(Topic ID: 249691)

Wonka LE Sling Post Chipping in one month!!


By rs812

57 days ago



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2 key posts have been marked in this topic

Post #1403 Response from JJP from the Pinball Magazine podcast Posted by RobertWinter (45 days ago)

Post #1407 Transcribed response from JJP from the Pinball Magazine podcast Posted by RobertWinter (45 days ago)


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#147 56 days ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

It looks like the posts were tightened down too much on a playfield that didn’t have time enough for the clear to fully harden.

This is the real issue here. Not so much with the playfield manufacturer, rather JJP temporary workers line over tightening the posts etc too tight on a new and not fully cured playfield. Plus, when using thick clear-coat: full curing time needs to happen to allow PF to properly harden.

Every time the steel ball hits those posts, it rocks against the newly minted, not fully cured playfield and so begins the chipping, cracking and rippling. It wouldn’t matter which playfield manufacturer JJP were to use, they all would result in the same issues they have now, because of poor JJP manufacturing and over tightening of playfield items. Any playfield needs time to cure, before it is used in assembling and populating a pinball machine. It’s common sense 101.

Not seen this issue on any Stern owned by myself or friends. They have so many tables on the line, that proper curing time is given before playfield is populated and Stern experienced line workers don’t over tighten the posts etc. Cured thinner clear coats appear to be better than thicker in the science of a steel ball flying around a table at high velocities.

#149 56 days ago
Quoted from thePLAyNone:

My Batman 66 has chipping

Would like to see an uploaded photo of proof of that.

#175 56 days ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

Yea this isn’t over zealous tightening of posts.

Agreed, it’s a combination of all things considered.

-1
#177 56 days ago
Quoted from Goronic:

I guess I dodged a bullet because my hobbit play field is good. But I will not buy a nib from JJP or stern until they address with HOW they have corrected the issue and a commitment to customers it won't happen again. Until then HUO for me with close inspection or a game built more than 4 years ago.
This effects all of us that are buying new pins.

Have had zero issues with nearly a dozen NIB purchased Sterns. Not sure why you’re putting Stern in the same category as JJP? Purchased a NIB JJP with no issues as well, but that table had been in the box for months, so clear coat was fully dried/cured.

-1
#178 56 days ago
Quoted from Parzival:

So, it happens to all manufacturers?

No it doesn’t with Sterns from my experience, with all my purchases as NIB. People try to say all to think, oh well, doesn’t matter whose table purchased issues are the same, which simply is not true.

This thread is about JJP WW issues. People quit trying to drag other manufacturers into this thread discussion to attempt to lessen JJP’s play field troubles. It still remains POTC and Willy Wonka have major play field issues.

-1
#182 56 days ago
Quoted from Parzival:

Multiple posts on this page show Stern's having the same issues.
Your vast experience apparently didn't read a few posts up. Also, don't call pins tables

They have four legs don’t they? So do tables, lol. What is a pin? Something you use in sewing? Ask 10 people on the street what a pin is and they’ll tell you for sewing. Pinball as an answer will not come up. Lol You don’t call pool tables, just pool, right??? They are tables with four legs!

Stern’s being mentioned here is by JJP fanboys, to lessen the severity of the JJP chipping issues. Maybe long ago Stern had a few issues, but as f3honda4me said, no issues on current or recent.

#187 56 days ago
Quoted from Lamprey:

Does a soft neoprene washer actually prevent more damage or does it just cover it up?
Neoprene seems way to soft to do any good. But, maybe it does work?

Have purchased and successfully used from Pinball Life. There is a type of tiny flex action that helps when the steel ball hits posts. But green, thickly coated, uncured play fields are still going to be an issue no matter what you try.

#189 56 days ago
Quoted from RichieWrench:

I just finished modding out my POTC CE and Indont think I have any playfield issues...but I am going to check and I will check all my other JJP ones as well.
The only thing I noticed on my Dialed In CE was they left the freaking part numbers on the artwork for the playfield and the topper as well...Those should have been removed before they printed those.

Actually most all keep the number there for future part identification, when ordering new parts.

#192 56 days ago
Quoted from pcprogrammer:

Could you post a link to the ones you purchased from pinball life?

Sure thing: https://www.pinballlife.com/clear-petg-fender-washers.html

#199 56 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

No, it's not true that it doesn't happen to Sterns. GotG, Iron Maiden, and Beatles ALL have bunching of the clear, and Iron Maiden has chipping to the wood. The DIFFERENCE is Stern seems to rotate between 3 suppliers of playfields so the amount of playfields with the issue is MUCH less.
But yeah, Stern DEFINITELY has the issue if you're unlucky enough to get one of the "bad" playfield manufacters in their playfield russian roulette.

The main difference here is in the rare playfield issue with Stern, they replace the playfield no issues. JJP only sends out washer kit to hide the problem, not replace the playfield.

#209 55 days ago
Quoted from Vdrums:

I've only read the first 2 pages of comments so far, but the Corvette analogy is spot on. In my other hobby, high end audio, issues much smaller than anything I see in pinball would not be acceptable and manufacturers would have to address them. (however the resale value of pinball is outstanding vs. audio) I was thinking about a NIB machine but am definitely now on the sidelines. Has any other material than plywood ever been used for a playfield?

No reasons to stay on the sidelines. I’ve purchased many Stern machines without issue.

Changing from traditional plywood (used for nearly a century) to something else, would be like no longer using slate for pool tables.

#290 55 days ago
Quoted from Psw757:

Straight from the horses mouth(JJP) regarding getting a populated playfield.
Not even possible according to them. The replacement PF’s they are offering for the incredible offer of $550 plus shipping are suffering from the same issue as well.
Go check the POTC thread, several of us have been trying to negotiate a better offer for those with chipping for at least 3-4 months no with zero movement by JJP.
Really disappointing to say the least.

Why on earth would anyone in their right mind buy from JJP if this is the way they handle customers???

#292 55 days ago
Quoted from Psw757:

The chipping on POTC is widespread at the slings and outlane movable post holes(I lane and E lane for some).
Correct, discounted unpopulated PF was the official offer. $550 plus shipping so basically their cost. These should be free but I also offered $275 to split the cost risk with them and they balked at the idea.
It has been reported by a couple people that did accept the $550 offer that the new PF didn’t pass the scratch test and appears to be soft as well.

How many people suffer this kind of terrible service? Again, wondering why anyone would buy anything from JJP???

#294 55 days ago
Quoted from Psw757:

Don’t businesses that outsource work for components have some sort of insurance to guard against defective parts?
Just because they signed off on them when they accepted delivery with nothing installed doesn’t mean they weren’t defect free.

Why are people trying to pass the buck here? This is the responsibility of JJP period, not a third party. Our money is spent with JJP directly and they have the responsibility of a warranty. No one else does. JJP is the one that takes our unbelievably high price dollars of $7,500 to $12,500.00. Still can’t believe those outrageous prices!!!

#296 55 days ago
Quoted from Psw757:

Don’t businesses that outsource work for components have some sort of insurance to guard against defective parts?
Just because they signed off on them when they accepted delivery with nothing installed doesn’t mean they weren’t defect free.

Why are people trying to pass the buck here? This is the responsibility of JJP period, not a third party. Our money is spent with JJP directly and they have the responsibility of a warranty. No one else does. JJP is the one that takes our unbelievably high price dollars of $7,500 to $12,500.00. Still can’t believe those outrageous prices!!!

Worst part is, resale value will be toast as the word gets out on JJP pinball machines.

#301 55 days ago
Quoted from dashv:

Replying from another thread here because it’s more appropriate for this topic.

