that was dedicated to fine tuning the code....instead he's lazy and could give two shits

#1172 3 months ago
Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

Oh my goodness. They are only doing that because you guys made it out to be a big deal. Not unlike how a toddler freaks out over a popped balloon, or a dropped ice cream cone, and then the parent buys them another one. Stern is simply soothing you guys.

Clearly your completely oblivious to the point....its fine that you have low expectations, but many of us do not. Especially after forking out almost $10K on a NIB game that is clearly flawed.

#1179 3 months ago
Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

Just Pong. It's awesome. No need to pander.

Maybe. The straw man reply annoyed me, as did the lawyer. And I'm fed up with the cynical manipulation and pitch fork parties over every little QC defect. It is literally consuming a lot of NIB buyers and preventing them from enjoying the hobby.

your an operator ... u buy games in the hope they bring you money.....once their beat or stop earning you sell them off and move onto the next title with most likely a little $ in your pocket. We buy games to keep in our homes and expect a quality product, along with reasonable customer service....its not our fault these manufacturers tailored their sales and marketing pitch to home owners (and raised the prices significantly). I'm not understanding why u think we shouldn't give a shit? The manufacturers came up with the business model and many of us have bought into it....it has nothing to do with not enjoying pinball...if we didn't enjoy we wouldn't be in the hobby. If I'm gonna fork out $10K for a game then it better perform, and not start falling apart in the first 30 days.

#1187 3 months ago
Quoted from o-din:

Not quite all of it when it comes to pinball.
The most important thing a pinball machine is designed to do as a coin operated commercial machine is to take quarters or dollar bills and I'm not sure many pinball collectors have explored, used, or even care about that aspect on the machines they own.

very true....I could give a rats ass how much a game may or may not earn....their all free at my house....

#1191 3 months ago
Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

Thank you.

Selling used pins is no problem. The majority of buyers are not so unrealistic as to expect used pins to be absolutely flawless. They're used. Minor blemish here or there should be expected. Hence the word "used". That's why they're cheaper. If you're local and have one I'm looking for I'll buy it. No problem.

I've purchased and sold a lot of games over the years, and I would agree that most buyers don't expect a game to be flawless; however they certainly don't expect a play field thats chipped or showing signs of failure (especially on a new title). There is no doubt that game would be heavily discounted by the seller. From an operators perspective you probably don't care as its sitting in some bar hopefully collecting dollar bills, and once it stops earning u sell the game and move on. We look at pinball through entirely different lenses.

#1223 3 months ago
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

You're really full of yourself aren't you? I was attempting to utilize a real world example of something that might resonate in that brain of yours. Apparently either I missed the mark or it just flew right over your head.
Let's try this another way. You deliver a pong machine to one of your customers and help them set it up. While unboxing it, they notice a chunk out of the side of the machine and point out the damage. Based on your activity in this thread, I see your response as a distributor being something along the lines of "Well it's just a manufacturing defect, so get over it. Now give me my $3,000 and stop wining like a baby with a popped balloon."
I paid a good bit of money for my BM66 and I'm not thrilled when I have to stop playing, take off the glass and pull out a chunk of the play field in the middle of a game. Maybe you don't give a rats ass how your stuff holds up, but I do.

In his world he's probably happy these games are cracking/pooling/chipping....it gives him the ability to purchase a great HUO game at a steep discount. He's just going to put the game on route, and then resell. We live in different worlds, thus have different expectations...

11
#1253 3 months ago

Mad respect for a company owner is willing to post responses to people who clearly are just trying to cause drama, along with sharing his insight on the issue at hand....all we really want to know from JJP and Stern is what have they done to solve the problem from happening in the future, and what is the remedy for the customers who really have problems....its really not that hard. The fact that they have swept this issue under the rug for over a year is very frustrating to consumers....JJP wants to be the best of the best....well than act like it....

#1279 3 months ago

JJP's silence is driving everyone mad....

