(Topic ID: 249691)

Wonka LE Sling Post Chipping in one month!!

By rs812

3 months ago

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  • Latest reply 39 days ago by Pinhead1982
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2 key posts have been marked in this topic

Post #1403 Response from JJP from the Pinball Magazine podcast Posted by RobertWinter (3 months ago)

Post #1407 Transcribed response from JJP from the Pinball Magazine podcast Posted by RobertWinter (3 months ago)

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#590 3 months ago
Quoted from megadeth2600:

I'm not a playfield clearcoat expert at all, but from what I can tell in those pics, the clearcoat is still hot when the playfield is being assembled. That's the *only* way you'd get those defects.

No - because the problems progress and get worse long after the pf should have been cured and hardened. It’s something that progresses with time... meaning the clear isn’t soft at juse one point in time.

Dunno how this thread is 500+ posts.. people have been discussing this for wonka for months now.

#829 3 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Honestly, I have no idea why JJP AND Stern aren't using mylar around all the points the posts contact the playfields. At the very least it would substantially cut down on the chipping, if not eliminate it. I guess it would slow down the line, though...

Mylar tends to separate from it’s glued contact when it has uneven pressure on it. Plus it can twist and be wrinkled itself... especially if screw holes are not trimmed back to avoid contacting the threads. Otherwise, removing screws tends to lift the Mylar.

#888 3 months ago
Quoted from Dr-pin:

Wood is the past. Still it should be possible to coat a wood playfield.

We still call plywood “wood” even though it’s an artificial laminate of veneers and glue. And pinball has always used plywood... not some cross section piece of wood

#891 3 months ago
Quoted from JY64:

A flipper alignment hole would not have that post there that said I have no idea what that hole is

It is the typical flipper adjustment mark. Nothing more. The threaded post defends the end of the flipper... and is poorly engineered itself.

#933 3 months ago
Quoted from mbwalker:

Darn, I was hoping it was flat underneath. That way you could install a thin smaller washer. If (or maybe when) the clear coat rippled, it would have been inside the post edge and less susceptible to damage. Since there would have been a slight elevation from the washer, the outer ring of the post wouldn't touch.
Seems like a good place to look into a standoff or maybe a 3D printed part (probably not strong enough). Something like this:
[quoted image]

You don't want the stand-off... because it will weaken the post's ability to resist lateral movement. Then you'll just get stuff bending and enlongating holes..

#994 3 months ago
Quoted from mbwalker:

Hey Flynn,
Don't disagree with your comment, but it looks like the skinny post is used in this location with a kicker. Couldn't JPP secure with one of these posts (or at least smaller than the big plastic post) then the big plastic post is just becomes a decoration, not touching or barely touching the PF?

Different posts are used for different reasons depending on the application. Is it needed? I don't know...but the support is different and you can't have posts that deflect easily.

#1049 3 months ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

list the names and game numbers of these other 93 you claim have issues otherwise you are the one full of shit

The percentage is just an effort to try to minimize the scope of this... what matters is the manufacturer isn’t resolving the problem for those impacted. So if you are the lucky 1%er... you’re fucked.

Meanwhile... of the 4 nib games I’ve seen in the last 4 weeks... 3 of them have the problem.

#1561 3 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Who really cares what your collection looks like at the end of the day, just have fun.

if you buy your games to just be trophy queens... you're in the wrong hobby. The game intrinsically includes the idea of wear and tear. If you buy pinballs just to have perfect games.. you're going to hate the game.

#1579 3 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Just because someone buys a game and wants to keep it nice definitely DOES NOT mean that they are in the wrong hobby. These game SHOULD stay nice in a HUO environment. I am proud of my games and i keep them in pristine condition. A brand new game with a chipping playfield is not acceptable period.

Re read what I said and pay attention to the words used

#1580 3 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Just because someone buys a game and wants to keep it nice definitely DOES NOT mean that they are in the wrong hobby. These game SHOULD stay nice in a HUO environment. I am proud of my games and i keep them in pristine condition. A brand new game with a chipping playfield is not acceptable period.

These are the same “collectors” that think people shaking their machines is abuse... who won’t take games to shows because they are afraid of them being handled or being played... and put 20-30% of the games price into mods on their games to doll them up. Yet can’t fix a simple switch stack and think schematics are hieroglyphs.... and what to define the “worst thing that can possibly happen” to a game to be 1/8” cosmetic chips around posts. Get real.