Yeah, I found and read this entire thread with my wife after talking to a couple distributors about Munsters (bought a new Premium with all the upgrades) and trying to place a pre-order for Wonka CE and the Red 75th Anniversary WoZ.
One distributor didn’t want to take a preorder for the JJP tables at all and strongly encouraged me to think twice about JJP tables in general due to basic, repeated, and systemic quality control problems he’s observed with their tables.
He told me about the major headaches he has had trying to support his buyers of NiB JJP tables and how JJP just leaves him and his folks hanging while they kick out yet another new table with the same old issues. One dealer didn’t deal with them at all due to problems they saw others having. Another would grudgingly accept my preorder (tables were listed on their site) but cautioned I should be patient and expect to need to do some work beyond what is normally expected for a NiB pin. Another dealer had been a fan and supplier until pirates and these other debacles made it hell for them to justify selling and supporting.
After hearing the same story from multiple places I looked up the WoZ and Wonka threads here on pinside and I’m blown away at the type and number of JJP Playfield problems.
WoZ played great. So great I was ready to buy it on impulse. Based on that and Wonka’s theme alone I was
Ready to pre-order a Wonka CE.
But I’m not comfortable paying an electric cars worth of money for two tables that may have playfield curing/art problems with less than 100 plays and no support.
2 out of 3 distributors I talked to said if I had playfield issues of this kind with a Stern first, they are much more rare. Second Stern will usually swap it out.
(I didn’t think to ask the first distributor I talked to.)
Heartbroken because WoZ was a fun play. From what I’m reading and even the distributors admit, Wonka is a good play too. Possibly JJPs best. Just don’t expect it to be finished (code) and don’t expect the playfields to last half as long as tables from back in the day, or a NiB Chicago Gaming, or NiB Stern at half the price.
Just the info I have gathered all second hand.
Take with a pinch of salt.
If ya’ll have info that particular runs of WoZ are free and clear (see what I did there). I’d love to know what to look for.
Wonka CE isn’t out yet so who knows what state that will ship in.
I have to assume based on their track record no material improvements/changes to build/finish quality.

When actual distributors are saying this, buyer beware! Stay clear of JJP!!

#306 55 days ago
Quoted from dashv:

Encouraging. I’m not trying to bag on JJP. Honestly painful to see all the issues.
Was blown away when 3 separate companies in the same day either said they were walking away or keeping back.
I know it sounds sketchy with me not naming names but I’m not because I don’t want JJP retaliating against these folks or holding back inventory. They still have a few die hard customers waiting on their pre-orders or open issues.
Ideally JJP should fix the underlying problems that lead to these situations. Maybe they are and it just takes time to see.
The dealers I’ve talked to simply do not have confidence these games will hold up.
I am encouraged by your own personal experience. If there was some way for me to know what made yours special and I could verify I got one made similarly I would happily pull the trigger.
WoZ was fun as hell to play. I wanted the upcoming Red 75th that still has the flying money. Wonka looks to be fun too.
I honestly want these games in my home. Just not with a playfield that’s never gonna cure.
Following this thread has given me a good understanding of why all this stuff may be happening.
I’m sticking around and commenting in hopes that JJP is watching and working on it. Also hoping to be here when we learn if/when the issues start clearing up or at least have found ways to identify affected playfields. Prior to purchase.

Not sure why you are thinking the issues are going to go away. JJP has not figured the issues out clearly for years now. Not sure why some report service is so good. My experience has not been that way at all. Lodging and sending numerous tickets, with no reply for months. Calling and only getting an answering machine or when someone does answer, the appropriate person is no where to be found or on the phone with someone else. Buyer beware is what comes to mind. There are games that are just as fun (or more so), without all the issues out there to buy.

Only JJP fanboys will downvote this comment of truth.

-4
#309 55 days ago
Quoted from romulusx:

Ignore this A hole big time JJP hater on a mission from Stern headquarters!

Is name calling really necessary? It puts you in such a low category in poor human behavior.

Lol, I shouldn’t give this the dignity of a reply, but you’re the Stern hater on a mission and are the one to be ignored. You hate the fact that I’m calling it like it is. Noticed you don’t have much to say in your normal defense of JJP and all these clear coat issues?

I don’t hate JJP and have purchased their machines. How does that make me a hater?
Yes, I’m concerned at the customer service and machine issues I’ve had like anyone would be. Again, how does that make me a hater?

True, my experience with Stern has been stellar. Any issue although very few, has been handled in a “pronto” fashion and without hesitation. They value me as a customer and I value them as a manufacture by giving them my hard earned money. Why is this hard for you to understand??? Stern stands behind their product and it just keeps getting better. Have you taken a good look at how well their machine cabinets have been made since the beginning of this year? Every bit as good as JJPs cabinets.

(All you JJP apologists, go ahead and put your heads in the sand about the playfield chipping issues and downvote my comments)

-5
#314 55 days ago
Quoted from DougPiranha:

The post kit for Pirates was a joke. I told my local pin friends, it's just going to bubble and peel in the new contact spot. I guess I had some hope it would spread the load but, in hindsight, I knew this problem was not going away.
I have yet to see a Pirates of WW that is not failing.
People who act like this is no big deal are either JJP moles, have lots of money to blow or really don't get it. I don't mind dimples and normal wear but, playfield art and clearcoat peeling and bubbling is BS.
I wish JJP would man up and say whats going on. I would be happy to pay $500 for a replacement if it actually was not a piece of junk like the one in the game!

On the money comment, but watch out the JJP moles will run you down for speaking the truth and call you names. Lol (They probably won’t now that I’ve called them out on it. Lol)

-2
#350 54 days ago
Quoted from rs812:

No response. Complete radio silence. He is quite frustrated as his gobstopper has not worked correctly since he received it. He told me he has called and emailed JJP for the past few weeks and zero response. At the end of last week, upon discovering the chipping, he gave up and enlisted the help of a distro. This is pretty sad as he is a huge JJP supporter and has all 5 of their pins. He’s so frustrated he’s talking about blowing them all out and switching to Sterns. He had an issue with his BM66 turntable and Stern was instantly all over it, way out of the warranty period.

Had the same experience with JJP as your friend. With Stern, they took care of me instantly, with no issues at all. They are there to service and stand behind their machines, even out of warranty has been my experience. Your friend would be wise to blow them out just like many of us have done. Too much money to be lost on current JJP machines in the resale market. Stern is the giant of the industry and still cannot understand why JJP and Stern are put even in the same discussion. Fanboys don’t like the truth. It seems JJP is now run totally by Pat and the investors. WW is a nice looking machine, but the big question is, for how long??? Future chipping with no chipping warranty backup, is not desirable. Paying $550 for a playfield resulting in the same issue, why?

#353 54 days ago
Quoted from Lermods:

Someone just posted a pic in one of the JP threads showing pooling of the clear around the slings.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/next-cornerstone-stern-game-will-be-summer-release/page/69#post-5159955

The huge difference is, Stern will stand behind it and not charge $550 for a in warranty period replacement with a playfield with the same issue, if it is needed.

#354 54 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

"Oh mighty Stern you can do no wrong, take my money sight unseen for I know you can never disappoint me". The Stern fanboy pledge and you sir are the new #1 lol. Give it a rest.

Yes, Pfreak buddy, repeat after me...(how did you know the pledge?) lol

-10
#357 54 days ago
Quoted from YZRider926:

Looks like he was just pointing out that it happens with other manufacturers too.

Again the difference is, Stern’s pooling is rare and they make 10 thousand plus tables a year, so that is saying something. Don’t think JJP has made that many total in all their nearly 10 year existence.

Not a fanboy of either company, just a fan of pinball and companies that stand behind their product. When a company does that, shouldn’t they get the recognition? At the prices we are paying, that is the least we can expect, right?

#359 54 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

I agree. JJP won't do anything as they can't afford the hit to send out populated playfields. I was hoping someone at JJP months ago would have told Micro to straighten this out. Something changed with the way playfields were being made between Dialed In and Pirates.

Now you’re finally making some sense and we actually agree. It has been since DI the real big PF issues have popped up. Only this is not just a Micro issue people are trying to pin this on. JJP manufacturing is also involved heavily in this issue. JJP is not giving enough drying time to these playfields in an attempt to deliver more quickly. I understand why they are doing it, but the Micro PFs should have been ordered and drying/curing 6 months ago and this issue would not be so widespread is my bet.

#363 54 days ago
Quoted from jorant:

I wanted to be a guy that would collect them all. Wanted to get all the JJP games.now I would only consider woz, hobbit and dialed in.

I also wanted to collect them all. I’m not just trying to be down on JJP. I think they’ve done good things for the industry and made Stern much better as a result. They make some fun games, with great code.