#1417 3 months ago

I could have predicted this "canned" response...he basically said there is no issue, and if u think u have one please let me know so I can tell u to go fuck yourself. Interesting that he didn't mention POTC, which is where the issue originated. Its all about short term life support

#1418 3 months ago
Quoted from o-din:

Sounds like somebody needs to "get with the program".

exactly! which is shut the hell up, and enjoy your game....there is no issue

#1434 3 months ago
Quoted from WackyBrakke:

I know I’m out. For a long time. And I bought 2 WOZ, a Hobbit, a Dialed In. And numerous Sterns. I’m done with NIB. Done with Spike. Done. I’ll see what Spooky does next, I like them a lot. I’m happy where I am at with my collection, just play em and avoid all this new drama.

I'm in the same camp....I would add CGC to the list...they make a quality product

#1439 3 months ago
Quoted from WackyBrakke:

Yeah CGC is good too! But they did the 3 I was interested in

Funny I bought 2 WOZ games (RR and ECLE), DI, and Hobbit Smaug....had some cabinet issues with Smaug, but all the others were great....IJ or WW are the only two CGC remakes I would purchase....

#1491 3 months ago
Quoted from pipes:

It seems that as quality control continues to slide and more issues continue to arise year after year, the disclaimer page that is now included with these games will continue to get longer and longer. Pretty soon the disclaimer will be nicely bound and sold separately for $100 on their website.

Thats funny....unfortunately it could be true I don't know Jack, but always had a lot of respect for his entrepreneurial spirit. JJP makes really great games that the entire family enjoys. I think many of us are fine with paying top dollar for the games, but that comes with expectations that they will stand behind their product. Collectors not only want a really fun game, but they want that game to look great. These play field issues are a big deal, and JJP needs to be proactive in figuring out the problem. I suspect many people will continue to buy their games if they solve these play field problems. Unfortunately I don't think JJP will ever replace play fields on POTC or Wonka (let alone a populated play field) or even provide that buyer with a new play field....they simply can't afford the financial hit. When we as consumers buy their product we're really rolling the dice.

-1
#1527 3 months ago
Quoted from drfrightner:

As for Godzilla you must be crazy... Godzilla I want to see a Godzilla game with great CGI on the screen, movie clips, over the top toys, amazing artwork, unique mechs, and you want to ship it to Spooky? HUH?
Did I miss something? Now we've slipped this deep off the edge!

and u think Stern will secure the movie rights? just look at JP...basically ZERO movie assets...its basically a dinosaur them with the JP logo and them song....such a disappointment for a well designed game

#1532 3 months ago
Quoted from drfrightner:

Hey we agree and I'll go one further why did they do Deadpool. I'm betting not one person who worked at Stern had ever even heard of Deadpool until the movie came out. The game was driven by the popularity of the movie, and its not about the movie. HUH.
This new Dino theme I'm calling it DINO THEME, because it has NOTHING to do with Jurassic Park NOTHING.
JJP was savagely beaten over the head about Pirates not having enough movie integration and now Wonka doesn't have enough... but Deadpool has ZERO and their new game doesn't even use JP artwork. I'm like huh? You must be kidding to rip on Wonka for not enough with JP has ZERO!
So I agree with you... I didn't say I want Stern to do Godzilla, just saying I don't want to see Spooky do it. That has to be a joke who knows.
BTW Stern can do a great job of integration when they put out the effort. See Batman 66, even though technically they didn't do it, it was still great.

I agree they could do a great job of integration, and BM66 is a great game....the great thing about Stern is they pump out games....the bad thing is they are very cheap when it comes to securing rights (BM being the exception)....who knows maybe the rights to Godzilla are cheap so its a mute point.

#1637 3 months ago
Quoted from cjmjmm2006:

We are up to 10 units (2 standards and 8 LE) and this game has been polarizing. People are PMing me about issues with my games and taking pictures and asking if they can complain to Jack and company about it?? I don't usually have an opinion but guys/gals please let me handle it. I'm happy to talk to the guys at JJP about these issues but I want to see the results of what the games look like after 90+ days at least.
Thanks for all the info and I do appreciate the concerns of our customers and fans of the games. Let's see where this goes. Best,
Chris

who are u ? A distributor?