It sucks your new toy is no longer flawless... but that is inevitable in pinball. We spend good time and money rebuilding them... because they get broken, they wear, and they fail. Such is the life of a pinball machine.

#1611 3 months ago
Quoted from Manic:

Man I wouldn't try to minimize this calling it " cosmetic chipping"... this is BARE WOOD showing on PF's in the first month.

Agree it sucks - but it's not killing the game. Maybe shoot some CA under the exposed edge.. A little color matching acrylic dabbed in and you probably wouldn't know it unless you went hunting for it.

It sucks that NIB is not flawless... but 'worst thing that can happen' to a pinball machine. No.

#1613 3 months ago
Quoted from underlord:

Then you need to raise YOUR standards.
How much wear and tear in a month? C’mon man...

Read what I was replying to... who basically elevated condition over the notion of actually accepting the realities of owning and playing pinball machines.

#1619 3 months ago
Quoted from SyntheticDavid:

Pinball machines naturally have wear and tear so who cares if they come fucked up out of the box?! If you expect a NIB machine to look NEW you’re dumb and in the wrong hobby!

Defects have been part of the NIB experience for way longer than you've been in the hobby it seems.

Registration, insert crackling, graining, cabinet touchups, scrapes, blemishes in powder, broken assemblies, misassembled mechanics... and the list goes on.

Again the point was if you put 'looking perfect' above everything else - you'll never want to play your games.

#1650 3 months ago
Quoted from donkadelic:

Do you really think people who pay 12,500$ for pinball machines don't play them?

where do think all these 'HUO - low plays' ads come from?

#1663 3 months ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

many folks buy a game knowing that in a few months they will sell it for near what they paid for it

ergo one of the problems plaguing the community... false expectation of future values and what they should be. The idea that "I can buy NIB, sell it, and keep repeating that for every new title" and pay very little is a meeting of circumstances... not a standing convention. Then people get all upset if anything dares interrupts that cycle they believe "should" hold true.

Quoted from NeilMcRae:

just a quick question though - how many new in box games have you bought in the last 5 years @flynnibus ?

Only NIB I've bought myself is AC/DC when it was new. I have no personal interest in buying NIB games typically. I collected games for over 15 years before buying AC/DC NIB because the game had proven itself to me as something I really wanted. Now that there is so much new blood buying and selling games... I can simply wait a few weeks and let someone else take the NIB hit... or wait till the next sparkly light is shown and people shift their attention there. In recent years my collection has shifted almost entirely to 'virtually new' Sterns.. but I don't bother buying them NIB.. there is no value in that for me.

I'm blessed that I have a good circle of friends that operators and collectors.. so I've setup and unboxed virtually every title sold in the last 5 years. The only I can think of scanning the list I've not setup NIB have been AMH, Mustang, WWE, FT, RZ, BM66, and ACNC. From JJP CE editions, to Stern Pros.. the community is strong enough here I get to see, setup, and work on nearly all flavors.. and usually multiple examples. With the operators.. we unbox most new sterns the first week they hit the street.

I have trophy level games.. I have player games. But what I have learned is... if you buy them as things to sit and just admire.. you will lose in the long run.

#1667 3 months ago
Quoted from Palmer:

It's funny. Almost every one of your posts comes off as condescending

Maybe it's the frustration of the endless waves of n00bs telling everyone how pinball 'should be' simply because they lack perspective or the awareness to know it.

Quoted from Palmer:

First you suggest that complaining "collectors" are people who don't nudge their games, pay too much money for mods, and generally baby their games instead of play them. Then you pull the experience card

Yes, because I'm the type that donates countless hours and dollars to haul games to shows, run events, run leagues, help fill the ranks, fix games, donate parts, and more so we have a hobby.. and have been doing it for decades. Then some people stroll in and don't want their babies hurt.. then complain about the makeup at shows and whine about what others are bringing or not.

Quoted from Palmer:

You do realize that each time we collectively take it up the ass from a manufacturer we lower the standards of each future game that is released.

Do you see me telling you to keep buying games? Or see me buying them? I'm not telling anyone 'keep on going'. No, you see me supporting vendors like PBR who called out this kind of cost cutting years ago.. and spending money where people do think quality matters. Like Kerry Stair/Mantis Amusements.

Quoted from Palmer:

No one is asking for perfection like you state. A playfield that holds up after a couple hundred plays is not perfection...it is the norm. It has been for a long time. You should know since you are such a seasoned collector.