-7
#424 54 days ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

This is interesting. The best way is expensive and volatile.
http://www.pinrepair.com/clear/
Automotive Clear Coats.
The more I thought about clear coats, the more it seemed logical to try the automotive clear coats. These are far more complex clears than bought at any hardware store. They are also a lot more expensive, and were more complicated to apply. But the automotive clears were the same type of products today's pinball manufacturers were using on their new playfields. These products are far more durable than any other type of clear coating.
Automotive Clear Advantages and Disadvantages.
The advantages to automotive clear coats includes:
Dry time of 1 to 5 hours. Fully cured in 48 to 72 hours, after which the game can be immediately reassembled and played.
Incredible hardness and durability. After fully curing, can not be removed with any thinner.
High solids (fewer coats needed).
Low solvents. The two-part urethane system dries because of the chemical reaction of the two parts, and does not depend on the evaporation of solvents.
The disadvantages to automotive clear coats includes:
Extremely volatile when being applied. Can not be applied in-doors!!! Safety precautions MUST be taken!
Expensive. Really expensive compared to Varathane.
A two or three part system (a required activator/hardener is added to the clear, and sometimes a reducer too).
Can not be removed once applied (there's no going back).
Not available in spray cans. Must be brushed on, or applied with expensive spray and ventilation equipment.

The major issue here is chemical off gassing from VOCs in the home. Big danger to us and our families, so the use of safe clear coats by all pinball companies is vital. Water based clear coats without harmful VOCs being used is ever needful. We don’t want automotive products as they are very dangerous closed up in our homes. They contain major carcinogens and must not be used in pinball products or the realization of these ever apparent VOCs will cost us in the future in the way of good health.

Indoor pollution is real and must be avoided. All pinball manufacturers must be responsible here to protect us and our families from dangerous off gassing VOCs in our homes. No product containing harmful VOCs of any level is acceptable. Even low VOCs is simply not acceptable either. They still have off gassing for years and create harmful pollution in our homes. This makes clear coats difficult to deal with I realize, but there are safe solutions in the green VOC-less community. It just takes a good 6 months drying time. Use of playfield protectors would avoid most all these problems. I install PF protectors on all my machines and never see these problems now.

-1
#428 54 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

The only problem is playfield protectors suck. No thank you.
And MASSIVELY more harmful chemicals were used in 1950-late 1990 playfields with no ill-effects reported as a result that I'm aware of, and much better durability.

Many countries in Europe have outlawed these dangerous chemicals. Few ill effects not reported only because people had no idea, just like asbestos they had no idea, till it was too late and had to be removed all over the world. VOCs are the next asbestos. Just ask paint companies about all the lawsuits they are facing with VOC harmful ingredients. Just because you’re unaware, doesn't mean it doesn’t exist.

Yes, those old machines contained many harmful off gassing materials. Just go up and take a deep breath with your head down in one of those tables and with clear sinuses you’ll instantly understand.

-1
#446 54 days ago
Quoted from Zitt:

The result was middle layers of clear not being fully cured:
[quoted image]
Eventually; it did cure...months after assembly.

This is exactly what I’ve been talking about. Thick clear coat take months to cure. If JJP were to order the PFs at least 6 months prior to assembly, my bet is the issues we are currently facing, would not be happening. GNR PFs should be ordered now and completed asap, to allow curing time before assembly of the first machine next year, as they are planning. Chipping will most like not be an issue then. JJP fanboys have been denigrating what has been said about this issue, to downplay and place blame on Mirco. It is typical poor planning on the part of JJP and they are solely responsible for their product quality. If a 3rd party is not up to snuff, JJP should switch. They are in control, no one else. Buyer beware, buying a product with so many known issues.

#470 54 days ago
Quoted from cooked71:

And you know all this how?

Simple...chemistry.

-8
#473 54 days ago

Look at all the table chipping photos above. Chips/pooling is at the base of the old Bally/Williams star posts, which JJP uses exclusively (Stern has used them in the past, I know). Unless someone has an example, haven’t seen that issue with Sterns newer regular thinner posts, that don’t have such a large foot print that constantly torques on the surface of the playfield, as the heavy steel ball hits the post with high velocity.

The large surface foot print contact area of the Bally/Williams star posts might also have something to do with these problems than we might suspect? Every time those slings are hit, the large star post begins slight rocking/torquing on the playfield surface. Do it enough times and you’ll break the coating of nearly any table with brittle uncured clear coat.

#476 54 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

The Iron Maiden picture with pooling that became a chip that I just posted was a "new" Stern. The narrow posts also have minor pooling. It's a Stern problem, too. The posts aren't the problem, the clear and ink adhesion are.

Agreed that the clear and ink adhesion issue is where the problem lies. Just thinking the star posts might add to this issue. Car manufactures have a paint clear coat adhesion problem when the clear coat batch is not properly mixed with the right chemicals. Chipping happens there too, but they replace or reshoot the car with new paint, few questions asked. They usually issue a recall.

#479 54 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

Nope. Pooling and chipping is happening to any post size I've seen on Stern and JJP jjPotC/Wonka. Just not all the Stern PF runs have the issue because likely Stern is still using multiple suppliers.

Makes sense it happens to any size, just think the larger footprint might present the bigger issue here. I’ve seen it on my machines with the star posts, but never the smaller thinner posts to date. Although earlier JJP machines with star posts no chipping issue for me.

JJP fix with populated new PF, is the only solution here to consider, unless full refund issued.

#488 53 days ago
Quoted from russdx:

looking at those photos that is definitely a paint not sticking to the wood issue, The clear is probably the only thing keeping it in place! Must be using a different ink / wood or something has changed that does not allow the two to bind correctly?

The more I look at this issue, the more i’m convinced that the ink/art playfield/clear coat is not properly binding. Unless someone shows me differently, Munsters has no issues here since they did not let the artwork interfere with the slings for example. No ink/artwork/clear coat adhesion issue in the typical troubled sling area, as WW and POTC demonstrate. Sling posts on Munsters have no artwork/ink directly below the posts.

2A61F3D5-AA9E-4A8E-8802-1CBB4B5AA9A9 (resized).jpeg
-31
#591 53 days ago

Have done more research on this and found that JJP/Mirco is using water based clear instead of two pack polyurethane because of the environmental impact of the fumes pollution in our homes. Actually if this is the case, my opinion has turned 180 degrees. JJP/Mirco should be applauded for not using the very dangerous two pack polyurethane that many countries have now outlawed because of it off gassing in our homes and being very carcinogenic and super dangerous to us and our families health. I’d rather live with some chipping than having health problems.

Still think, giving 6 months or at least longer curing time is the answer and not printing artwork under the high impact areas, like Stern has done on Munsters, GOTG, etc., in the sling areas and such. No print clear coat adhesion issues there. If JJP were to come out and say this is the reason, who could be upset with them??? Except, JJP not giving enough curing time before assembly. Or over tightening mechs/posts. Or using too thick of a layer of clear coat. JJP should use this as a marketing coo instead of all the negative press they are getting now.

#640 52 days ago
Quoted from RichieWrench:

This some serious shit here....Were not talking about petty items like powder coating or how they left part numbers on the Art or a Topper that makes the loudest noise and when u hear it it's like WTF.
We are talking about a clear defect that your normal person would not be able to switch out a board. And on top of that your paying JJP their cost on the playfield. Where is rhe lesson learned? Where is the customer that is upset and has to try to find a way settle and is still not happy.
No...No...No.....NOOOOOO!!!!!!!
I got two more calls to make tonight (Not to Joe) and little more research.
Remember Now...Filing a claim with the card company only really does hurt the distributor and tir up their funds for a game that is already delivered....Does not hurt JJP or Stern or whomever ....It s the distributors that are dragged in....and maybe they should, As they also need to stand behind the buyer.
This is some serious shit...I thought this was a joke or taken way overboard.
No...this is for real.
And just because my game is not chipped., does not mean that this does not affect me. What is chips later or what if my Wonka CE comes in and chips 3 months from now. Do I bitch or complain then? No....It is already an issue now because it is happening to those around us NOW!!!!
so....
IT AFFECTS US ALL NOW!!!

You’re right it does indeed affect us all, so my question to you is why aren’t you cancelling your WWCE? At least until JJP owns up to this mess and takes care of all the people that have PF problems. Meaning replacing their PF with a populated PF at no additional cost. JJP as a responsible company has to stand behind their product. Which up till now, they haven’t learned a thing, because their solution is a .75 cent washer kit. Or you pay for an unpopulated PF to the tune of $550.00! They are getting away with treating the consumer very poorly. Why would anyone want to buy any shiny new thing from that kind of company? Remember you could be next.