#1890 3 months ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

On this topic I don't agree! DOWNVOTERS START YOUR ENGINES LOL
In response to this and Flynibus reply I think this is a key issue. If you are buying NIB its literally a crap shoot on what you get. Take my last purchase - MBR. a few of them came to the UK including my number matched game. So you pay your £8500, so does your buddy down the road. you get one with the problems, he doesn't and immediately you've lost a wedge of cash on an expensive item. Thats total nonsense and there is no way that should be the case.
Having watched CGC games be delivered here on Pinside; in my view they, CGC, suck on packaging the game to avoid damage. The games are brilliant but there are too many posts of games damaged in transit. I predicted a number of them coming to the UK would be damaged and a number of them were. Fearful my own game would be one of them. But to those buyers they didn't find that out until after they had the game. My game arrived in mint condition with no damage. If it hadn't done I'd have sent it back for either replacement or refund. (the dealer here is excellent and is sorting the situation out).
If you buy second user then for the most part you know what you are getting, or you can go inspect it play it and have a look at it. All of the MBR games that arrived that are damaged play fine but a couple of them have huge damage including one that has a massive dent in the armour where the glass slides in. The dealer here is exceptional and managing the problem for them (he has also has stated to JJP that he won't take any more games until this issue is resolved). But the games play fine so they should just accept that? I see no difference other than its simpler to swap out a bit on the cabinet than on a playfield- so what?!
In my view that's the **price for the manufacturers of being in the pinball business** Given a choice of a game without playfield issues and one with, no second user is buying the one with the playfield issues and irrespective if you plan to keep the game for a while or sell it for the next new thing is irrelevant; the games should come without damage on them. I can't think of another industry that would find this acceptable. Even the LCD folks gave up with their minimum pixel failure rate because it was bullshit too.
Whilst I have a lot of games, I'm not a collector, I'm a player and here in the UK there are few good places to play. I want my games to look and play great, I run four to six tournaments or meetings at my house; I stream my crap playing too! Folks come from all over the country to play; I also host three autistic charity events every year and again I want my games to play and look great, but I'm mostly concerned with the playfield I don't want to be explaining on stream some huge cornflake of damage at each post FFS! if the cabinet has a few dings I'm less worried about that than any playfield damage; and why I was super disappointed with TNA especially as it was non-trivial to get one to the UK. From the moment I played the proto I wanted TNA when they announced it was going to be built. Hell yes! So I bust a gut to figure out how to import it to the UK personally.
I'm not going to accept this as the new norm because 30 years of pinball history says it doesn't have to be the new normal. Those that think this issue is not a big deal I really struggle with, but when I look at that it's usually those that will never have to face this problem and I understand that's simply human nature.
Regards,
Neil.

I've had 3 CGC games shipped to my house with zero issues....the games are packed exactly like Stern, and JJP games....they use the same materials, box, crate, etc....

#1963 3 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

OMG dude really? All it takes is a personal call from Jack and you are all giddy and happy now? Do you think he’s calling people because he’s a great guy? Hell no, he’s calling people because his business is going down the shitter and he’s trying to save it! Its amazing how some people can be made happy about getting screwed on a 10K game just from a phone call from Jack! If he called me i would be giving him a f*cking ear full instead of kissing his ass!

Truth....I watched a little of that tour video, and he was pretty clear about his feelings on play fields. Cant wait to hear about your conversation with Stern...at the moment it sounds like their sweeping their play field issues under the rug....it might not be much, but at least JJP is admitting theres a problem (kind of)

#2104 3 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Actually the flood of high priced NIB pinball machines, perfect or not, is living on borrowed time.

No doubt...its gotten out of control....

#2107 3 months ago
Quoted from Dr-pin:

Agreed, but i think the first thing you will see is a massive drop on the use market. When thoose fast buyers and sellers can´t sell, then they will soon stop buying new.

Its already starting to happen.....Munsters, IM, DP LE's all selling for $1-2K below NIB cost....I had a chance to buy a HUO (50 plays) Munsters LE or $6800, but passed on the deal...

#2110 3 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Munsters values have tanked so much mainly due to code depth and code variety. If an update is released that increases code depth I bet priced will go up a bit.
Dead Pool LE's are holding value much better partially for the complete opposite reason, excellent code support and a deep ruleset. A $1k hit isn't too bad (Dead Pool), $2k though hurts a lot more (Munsters). BKSOR LE's also appear to be taking close to a $2k hit. Either way theres only so many buyers willing to pay the high end prices.