If you go back.. you'll find I've never said it was acceptable. What I stood up to was people acting like this is the worst possible thing that could happen to their games and now they are ruined or something.

People are just now catching on that this issue has been plauging playfields for many many months.. and most didn't even know it was happening to their games! What does that tell you about the significance to their experience with their games?

This is ghosting all over... it's crap... but it isn't the worst thing that can happen to your games.

#1680 3 months ago
Quoted from yancy:

Wanna buy one with clear & art chipped down to bare wood around several posts? If so, do you expect price to reflect condition?

Condition is always about what you can compare it too. If all the games are like this... until some other "fixed" pfs are made available... it's not gonna kill a game if you want a wonka. It just comes with a wonka...

If you don't want to buy a wonka due to pf chips ... well... you don't want a wonka enough I guess.

#1681 3 months ago
Quoted from Manic:

Ok I'll bite... just what IS the "worst thing that can happen to your game"?

Something that makes it into a paperweight.

#1687 3 months ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Worst thing is a pin that catches on fire (Williams early SS. Remember, WMS= Wires May Sizzle). Also, pins that electrocute players. Improper grounding on SS pins cause that 55 volt sensation.
Some Williams EM Aztec's did the full line voltage zap to players.

I know... lots of things that basically hurt people or the game self destructs.. and people are more worried about 1mm wide chips.

#1722 3 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Exactly. flynnibus criticizes NIB buyers for being over critical of their games and worrying over Playfield damage, yet in the same breath admits he has only ever bought one NIB game, instead preferring to buy used whereby he can check the condition of the game and let the NIB buyer “take the NIB hit”.
flynnibus it begs the question.....what NIB hit would a used buyer deduct for a chipped Playfield with paint missing over a non chipped one with no paint missing?

My personal buying preferences are immaterial to the subject... which was pinball machines are not hands off trophies without flaws. They wear, they have flaws, they break, we fix them, we keep on living. If you can’t accept that... you’re in the wrong hobby.

#1727 3 months ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

OK, great news here. So how do I fix the pooling and cracking?

Chips? Same way it’s been done for decades. Water thin CA, let it wick in, and use compression until dry. Touch up with acrylic if needed.

The key will be to see if the adhesion problems continue to inch their way further away from the contact spots. So far it seems like direct tight contact is the only part where the pfs are failing so far.

#1745 3 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

You’re seriously suggesting a NIB pinball buyer should be expected to touch up paint and clear on their PF after a few hundred games?

Not what I said - if you can't follow the conversation without interjecting your own distortions.. just scroll past.

#1761 3 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

You’re full of sh*t. You know full well that an experienced used game buyer like yourself is not going anywhere near any recent games with paint chipping unless it was offered at a significant discount. And even then I’d guess you still wouldn’t buy it.

Dunno why you keep bringing up shit that wasn't part of the conversation I was replying to. You and others keep trying to bring up what I would buy or not... things that have nothing to do with the replies or post i was replying to.

Wonka could have the best PF in the universe... I still wouldn't buy it. But its because I don't need a Wonka, nor do I need any new games right now. Like I said... immaterial to the posts replying to "the worst possible thing that can happen" or "how do I fix chips in the PF".

You posters with the "you're with us, or against us!" attitudes can't follow a conversation for shit.

#1783 3 months ago
Quoted from jfh:

Not sure if you are serious, but no chance. 20-25% for a warranty is obscene. It would have to provide awesome coverage for me to even consider something close to 5-10%

10-20% is the typical annual service contract amount in tech and industry... so beware the convention is out there.

Consumer extended warranties sold at the retailer are often at that 10% range,

#1789 3 months ago
Quoted from jfh:

This is not a service contract we are talking about.
Depending on the warranty, I’d consider 10%. But if it’s anywhere near 25%. I’m not even going to consider the product in the first place.

Service contract in the terms of support and replacement parts...

#1791 3 months ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Since the tourney guys think they are the ones saving pinball maybe they should all buy a NIB JJP/Stern in an act of solidarity to support the pin companies that can apparently do no wrong. I mean someone will have to make up for all the lost sales of the lowly collectors. Let’s go tournament guys...JJP/Stern need a sign of real support....your money.