This is sad that people paying $7.5k to 12.5k get treated this way. Everyone needs to band together and stop buying from them, till they make good on all the current PF problems. Guaranteed that will get results or JJP will be out of business.

#656 51 days ago
Quoted from RichieWrench:

I posted on my page that I started for the Collector Editions for Willy Wonka first
I AM OUT ON MY WILLY WONKA CE #12
For those of you that are wanting the #12 - I guess it will be available. I am taking a stance on this issue with the chipping playfields that or showing up on the POTC and now Willy Wonka (there might even be other as well). I have not had a chance to see the CE playfield and it might be amazing and all - But even if it is -- I am still out on my preorder.
I know we all have had fun with me being the #12 on the CE models and powder coating on the coin doors and me picking on Joe @ 3 AM and all. I am taking a stand on this issue on the chipping playfields. I understand that this has not happen to me and my games are fine and in good shape - But I have a serious problem with how this is all being handled.
So - Let me first say that I love Joe @ Pinstar and I would never do anything that would hurt him - He is a riot and puts up with my shit. He is my friend.
We got these chipping issues showing up on some of the Willy Wonka playfields and I am concern about how it is being handled by JJP with NO clear solution that is making the customer happy. I think a fair solution is a populated playfield. But that is not happening - Just giving out some washers does not fix the problem. Really the problem needs to be fixed back to the source and get this done before it blows up out of control. But, till it does - Any customer that is having a issue with chipping playfield needs to be taken care of and it needs to be done the right way.
We spend 12,500 for these games - A chipping playfied would make me PIST - I would take off work and drive that game down to the JJP factory and drop it off myself if that happened to me. But this is not about those that are paying more for a CE model. For me, I am lucky that I can do this - But I work extra long hours on weekends and nights to help pay for my hobby and boxing art collection. So, I am not different than those of you out there working from paycheck to paycheck. I work very long hours and put alot of time and passion in my plumbing company. So this is the same with Pinball - I have alot of passion for pinball and to see those around me not getting a fair solution and still upset about what is going on and having to just settle with what is going on with their game, or having to pay out $550.00 for a playfield that they should not even have to pay one penny for in my opinion.
Sorry - I can not do this and stand by and not take a stand - So Again,
I am out - WWCF Collectors Edition #12
JJP needs to do the right thing - I am not picking on any certain person @ JJP. But I am saying that JJP as a whole and as a company needs to do the right thing and till they do - I AM OUT. I am out on all games unless I work something out with Joe. I will still do business with Joe and I am hoping that this will be taken care of and if it does and I do not get #12 because I let it go - So be it. I will maybe get another number - Trust me @ 500 CE Models and with all this shit going on right now - They will be available. Heck, #1 might be available if this does not get taken care of soon.
I am not asking for a boycott - I am not trying to hurt anyone. I am just taking a stance and for me and I hope others will do the same to hopefully show JJP that we are all willing to give something up to do what it right.
JJP is a great company - But here as of late, they are not acting like one. They are making a big mistake. I am just one person, But I am my own person and I remember JJP from the early days and all I got to say is that if they will not take care of those having issues now - Who is to say that they will take care of me later. I dont care if a game cost $5,000 or $16,000.00 - The company that makes those games need to take care of the customers.
I hope this gets better soon, but till then - I AM OUT on WWCF CE #12 - I have sent my notice to Joe, but I am not asking for refund - I bought Mafia from Joe a couple months ago and might get something else and if not, I am hoping that this gets resolved and i will used it then towards a game.
Thanks to all and we do need to stand together.

You sir are an outstanding individual and I applaud and stand beside you. At one time I was going to collect every JJP game like yourself, but now just sticking with Stern, as they back up any and every thing I’ve ever asked of them. I really wanted WW and Toy Story CE, but will be out on it, if this does not get handled. I’m not sure it is going to be handled in the correct manner. The new owners are not demonstrating that they run that kind of business.

If I was in your part of the country, you’d get all my plumbing business! I agree, when Richie is out on getting a number 12, this is serious. I agree, with MK, JJP has been making a statement on the serious PF issues for quite sometime. Nothing has been resolved, with all the issues from POTC and now WW. They’ve made a statement. Pay $550.00 for an unpopulated play field and do the major mechanical change over that almost no one is qualified to do or live with it or get out. Pretty clear statement already made.

11
#657 51 days ago
Quoted from mtp78:

Everyone needs to calm down. Problem is being handled and they will eventually make a statement. I support JJP and will buy a wonka.

Said the captain of the Titanic...

#684 51 days ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Seriously? There’s a waiting list for Wonka CE’s? No one even knows what the CE is yet. Hard to believe, but then again nothing surprises me in this hobby.

Pretty sure he’s joking. Over 500 waiting list on a $12,500.00 unseen machine. Don’t think so. Even seen they’d never sell 500 or so called laugh a minute LE number of 5000. Unreal.

What’s so funny is we don’t have to make up this stuff, JJP supplies us with it!

#687 51 days ago
Quoted from pingod:

I told JJP the same thing a few weeks ago.
I will not buy Wonka or anything else until they fix their playfield issues.
They have known about my chipping from the beginning.
Of course I was offered the post fix, which doesn't cover the damage on my POTC LE.
I wasn't even offered the playfield until I asked about it.
Then offered the same deal of 550.00 plus international shipping charges.
Horse shit I think, these games cost close to 14,000.00 CAD. here.
I really don't think the customer should have to pony up for the playfield either.
Still waiting on my reply to the last email, my reply is going up the ladder supposedly.
It has been a long time on this one issue already.
Step up JJP

Their ladder is short, with not many working there to escalate toward, so think you’ve got an answer already, which is so sad what they’re doing to you.

#688 51 days ago

JJP back room “coming up with a fix” conversation: “Really hoping there are enough suckers out there that don’t read pinside or don’t realize the pooling and chipping all over their PF is not normal.” Lol

-1
#693 51 days ago
Quoted from russdx:

I can't believe they just send out a new pf who is gonna be able to fit that? a pf swap is an insane amount of work. Plus You need all the tools and spare time to do it. Are these pf partly populated? ie have all the t-nuts installed etc...
I can't see many people taking that offer up unless they have previous experience.

At only $550, you can be sure that is only the wood PF, nothing else. Had a friend that received one and it is only the wood printed clear coated PF. $550 for the main part of the machine. $12,500.00 for a CE. There’s a little markup in there. I realize, some $5 to $50 mechs as well as few hundred dollars worth of screen, computer, cabinet and license. Always thought the large markup was to be able to take care of issues like this? Amazing Stern can make a pro for basically $7k less.

11
#710 51 days ago
Quoted from jeffro01:

And I thought I over-reacted over things... By all means, make a Mt Everest out of ant hill if you must but it's pretty comical and hysterical to see someone freak out over something that hasn't affected them. Yes yes everyone, flame me if you want but I can only go on what has actually affected me and I have absolutely zero reason to even question JJP or think that my WONKA CE will be anything less than absolute perfection. Now if the CE turns out to be an LE with a different color and some glitter than I'm out anyways simply over the absurd delay we've been experiencing...
I'm not saying any of this is okay or acceptable, I've been very clear on that. But, it hasn't happened to me so to me it's inappropriate and ridiculous to speculate on what would happen or what has happened to others based on what they chose to share in an online forum... Grab your pitch forks if you require, if it makes you feel better or whatever, but not me...
Jeff

Gladly flame someone that is so not caring about how others are being affected here by JJP. Yes, I now you’re one of the big JJP fanboys and if you’re okay, then why does anyone else complain? Wait buddy, your turn is coming from JJP...only an ostrich with his head in the sand, thinks WWCE will be absolute perfection or are you a JJP stockholder, not willing to see?

You sir are the type of person that really makes this world nasty, with zero compassion or care about your neighbor. They haven’t come yet for me yet...what are all these other people complaining about anyway? I’m not affected. Can you be anymore heartless and not caring??? Don’t think I’ve seen on pinside many others; in regards to a lack of care of other people suffering, after spending their hard earned money on a bag of hurt, than from you! Richie is the opposite of your type. I’m sure you think homeless people deserve it and would never donate to help them. Doesn’t affect you right?