Forgot about BKSOR LE's ... I think the party is over for these high prices, and lower quality....these play field issues are possibly the straw that breaks the camels back.....people can't be happy taking a $1-$2K hit on these LE's ....

#2111 3 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I should have mentioned CGC as "left standing". My MBRLE is beautiful and the PF is flawless

so are mine !

#2114 3 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

That's the norm...not a pop. It's normal "depreciation"
It's actually abnormal, not normal, to break even or better on a NIB game. The appreciation of game values in the used market does not apply uniformly to the games that were bought NIB.. especially at the LE price points.
It's pretty common for the NIB games to drop 500-1000 in the first year or two.. then stabilize the drop off rate. Mucking with things is the radically increasing NIB prices of late. There used to be more a trend of a HUO premium would be about X dollars... a HUO pro would be about Y... etc that would be pretty consistent across the different titles... stinkers excluded (WWE).
The only time games were appreciating was during the frenzy of 'gotta have it' and constrained availability. Once those games are all sold and in the market for a bit... the frequency of people are paying a premium over NIB prices is actually quite low.
It's why people like me are never in a hurry to buy NIB... there is no reason to (as a consumer). Just let the games develop, see which are worthy, and buy a HUO low play game at a discount if you decide you need to have that game.

Aside from the remakes I'll probably never buy another NIB game....there's just no reason to take the risk, and in my area nice used HUO games eventually come on the market.

1 month later
#2163 53 days ago
Quoted from jfh:

True. I was the one that asked the questions.

They were good questions....and I was less than impressed by his arrogant responses.....

#2178 52 days ago

Hey man I've never seen anyone who loves to play pinball more than Zaphx....he puts more games on his machines in a week than I do in a year Cant fault a guy for loving the hobby, and not worrying about the play field. I myself would be aggravated, but everyone is different. To that point I'm not sure I'll ever buy a NIB game again....I just picked up a POTC LE that had 80 plays on it with no cracking, and very very minor pooling if u look hard enough. I actually installed the complete set of Cliffy's yesterday, which was a bit of a pain in the ass.

#2195 52 days ago
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

In no way am I waiving a pitchfork, but you can be damn straight that I'm not going to buy another game until JJP and Stern come out and say "We've resolved the issue with the play fields and have done "X" to take care of these who experienced the issue".
Am I going to play my BM66, absolutely. Am I going to throw piles of hundred dollar bills at them before they resolve, let alone even acknowledge the issue...No way. Are you insane?

Its really simple....do what I've done, and stop buying NIB games. The only reward one gets by buying NIB is u get the experience of opening the box, and setting up the game for the first time. Trust me that experience is over rated. You can save yourself a bunch of grief (and a little $) by buying a nice HUO machine that u can inspect prior to purchasing...there are hundreds of bozos like myself that have purchased NIB games and put less than 200 plays of them before their ready to move onto the next title....

1 week later
#2215 45 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

These issues have not ruined my fun at all but it leaves a real bad taste in my mouth to spend 7500 on a new Stern Premium and learn that I have pooling around the posts and chips in my playfield that has actually pulled the artwork off of the game.....that sucks bad.
I'm also aware that I am not poor and that I am very fortunate to have what I have, so saying that I'm a poor schlep was obviously an exaggeration. I am however an average guy who busts his ass in a factory and it takes me a hell of a long time to save up enough money to buy a new game. Truthfully I probably shouldn't even be buying pinball machines but I love pinball and it's my hobby.
Long story short, as hard as I have to work and as long as it takes me to save up for a new game, it probably bothers me a little more than someone that has a much bigger income than myself. That's why I take such great pride in my collection and why I take care of them the way that I do and why I want them to be in pristine condition. Call me weird but I don't want my $7500 dollar NIB pinball machine to have a defective playfield with chips in it.

Your feelings make perfect sense whether u have a lot of disposable income or not. For me its more about principal. I've always thought these companies have it made in that they depend on the pinball enthusiasts to provide labor to repair their games, which in turn saves them a ton of money. So when theres issues they should all step up to the plate and resolve. Due to all of this I refuse to ever buy another NIB game (CGC being the exception), and will just wait and get a nice HUO game. I just picked up a perfect POTC LE (with no pooling), and 76 plays for less than a NIB game would cost, and it had over $700 of really nice mods. So if your patient this is the way to go.

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