Nothing like hyperbole to put the icing on your mistakes. The typical “us verse them” crap again. Events and shows != tournaments

#1793 3 months ago
Quoted from jfh:

Ok. But you’re missing the point that any warranty contract at the level suggested is ridiculous and DOA.

It’s sucks... but I’ve always bought full plastic sets for my games as insurance because you know they won’t be available later. Add in people are paying $200 for bolt on pieces of plastics... and paying for nib and shipping simply for piece of mind (verse used)... I bet many would pay.

#1797 3 months ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

My guess is a lot of the tournament guys are more concerned with their social community and their pinball personality that now makes them somebody. Or so they think

I will be the first to complain about the cliques and Klingons out there... but the biggest social footprint in pinball is not tournament people... but the footprint fed by the endless waves of say nothing opinion podcasts and streams of people just playing.

Meanwhile I prefer to help run events and contribute to great pinball experiences.

#1799 3 months ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

Different strokes, but I’m glad you’re having fun with your events.

Come on down and see what the buzz is about... https://super.magfest.org/gaming/arcade

#1804 3 months ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Progress pics. Both of my star posts have now blistered and chipped. I have blistering on most of the rest of the play field as well. Pretty much any post that's screwed into the field.
1900 plays. I took possession of the pin on July 18th, and the pin sat unplayed for more than a week while I waited for replacement opto boards. So basically 5 weeks of service.
-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107
[quoted image]
[quoted image]

Have any pix of the wrinkling around the other posts?

My observations so far have shown a distinct pattern that show they are likely to chip on the side opposite of the high power ball strike. Curious to see if that holds true in your example too since you say you have a lot of the wrinkling.

I’m theorizing the blisters form from the squeezing compression... but maybe stable until the post’s movement “pops it”. If that theory holds... washers would help because the washer should isolate some of that impact movement. Especially the neoprene ones. So maybe we lose some post rigidity, but we end up with wrinkles that are stable.

#1814 3 months ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Here's 7 more. I can't get any decent pictures of others without disassembly.
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]

Thx for those. It's interesting in your examples many of them are wrinkling only on one side. It's hard to get the perspective in the tight shots.. but would you say the wrinkling is mostly on the side opposite of ball travel/impact?

#1817 3 months ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Whatever side of the post is under tension from a rubber, that side is "more squished." Any post that is not under tension, the blistering is pretty much uniform all around the post.

An interesting observation.. and helps orient those photos too. Very nice.

#1871 3 months ago

ballypinball why on earth are you posting in these topics now if you've not done your homework?

It's like fucking groundhog day... you're posting stuff with zero regard to the activity that has been going on for MONTHS, responses and activities during that time... and then posting stuff like 'no one will replace with populated pfs' when it's common knowledge Stern HAS done that... and not just with GB but prior titles to. It's their nuclear option when dealing with bad PFs. You of all people should be familiar with this.

I mean for fuck sakes, you roll in with stuff like 'only 7 people...' taking stats from who knows where, that are easily debunked with just a little reading. Do yourself a favor... get off whomever's teet that is feeding you info.. and do some of your own research.

#1921 3 months ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

He’s a buffoon, but everyone continues to respond to him.

he's actually very well connected... and in the recent decade (after his quiet lurking after his sell off to PPS) he's normally quite grounded... even if a bit too coy or gruff. But this one is WAYYYY out of character.. like he just came out frozen hybernation like Austin Powers..

#1969 3 months ago
Quoted from donkadelic:

Kinda hard to ship something back to a company that refuses the return, that's the point. All the CC company wants to know is a) is there something wrong with the item and was it purchased in the last 6 months (doesn't matter the scale). They will then ask you if you have tried to contact the seller to return the item at which case you tell them yes and they refused. That's really all you have to do and at that point Stern/JJP will prob get the message and allow you to return it after the CC company contacts them. But if they don't and still refuse, more than likely the CC will refund you the money on the spot.

But you didn’t buy the game from stern/jjp... you bought from a distributor...

#1970 3 months ago
Quoted from LukyDuck:

I don’t know why you are attacking me. I am on the side of the owners who have concerns about the quality of their PF’s. They should be fairly compensated for the position they have been placed in.

It doesn’t matter what “side” you are on,... you don’t get to makeup facts to support your POV. He was calling out your incorrect statements about the age of this problem.

#1973 3 months ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

You and others trying to nitpick certain facts can’t cloud the big picture here

No, again, you have flawed idea that 'if you counter me, you are against the big picture'. No, just because you are on the correct path, that doesn't mean you get to just make up whatever you want to help justify it.