#734 51 days ago
Quoted from Cgpinhead:

My POTC CE has a ton of plays....no problems at all. Please remember that the vast majority of owners have not had problems. The ones that do, post about it. I own every JJP game and can attest to the fact that they all have perfect playfields and no issues whatsoever. I also believe that most people (other than the ones sending photos on here) have had no problems either. I just think that the manufacturers need to speak up about this problem as gambling thousands of dollars is not a fun thing to do.

From all the posts here on pinside about POTC PF issues, I don’t believe your assertion for one second that vast majority have not had problems. Don’t know one owner, except you (I too would like to see under your PF washers) that hasn’t had issues.

(Is this one of the new JJP owners under the name of CGPinhead writing this baloney???)

Another non caring, “I don’t have any issues, so why are you complaining, as it does’t affect me...”. If it happened to one owner at $12,500.00 they have a right to having their money back or a repopulated new playfield. You’re okay with just some having issues, as long as it’s not you. What a shill for JJP.

#737 51 days ago
Quoted from Cgpinhead:

I don’t need to address your conspiracy theories, but let’s say JJP sold 1000 machines. Let’s also say that 50 have this issue...that is a .05% deficiency rate. In manufacturing that’s not a terrible number.
The reason I am suggesting a count is that facts and numbers give much more accurate information.

Trying to blow off my comments by calling them conspiracy??? Pretty low my friend, pretty low.

Unless you can count all the affected people that are not on pinside what does it matter? If just one automobile has a paint issue, any auto maker stands behind it with a repainted car or your money back period. There is no tolerance at JJP prices to say only a few is okay. That is not the case with POTC and WW, even though as a fanboy, you’re trying hard to defend a sinking ship.

#741 51 days ago

If I take your calloused attitude toward those that have PF issues, I have happiness. My JJP machines don’t have any serious PF issues, (even though I’ve had plenty mechanical issues). Hoods been up almost as much as down at times fixing issues. No I didn’t pester my poor distributor over them either, just fixed them myself. But have a hard time seeing all my friends and people here with so many JJP issues suffering.

#745 51 days ago
Quoted from Procrastinator:

My POTC has one post with a half circle of bubbling, but otherwise good. My wonka has 3-4 of the sling posts bubbled, which obviously is unacceptable. It’s definitely worse on some more than others.
I gotta say though, jimwe5t using holocaust references is pathetic and disgusting. It’s par for the course to see him running to every thread to make sure everyone knows what a rage boner he has for JJP...but when the outright lies and exaggerations aren’t enough, he drops the holocaust comparison. How pathetic.
It’s the same thing when stern has a problem, some insane JJP defenders go and troll their thread and vice versa. Truthfully, both extremes are clearly crazy, But luckily there’s a lot of levelheaded commentary with good info to be gleaned from. Hopefully the one good thing that comes from all this is that manufacturers across the board realize this is a problem, and go back to making the quality product we all expect. Everyone of them has done it right in the past, so there’s no reason to believe they can’t get it back that way moving forward.

I’ve avoided making any comment to your constant nonsense and sexual harassment till now. Your constant bullying and filthy mouth and trying to bring holocaust reference to this is what is low. I’ve purchased JJP machines, so I’m not a hater like you constantly suggest. Name the lies pal?

#748 51 days ago
Quoted from Procrastinator:

Dude, look at your post history...Literally 95% of them trashing JJP. For someone that doesn’t like them you sure spend a lot of time posting about them. Never mind the holocaust comparisons, but claiming people are creating accounts to come defend their manufacturer of choice? Haha project much? Honestly, I feel bad for guys like you....literally nothing better to do than post endless screeds attacking a business. It’s pathetic when people do it to stern, and pathetic when people do it to JJP. Oof, I couldn’t imagine such a sad existence. Best of luck on your mission to set the pinball world straight.

Here you go again attempting to bully and attacking me when ever you come here to post. You’re the pathetic one and it never stops from you. I hope you find happiness in your very poor treatment toward me. Is this the only way you can defend JJP’s poor business practices toward us their customers? Constantly attacking a customer that is asking for JJP to take care of us buyers?

-1
#751 51 days ago
Quoted from jeffro01:

Oh would you give it a rest... Literally all you do here is shit on JJP. Just like I asked you in the other thread, where on the doll did JJP touch you..??? The act is old and tired and for the love of... Give it a rest... Oh and avoid holocaust references as well... Pathetic someone has to actually tell you that...
Jeff

You and your holocaust reference is the only thing you have to point to. I did not say anything about the holocaust. You and your nasty attacks again about dolls, very low. You JJP fanboys don’t have any other way to defend except attack posters personally do you.

#753 51 days ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

If the number of affected PF’s is so small then why is JJP not quietly taking care of those with the PF clear issue. And why radio silence on a very small number of defects. Why? Because I believe the number is large. JJP’s behavior and lack of action speaks volumes. They thought this was just like the dimpling scenario and they would get away with this. And now people are canceling orders. All over a few people with PF issues? I think not.

Your comment is right on the money. I too believe they are staying silent because if they didn’t pandora’s box would open and they don’t want that, because the numbers affected are too large.

-3
#759 51 days ago
Quoted from Procrastinator:

Just in case you forgot. I’m sure it’s difficult to remember when you’re in the middle of an 18 day rant on pinside. You can get back to it now, Don’t want to take you away from your rage crusade....

You never let up on personally attacking do you. Only way to defend is personally attack your opponent they say in politics, because you don’t like the truth being told. Seems you’re the one filled with rage. I’m only upset that we spend all this hard earned money on toys and receive no reasonable warranty support. Is that too much to ask? You perceive that as rage??? Pathetic.

-2
#763 51 days ago
Quoted from Procrastinator:

Post a picture of your JJP’s, I don’t believe for second you own one. For someone who has so much disdain for them how could you ever own their product? It absolutely defies logic that you are an owner when you said before they would be closed by 2020? What sense would that make?

I never once said they’d be closed by 2020. You are attacking and making things up again. No you’re not baiting me into showing personal photos of my home collection, just so you can bully and attack me more.

I like JJP and hope they stay in business. They have brought to us some good games with wholesome themes. I think the industry is much better with them in the picture. I said earlier I applaud them for going to water based clear coat and away from the dangerous and toxic VOC’s used in the past. These VOC’s are constantly off gassing in our homes. I much prefer machines with nontoxic clear coat rather than toxic cocktails of the past. But a remedy to fix all the people affected must be found to keep their big price toys looking good and still have reasonable resale value.

Now, I’ve given a very unkind poster like yourself, much more information or comments than I should have. Hope you can actually see the truth and quite trying to defend poor business decisions by the new owners of JJP. Old JJP would have not have let it get to this point.

#765 51 days ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

He has no Games listed in his collection
Maybe he owns the flyers

I actually thought this was funny. Lol

#973 48 days ago
Quoted from newpinbin:

It's been a week, 3 phone calls (voice mail left) and NO ONE from JJP has called me back to discuss the playfield issue!!!
I am will NOT be buying anything from JJP ever!!! Your customer service is horrible!!!

Sad to say, but this is typical from them. Experienced the same thing. They don’t want to talk to anyone (apparently unless your name is Richie), especially if you have a playfield issue. It is amazing to me that when Kaneda asked Jack directly about all the PF issues, all he said is, “I’m in Europe, service is spotty and won’t be back till September 8th”. That was his answer when asked about PF issues. Funny, it was good enough service to give that answer, but not answer the question. Kaneda said his answer was not acceptable.

Meanwhile Stern’s Zach Sharpe gave their answer that there is no widespread PF issues at Stern like other manufacture. They will back up the customer. That has been my experience with them, they take care of their customer issues.

#978 48 days ago
Quoted from jeffro01:

That's simply not true. I've never had an issue getting ahold of JJP support. Ever. Seriously, what is your issue with this company and why do you come here and constantly bash them??? I mean seriously, enough is enough...
Jeff

Telling the truth of experience is not bashing. Just agreeing with another person that had same issue of trying to contact JJP. If you’ve had another experience with JJP, that’s fine to report it, but stop personally attacking me. You’re violating forum rules, I’ve been told.

#979 48 days ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Telling the truth of experience is not bashing. I simply added my experience to the other person that said they could not get in touch with JJP. If you have a different experience, fine.

#1176 47 days ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Just ignore norcalrealtor guys. Operators and comp/location players have always been unable to see the collector point of view when it comes to QC issues on these NIB games.

You said it right cooked71 This guy doesn’t get a collector’s POV and should be ignored.

It is unfortunate that such a good game as POTC is plagued with PF issues to the point that us collectors don’t want to buy it. If that were not the case, I’d have one.

#1178 47 days ago
Quoted from clg:

FYI Ballypinball is a JJP distributor

You’re kidding me???? This guy that keeps spouting his mouth off like he is the spokesperson for JJP worldwide is only a distributor? Doesn’t that make all his objectivity quite suspect?

If so, why would anyone in your country buy from him? It seems he has little to no empathy for any customers and is a JJP sycophant from the word go. Why buy from a distributor that does not have your back, which appears obvious by all his comments?????

While one of our distributors posting in this forum here in the US, understands why us collectors are so concerned about this issue. Hemispheres Amusements said in this thread: “I will say that don't think for a second a good distributor doesn't raise holy hell with the manufacturers on major issues like this. We absolutely do.”

Now that is the type of distributor I give my business to.

#1251 46 days ago

I respect Charlie and Spooky games trying hard to build a company. They are doing things better and back up their customers. Only thing is, not good if the person from UK had to pay $1k to get his game right. Should have been paid by the company under warranty.

#1260 46 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

So, does that mean if JJP agrees to send out a few dozen unpopulated replacement playfields and their PF problem is fixed for their machines moving forward, they're off the hook, too? Because there seems to be a double standard about acceptable remediation to this issue.
I see lots of demands for populated replacements of JJP or they're money-grubbing bastards. So in light of this post, are you saying that what Spooky did would be an acceptable solution from JJP?

For sure, if they give a newly populated playfield that fixes the issues, at no additional cost, then all good (very few have the tools and the ability to repopulate a playfield). My respect for them would return. I like what JJP’s original mission was, to make machines for the collectors, they may enjoy in their homes. I would be back in and buy all their machines, if I knew service would back up any and all issues.

All manufactures should give us collectors pristine machines to begin with that will hold up over time. At these prices nothing less should be expected, quality control should be job number one. On route machines are quite different imo, although what company wouldn’t want their on location games to look good? Collectors want to buy a machine with confidence that any legitimate warranty claim will be backed up by the company they purchase from.

None of us, would spend this kind of money, if we didn’t know that we could get back much if not most of our money, should we decide to on-sell the game. 2nd hand buyers are also collectors too and if they see a beat up or chipped playfield, they will beat you up over the resale price.

These games are Americana artwork and should look the part.

-1
#1267 46 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

But that's not what Spooky did. They sent out unpopulated playfields to about 15% of the people in that lot of 300 machines, and washers to many (all?) of the others. You accepted that as "good job, Charlie!" but are now applying a completely different standard of fully populated replacements from JJP or nothing. So, why the disconnect?
What I'm asking is if JJP did the SAME THING to resolve the issue that you thought was great when Spooky did it, why isn't that enough?

Whoops, I guess I misunderstood what Spooky did. I thought the gentleman from England received a fully populated PF? Stern sends fully populated PF at no additional cost to make the consumer whole. This is the only remedy that would be satisfactory, imo, at the prices being charged. You wouldn’t put up with a car with an attachment bolted on to hide the poor paint job would you (that’s what a washer fix does, only it pushes the issue out and beyond the washer)?

#1268 46 days ago
Quoted from romulusx:

Dude your wasting your time with this chump!

Name calling again???

#1302 45 days ago
Quoted from MK6PIN:

Demand didn't show until they announced they weren't making it anymore ( you even mention it in your post)...Everybody wants what they can't have. After a 2 year wait, no one really cared anymore. Not the thread for all of that, but if the demand was so over the top, it would still be running....Business 101....
And I stopped reading the repair thread after a few thousand posts, including the part where the defective play fields ( face it, in the hundreds). Maybe they do ship corrected populated play fields to regain the credibility, excitement that was genuinely earned/deserved w WOZ....who knows...situation is bad, and anyone denying it...well, is in denial.

Agree with you. The real reason it was stopped is because of all the issues it had, not just PF. If they didn’t have those issues it seems, WW might have been the machine delayed. Any business with a hot product, will continue making it. It is a great design and well coded. Just not good in the way of quality, with lots of mechanical PF issues. Continuing to sell the machine, would have been a greater drain on the company with all the warranty issues. There are those that got the luck of the draw with little to no issues. Wanted to buy the machine, but with all the issues, didn’t think it was wise, given the lack of good support etc.

#1305 45 days ago
Quoted from N80G80:

Don’t worry fellas every Wonka LE comes with this piece of paper in the top now![quoted image]

This is legal-ease trying to exempt the company of poor workmanship at the factory and sub-quality playfields. Don’t think this is good for the industry, no matter the company putting in this type of letter of excuses at these high prices. If an automobile came with this disclaimer at $12,500.00 how many people would be fine with it and purchase the car or high end appliance? This is not good for the industry, because everything and anything is passable with this letter of excuses for poor quality. The investors are trying to exempt themselves from liability. I for one will not purchase any high priced toy with this kind of warranty exemption. The 2nd hand market will not be kind to those that buy NIB and try to sell later, a high priced toy that looks like trash.

#1309 45 days ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Trolling, right? This looks word for word what Stern put in the manuals around 2017.

If Stern is doing this too, then I’m disappointed in them. However, it seems they do replace populated PF under warranty at no cost. If any company attempts to rely on that type of BS saying it’s a one of a kind product, with ghosting and chipping being part of the machine, then that might be the end of any company applying this ill-gotten philosophy.

#1312 45 days ago
Quoted from zaphX:

And that was pretty much how Pinside reacted in 2017 to this. And yet here we are and Stern is still thriving

Thanks for showing this. It is upsetting that this industry is trying to get away with poor quality under the guise of being unique. These toys are too expensive to not to continue to look good, even after playing thousands of games. The only hope is, I’ve seen Stern replace my friends ghosting or chipping PF to this point. If they ever change that stance, I will no longer support them and will either stop buying all together or buy only at steeply discounted prices from the second hand market. 2nd hand buyers will be the only winners, if this becomes the norm, imo.

#1369 45 days ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

C'mon... is it really fair to NOT act like this is a wide spread conspiracy? See what I did there? I made you feel like my perception has more validity than yours (which it doesn't nor does yours). I honestly don't know exactly just how wide spread this is but it does indeed exist. Common sense tells me if it wasn't wide spread these companies would gladly pony up a new PF. Thus far that has not been the case which leads me to believe it's more widespread than what you're thinking. I'm seriously happy you havent had issues, but how about showing some sympathy and empathy for those who are affected? It costs nothing to be nice.

For some people being nice, even though they might not agree, is impossible for them. They are just nasty types and probably going around yelling at their families and kicking their dogs just for the heck it.

-1
#1370 45 days ago
Quoted from MK6PIN:

All good. That's encouraging to hear on the JJP front. I'm definitely not a JJP basher, quite the opposite, nor a Stern fanboy. Just love pinball.
Probably why this whole thing bothers me so much.

Don’t believe what procrastinator has to say. He’s a true fanboy and will say most anything to support his idol, JJP. Haven’t ever heard this from anyone else, so I question procrastinator greatly.

#1456 45 days ago
Quoted from dashv:

Just listened to it.
Honestly, he just confirmed that a Wonka is not for me. I keep turning this into a huge post justifying why and then deleting all of it.
Darn it, here I go...
I’m not a JJP hater. I just can’t buy a product that they don’t know what the problem is. Can’t say when or if it will be fixed. Do say they will stand by it “like they always do.” While at least a dozen on this thread have said JJP left them out to dry on this or other tables.
Once my Munsters Premium arrives (which I am terrified will have pooling) I am done with NiB until I read this stuff is sorted.
I keep following hoping for a resolution.
Glad I read about the person who installed a new post on their months old table and got new pooling. That sucks.
Until reading that was thinking about buying those soft washers to handle any pooling I encountered.
Seems like let it be and pray for good support if it chips. Or be ready to patch it up with superglue. Anyone got a good tutorial (video?).