Even the righteous need to be accurate. Hyperboyle, flailing, and flat out wrong facts, do not aid the cause -- they undermine it.

#1975 3 months ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

True however some people will use small inconsistencies to try to discredit people when they are losing the larger discussion at hand. Maybe he didn’t have the time frame on this issue exactly right but the time frame was long enough to have it on POTC and then continue with WW. Plenty long enough to be the wrong thing to do by JJP. Overall he had it right because they knew long enough and did nothing about it.

simply put.. accuracy matters, even if you are still pointed in the correct direction. That's all he was correcting, and people piled on calling him a troll/etc for fighting to keep things honest. That's garbage. Pointing in the right direction does not give carte blache to munge the details.

The "the details don't matter.. I'm still right.." or "Ok, I was wrong, but I'm still right.." mantra just leads to inflated stuff and in the forum world.. just leads to the telephone game where one mistake is repeated and exaggerated by 3 more people, and it goes on and on.

It's good to see some progress here... but I do wish JJP was a bit more forthcoming on the topic.

Free PFs shows action but we don't know if that's a pass through from Mirco, or a real support action.

I wonder what people's reactions would be if JJP offered these options

1) A free shipped bare PF
2) A cash refund of some 'depreciation' amount.. let's call it $600
3) A discount on a future title.. say.. $1000 off MSRP
4) A buy-back on their game

The buy-backs could then be refurbished for 'open box' prices...

I think all of those would be meaningful.. but I bet most people don't want to actually give up their game, so would hold out for a PF swap. If JJP could prepare to build enough games.. PF swaps could be more economical too. I wonder if arranging common distribution points would help too (imagine GEX, Pinstar, etc) would be hubs at major shows, etc.

#2112 88 days ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Its already starting to happen.....Munsters, IM, DP LE's all selling for $1-2K below NIB cost....I had a chance to buy a HUO (50 plays) Munsters LE or $6800, but passed on the deal...

That's the norm...not a pop. It's normal "depreciation"

It's actually abnormal, not normal, to break even or better on a NIB game. The appreciation of game values in the used market does not apply uniformly to the games that were bought NIB.. especially at the LE price points.

It's pretty common for the NIB games to drop 500-1000 in the first year or two.. then stabilize the drop off rate. Mucking with things is the radically increasing NIB prices of late. There used to be more a trend of a HUO premium would be about X dollars... a HUO pro would be about Y... etc that would be pretty consistent across the different titles... stinkers excluded (WWE).

The only time games were appreciating was during the frenzy of 'gotta have it' and constrained availability. Once those games are all sold and in the market for a bit... the frequency of people are paying a premium over NIB prices is actually quite low.

It's why people like me are never in a hurry to buy NIB... there is no reason to (as a consumer). Just let the games develop, see which are worthy, and buy a HUO low play game at a discount if you decide you need to have that game.

#2116 88 days ago
Quoted from statsdoc:

Do you think that price appreciation on older pins is also a function of the price charged for newer pins?

1000% percent so. It's so easy for a buyer to justify a higher used price when they compare to what they would spend on a new pin. If new pins were still $3500... no way 30yr old B/C titles would selling for the same amount. They aren't 'special' in anyway.. But when they look at a new pin costing $5500.. it's alot easier to justify a used pin asking $3000...

The appreciation in the last 10 years has been the highest in that used SS-DMD era pin range for this very reason. Demand plus price tolerance increasing due to the comparision to 'alternative' buying options (new pins).

Basically as long as the new pins keep increasing... there will be a wake behind them that leaves a space for 'premium' used pins to fill. And when premium used pins go up... people will ask more for their 'slightly less than premium' pin.. and it moves down the line.

The flush of new buyers in the market has allowed that to happen and flourish. The old grumpy guy that says "I would never pay $3000 for Demo man!" is easily replaced by the new hobbyist eager to get their first few pins.. and that sales results in the "market says its worth $3k now...".

The inflating prices has been good for the strength of the manufacturers... and the idea of low depreciation has helped fuel the number of NIB buyers. But people who think their NIB games will all appreciate are gonna face reality at some point.

If you wanted to make money on pin appreciation... they shouldn't have been chasing the next TRON LE... but rather buying all the used pins at 800-1500.. and then selling them for 2000-3000 just a few years later.

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