JJP/Jack’s canned response is suppose to address all of the concern expressed here??? Very poor and typical JJP response: “we really don’t care; read between the lines”; “if you think (unbelievable) you have a problem, call me so I can tell you that you really don’t and that pooling/chipping all over your PF is a unique characteristic of JJP one of a kind art”. We work hard to make it look that way.

In-other-words, JJP has no plan or real remedy and will not take care of buyers, because they are loading each box with the exemption of liability letter. The letter that really says, “Caveat Emptor” or “Buyer Beware”!!! You’ve just purchased a predetermined faulty product, which is one of a kind. We have no solution and your now stuck!!! But hey, just enjoy your unique one of a kind $12,500.00 pile of soon to be junk that no one on the secondary market will ever want!

#1462 44 days ago
Quoted from swinks:

I have been trying to think of a band aid fix to avoid an increase in pooling by using a larger rubber washer or wider washer under the post.
I wonder how a wider 3d printed washer that tapers to the diameter to match a smaller slim post (9.5mm dia) but goes wider but tapers away from the playfield to still supports a star post but not touch the playfield. A steel washer could do the same but the star post may fracture if not supported.
In having a taper it could possibly hide the pooling and scarring on the playfield for the moment.
I know JJP does not want anyone to play with their playfields even though no solution is in sight, and really the clear on the playfield is crap all over if you are getting pooling around posts.
I put the file up on Shapeways and once you are a Shapeways member you should be able to download the STL and print yourself (let me know if not visible), or send me a pm with your email address and I will send it to you and you can then on share it, print and test. I don't want to earn any money out of this but it could be an idea to help people out for the interim. I stress I do not want to earn a single cent from this but Shapeways has their price on the part to manufacture and cover labourt but I have zero commission on this design but please download or get the file off me if you want to test this concept.
[quoted image][quoted image]

So nice of you to share and come up with something. No one else has a solution, not even JJP. Have you tried it on any table? What are the results?

#1465 44 days ago
Quoted from swinks:

no I only just designed it and uploaded for people to try. I am a mech engineer so I can't help looking at a problem and coming up with a possible short term solution. I don't have a recent game with any pooling issues so basing it on a theory and gut thoughts.

Looks quite good and the only thing positive I’ve seen in this is whole thread or anywhere on a possible help. So we go to Shapeways? Do you have a link where we can obtain the file or order the part?

#1558 44 days ago

Just listened to Kaneda’s podcast and it says it all. Applaud him for calling PF issues the way they really are with any company using poor clearcoat. As he has stated, there is a difference between rental mentality of an operator that doesn’t really care about beat up PF’s or the patron that puts a few dollars in to play on location. Patrons don’t mind if the PF is beat up, they don’t own it. Then there is us the new customer to the pinball world, the collector, we care immensely. This is what the old school people don’t understand or want to get. They think, just play pinball and have fun! Who really cares what your collection looks like at the end of the day, just have fun.

Here is his excellent podcast on the subject: https://soundcloud.com/kanedapinball/episode-392-warranty-plagiarism

Those of us buying for our homes at these prices, don’t have fun seeing the small fortune we’ve spent become trashed up. That is the difference between those that understand this issue and those that don’t. I don’t like Stern’s policy statement either, which JJP plagiarized. If Stern ever stops replacing populated PF’s for those of us having issues, I will be done even buying their machines as well. Right now, Stern, CGC and Spooky are the only ones I trust will do the right thing for us collectors.

Chris said in the podcast, that he spoke with 1 distributor that originally had 175 Willy Wonka orders and so far 100 people have cancelled their Willy Wonka orders. That is just one distributor. Nearly $1 million in sales lost. Maybe all companies will take note of this. People speaking with their hard earned dollars, saying we aren’t going to take it anymore!

-2
#1569 44 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Exactly. These companies are charging premium prices for these games and i expect the quality to be on par with the price.

You’re totally right: at $7,500.00 to $12,500.00 we should expect this and more. That’s the principles the original game WOZ was built upon and it sold for $6,500, just a couple of years ago.

14
#1589 43 days ago
Quoted from RichieWrench:

None taken....I truly think they will do the right thing to those effected. I think it will be a case by case situation and it's going to take time.
Lers give them all a chance and show that they will do it and continue to make great games and they will learn from this as a great company does.
I truly feel that JJP is a great company.

Sorry Richie, JJP is not a great company. Great companies do not treat their patrons the way JJP does. They continued the POTC PF disaster knowingly with Willy Wonka. That is not the mark of a great company. They have not, nor will they replace with populated PFs and make all the POTC owners, nor the WW owners whole. Again, that is not a great company.

Wishful thinking will not make them turn around. Only by stop spending our hard earned money with them, will make them pause and rethink their strategy. Or go out of business, just like any company that will not take care of their customers. Would your plumbing company stay in business if you gave the nonsense disclaimer they are now giving to their customers??? This is not the mark of a great company. True, Stern gives this same statement, but they so far replace poor playfields at Sterns expense. When they stop doing that, we should all stop spending our hard earned dollars with them too.

-1
#1672 43 days ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

There is no proof Stern provides populated playfields for all defective playfields. None. In fact, people in this thread - and many others over many years - have reported that Stern, in fact, said “yours doesn’t qualify for a replacement”.
I believe Stern provided the very first “clear chipping correction kit” to their customers - basically nail polish and a que-tip - NOT JJP.
Stern finally, after a good long wait, replaced a series of GB playfields after a tremendous uproar about their lack of attention and concern for the inferior product they were shipping out on the regular. Since then, their record is actually fairly spotty on playfield replacement, fully populated or not. Some get them, others don’t. The persistent squeaky wheel combined with a good distributor probably makes a difference. But there’s no way Stern ever just says “ok, you’re right, we’ll send one right out”. Oh, and on multiple occasions Stern has sent replacements that were borked. This is just a fact. Reported many times.
Your insistent, uninformed defense of Stern while assassinating the character of JJP is shameful. JJP could wait until the end of the year to determine how to fix this and they would be on par with Stern’s demonstrated timing of deciding on a strategy for resolving issues.
Stern has a lot of defective playfields in the market right now. Let’s see how many of their customers get satisfaction.
This is an industry wide problem. Spooky and AP appear to have overcome the issue. The rest have a lot to prove. I won’t buy NIB from anyone right now, and when buying used, my decision making process will include full playfield inspection. And that, justifiably, includes ALL Sterns.

Not just calling JJP on this. If Stern won’t take care of us their customers, they’re in the same boat. Stop buying their games, we’re in agreement. No company should put out to us collectors a shoddy product at these high prices and not take care of their customers, if there is a legitimate issue. It is shameful if Stern has not taken care of everyone if that is the case. Only reason I’ve supported Stern, is so far to my knowledge they replace bad PFs. If that stops then so will my support of Stern. If documented, Stern should replace everyone and not make them feel like they have to fight Stern for it or that they’re being overly picky.

-1
#1709 43 days ago

All PF issues can be summed up like this:

People whom rent homes (location/operators) don’t really care about condition or quality of the home, just that they have a place to live and enjoy life.

Home owners on the other hand care very much about build quality and condition of the home over the long haul. If a builder were to hand you a paint brush and some paint/clearcoat and tell you to fix it yourself, you’d be outraged. Why are pinball owners/collectors any different??? Pinball companies need to get a grip on this understanding. They aren’t just selling to operators any longer, rather collectors are the bigger market now. Cater only to operators like the old days, if that ridiculous letter of excuses is going to be included in all JJP and Stern boxes. We collectors don’t accept it as a way out on selling us poor quality machines.

#1915 38 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

ballypinball why on earth are you posting in these topics now if you've not done your homework?
It's like fucking groundhog day... you're posting stuff with zero regard to the activity that has been going on for MONTHS, responses and activities during that time... and then posting stuff like 'no one will replace with populated pfs' when it's common knowledge Stern HAS done that... and not just with GB but prior titles to. It's their nuclear option when dealing with bad PFs. You of all people should be familiar with this.
I mean for fuck sakes, you roll in with stuff like 'only 7 people...' taking stats from who knows where, that are easily debunked with just a little reading. Do yourself a favor... get off whomever's teet that is feeding you info.. and do some of your own research.

While not a fan of your profanity, your post about this Ballypinball person is right on the money. Good post!

#1947 38 days ago
Quoted from LukyDuck:

I don’t know why you are attacking me. I am on the side of the owners who have concerns about the quality of their PF’s. They should be fairly compensated for the position they have been placed in.

Attacking by this person (procrastinator) is typical. Pay no attention and give trolls what they’re looking for. Ignoring them is best.

-1
#1948 38 days ago
Quoted from Procrastinator:

Right, You think a CC company will fight for you over a few millimeter of flaking paint chips? Maybe some more than others, but you will absolutely be responsible for shipping it back. Haha you really believe the CC company will force the manufacturers to pick up otherwise you get a refund? Pfft, riggght

Tis tis, delusions of grandeur only occurring in your mind. Now he thinks he represents not only JJP, but the Credit Card companies as well! Don’t you ever get tired of trolling???

#1980 36 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

For some reason there are a few people that think im just trying to throw JJP under the bus and thats just not true at all. I am no happier with Stern right now than i am with JJP. For anyone that wants to know why im here, its really simple, #1 i have friends that own POTC and they are not being taken care of by JJP, basically being told we aren't fixing your ganme that has a defective playfield that you bought from us.
#2 i am calling them out because they are wrong and unethical about how they are treating their customers. Is Stern any better? I think so. Will Stern take care of my two playfields that have pooling and one has chipping? I don't know, i sure hope so. If they don't im not going to keep it a secret or try and make excuses for them i can tell you that much.
And for the people that are worried about putting JJP or Stern out if business, sorry but thats not my problem. I personally have 2 pinball machines right now that have a combined value of 15 thousand dollars that have in my opinion defective playfields in them and im not happy about it. I am an average guy busting my nuts in a factory everyday and i just cant write this off for a loss and act like its no big deal. It took me a hell of a long time to save up that money to buy those games. I have bought 7 new Sterns over the last few years and i am a good customer. I hope that they treat me as such on these 2 games.

Agree with you and hope you get your issues resolved. Judging Stern by the past, think they will take care of you. Your fortunate to not have this trouble by owning JJP, because getting your issues taken care of with JJP, is another story it appears.

#2020 35 days ago
Quoted from wesman:

Not happy, reasonably satisfied. It's been a miserable last four months of my life dealing with this issue. Thanks for your "support".

Stay with this process of you being made whole. Just because a phone call came finally, after 4 months (shame), do you think you are made whole again? Giving you a unpopulated play field is like a car manufacturer calling up, apologizing for the terrible paint job, offering to send you a bucket of free paint and washing their hands of the whole deal. Like they gave you something and you should now be satisfied and tell everyone in all the threads how satisfied you are, because your past 4 months of pain yielded almost nothing. Does that make the company caller (Jack) a good guy some how??? You now are sitting there with a free can of paint, but still have a car that looks like manure.

Still not made whole and for your $10,000.00; ending up with a playfield that looks like trash, although now have a free can of paint. How is that satisfactory? Fully installed new populated PF is the only solution to make you whole, unless a full refund of purchase price is issued.

#2024 35 days ago
Quoted from zaphX:

It is interesting that the people who are beating the "populated playfield" drum the loudest do not own JJP games at all.
Demanding a full playfield swap is essentially saying "this chipped game is 100% without value and cannot be used." And that is just not true.

Also have purchased JJP games. Whether that chipped up/ pooling PF can be used again, is up to the company that made it, not the home buyer who purchased a NIB defect free machine.

#2027 35 days ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Not unreasonable.
First people complained nothing was being done, and that they should get a playfield at cost. That happened.
Then people complained they should get them free without paying anything. That happened.
Now people complain they should be populated playfields.
Where does this end?
From where I sit, all I see are pinside people being entitled and unreasonable while JJP is doing what they can to make people happy.

Don’t know where you have come up with your assessment. Simply not true. From the get go, NIB purchasers have wanted a fully populated PF, just like Stern offers to resolve damaged PF’s. Where it ends is also simple. Make all NIB purchasers whole with a defect free fully populated PF. That is not asking too much for the $10,000.00 of hard earned money spent.

#2035 35 days ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

I canceled my JPLE order as this didn’t seem to have a remedy. Are you saying Stern is now offering populated Playfield swaps or playfields for pooling/chipping? Honestly asking as I would still like to get the game but Stern has been silent on the subject from what the distributor mentioned.

To my understanding, Stern is standing behind JP documented PF issues and offering replacement populated PF’s, just like they did on GBs. I also have a JPLE on order and have been concerned as well, but am staying with it, as my distributor says Stern will stand behind and make whole any legitimate issues with JP PFs. Know of several friends that just had issues and their PFs fully replaced with populated PFs, so I don’t see why Stern is not going to honor any JP PF issues as well. Both Zack and Chaz when contacted said they will replace under warranty, is my understanding.

#2038 35 days ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Stern has never made blanket statements about Playfield issues and what remedies will or won’t be negotiated. It’s always been a case by case thing. All I can say is I’ve never once been disappointed by Sterns and my distributors responses to legitimate problems. I’m sticking with my JPle with this knowledge- I see no reason it would be any different this time.
And I cant wait for JPle. Not going to let these issues kill my excitement for this game.

Agreed. Very excited about JPLE and have been following this closely as well. Still don’t understand some people in this thread that are willing to let any company get away with giving us defective merchandise for any reason.

I get those same JJP fanboys downvoting my legitimate concerns all the time. I’m baffled that they keep making excuses for JJP and are okay with spending big money on defective products. What they don’t get, is I hold Stern to the same standards, not just JJP. If they stop honoring legitimate problems, I will call them on it too and stop buying their product. But so far, Stern is standing behind their playfields on a case by case basis, to my knowledge.

I’m not a fan of the Stern letter of excuse (that JJP copied), that states these are unique American made products, that vary from game to game. I get that hand made items can be different from machine to machine, but a defect is a defect period. Hand made or otherwise, it’s a defect that needs to be fixed under warranty. No excuses for JJP or Stern.

#2043 34 days ago
Quoted from Procrastinator:

To your knowledge? Can you share some of the info of who had replacement play fields sent out? I’m sure it would go a long way in assuring people there issues would be taken care of, as I haven’t seen anyone that has had a replaced populated playfield for pooling.
Everything is not black and white. No one has said this isn’t an issue and just go ahead and play on, but to act like the pins have zero value because of pooling/chipping? That’s just typical hysterics.

You know I can’t nor won’t share people’s personal information, no matter how much you try and bait me. Stay calm. Life is good! By site rules, you must PM me all your personal questions and concerns about my posts. They will thread eject you again if you keep this up.

#2045 34 days ago
Quoted from Procrastinator:

So you don’t know anyone that’s gotten a replacement for the pooling issue, thanks for confirming. Not sure how that’s bait, but appreciate the info.
I have no need to PM you, not sure what that even has to do with my question? Weird.

I’m putting you on ignore and will no longer see your posts. Your obsession with me is what is weird. You were told by the moderator to not discuss personal issues in the thread. You’re going to be ejected again.

#2054 34 days ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

They should, but they won’t.
Is there any other brand new item which people have paid more than $5,000 where they would accept this level of service? Hopefully, both companies get their acts together.

That is what baffles me completely, that there are people here that claim to be okay with damaged goods and willing to pay $10k for them. No other product on the planet has willing people paying these high prices and being fine with getting such lousy warranty service. Causes me to think these people must be JJP plants posting in this thread. It makes no other sense at all. If a product is defective, it should be replaced at the expense of the manufacturer. All other businesses work this way and are expected to provide defect free products to their customers.

-4
#2076 34 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

.
There's e, if i don't feel like they give me a satisfactory resolution you will not see me on here making excuses for them or taking up for them. As of right now though Stern has done everything great when i have had problems in the past .

There are several JJP apologist on pinside: no matter what lousy product JJP puts out, they make excuses and keep asking us why we aren’t okay with chipped pooling PFs. Their mission is to uphold JJP and they try to discredit anyone that says otherwise, as they hold in their hands chipped up equipment, claiming they’re okay with it. Lol

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