Quoted from cooked71:
All 3 I think, possibly combined with new environmentally friendly clear.
There are PFs being made today that don’t have this issue so it’s specific to Mirco it seems. I’m betting the stern PFs that have this issue were mirco, and the stern PFs that don’t have this issue were sourced elsewhere. Just a theory.
Quoted from jimwe5t:
The huge difference is, Stern will stand behind it and not charge $550 for a in warranty period replacement with a playfield with the same issue, if it is needed. I see you make off comments about Stern quite often. Are you a JJP fanboy too? Will think twice about purchasing your mods in the future.
I haven't seen anyone getting a new populated PF or free PF for GOTG, Beatles, etc? If I have missed them replacing all these problem PFs, please link it to us? I think the GB playfield is the only place I saw this happen, but haven't seen anything on the other titles of PF replacement.
Quoted from Psw757:
I could have sworn within the last few days someone said Stern is finally replacing Beatles PF’s.
Not sure of the details, I have had mine since the first week they were released and haven’t had any issues and I’m over 1000 games played. Hopefully this is a good sign that I have a good PF!
That would be great news if they are. They need to do it for all the PFs having the issues including JP2 now as well.
Quoted from MikeS:
I know someone that will be getting a replacement Beatles populated PF because of clear and art chipping off the playfield. There have been numerous other titles where this has been done for besides GB. SM Vault as an example was also hit hard with ghosting issues. It sucks to see but at least Stern is standing behind their product.
This is good then. Makes me feel better about my JP2 Prem I have on order.
Quoted from drfrightner:
WOW lets unpack your comments here...
You say Stern took care of you instantly and JJP won't call you back, and fanboys won't admit the truth, blah, blah, blah... with all my machines I've only had ONE problem ever and I called JJP. They sent me a replacement part the next day and I was back in business. I had two different techs call me back. With Stern because they've gone SUPER cheap with the rail system they have now, my entire Munsters playfield fell into the machine. The playfield became wedged into a bolt inside the cabinet after it fell just collapsed into the cabinet. I called Stern NEVER got a call back not ONE! I called my dealer and he told me this has happened a few times let him know if I need help. So I had to get a couple guys to help me get it out, had to take half the damn machine apart to get it out. The entire playfield just FELL INTO the cabinet... what Stern has done with these new rails, c'mon they're not even 1/10th as good as the older machines. Or another way to put it not 1/10th as good as JJP's.
Either way we fixed it ourselves but the bottom of that playfield is seriously damaged where it become wedged on a bolt... it dug itself into the playfield. Then we had to add spacers to the rails, we had to bend them out more so this wouldn't happen again. Still the playfield doesn't lock in like the old machines... I wonder why?
Stern is a giant in the industry and I say good for them. JJP is also a giant in the industry and good for them as well. Both companies make mistakes and hopefully in most cases they own up to them and fix things. I'm merely sharing my most recent Stern story as an example this all goes both ways, and probably across every company when metal balls fly around a piece of painted wood. I bought a brand new Beatles after 10 plays the pop targets BROKE totally cracked cheap thin plastic ... nothing like the old day. I had to order a part and replace... oh well. I guess that's pinball.
As for putting Stern and JJP in the same discussion I agree but don't agree. I don't agree because EVERY pinball company should be put in the same discussion because they're all making pinball games. Every company Stern, JJP to everyone between should be held to the exact same standard end of story.
Why I would agree, because these are two totally different companies, one is making games faster than lightning (STERN), and the other company takes twice maybe three times as long to develop games because their games are so different, unique, and custom. You can only compare a Stern and a JJP in the fact they're both pinball games. JJP hands down makes the more detailed, high tech, original game... its not even close. I like Stern to as I've bought them, and will continue to buy them if I like the theme of the game. The single most high tech, most original, game ever made was POTC JJP and I would challenge ANYONE to dispute that anyone, and Wonka is a close second. That doesn't mean that's why you should or shouldn't like a JJP over a Stern. Personally I think the least themed game I've ever seen is Spooky TNA, but there are people here that love that thing. Who am I to say you shouldn't like what you like, you can like whatever you want. So why are there so many people who tell you almost on a daily basis not to like a JJP game?
I'm sure there are people with problems with all the companies but it seems like JJP gets picked on the most by far... talk about fanboys. I think if JJP found a cure for cancer they would beaten over the head. If you love pinball you want all manufacturers to succeed, thrive, prosper, and take care of issues with their products the same no matter Stern to the start up. Lets be fair to everyone. Lastly, let me say that there are pros and cons to every supplier. JJP probably does have more issues with their games because they just pour more into them, every game is trying to be custom, that is always going to create more problems. Until JJP decides to streamline the design, remove some of the uniqueness from each game, you will probably experience more problems with a JJP than a Stern. With that being said do I want JJP to stop being JJP absolutely NOT! I don't want JJP to be more like Stern even it meant fewer problems but I would like JJP to settle on more common parts across all their new and future games. I want all pinball companies to learn from their mistakes and anything and everything they do into the future to be better than they were before. Stern has the most experience no one is denying that... but every time I have even the minor issue my first thought isn't to run to pinside and start a thread about it. People should deal with their their supplier first and foremost your issue is with them and no one else. Every supplier deserves the opportunity to deal with you directly to solve all problems.
When it comes to these playfield issues, there are two facts we have:
Stern has done populated playfield swaps for free, for customers with this kind of issue. (even if in some cases people had to really fight for it)
JJP has not.
And it kills me to say that because I love JJP machines.
Quoted from jimwe5t:
The major issue here is chemical off gassing from VOCs in the home. Big danger to us and our families, so the use of safe clear coats by all pinball companies is vital. Water based clear coats without harmful VOCs being used is ever needful. We don’t want automotive products as they are very dangerous closed up in our homes. They contain major carcinogens and must not be used in pinball products or the realization of these ever apparent VOCs will cost us in the future in the way of good health.
Indoor pollution is real and must be avoided. All pinball manufacturers must be responsible here to protect us and our families from dangerous off gassing VOCs in our homes. No product containing harmful VOCs of any level is acceptable. Even low VOCs is simply not acceptable either. They still have off gassing for years and create harmful pollution in our homes. This makes clear coats difficult to deal with I realize, but there are safe solutions in the green VOC-less community. It just takes a good 6 months drying time. Use of playfield protectors would avoid most all these problems. I install PF protectors on all my machines and never see these problems now.
No thanks. To all of that.
Quoted from jimwe5t:
Many countries in Europe have outlawed these dangerous chemicals. Few ill effects not reported only because people had no idea, just like asbestos they had no idea, till it was too late and had to be removed all over the world. VOCs are the next asbestos. Just ask paint companies about all the lawsuits they are facing with VOC harmful ingredients. Just because you’re unaware, doesn't mean it doesn’t exist.
Yes, those old machines contained many harmful off gassing materials. Just go up and take a deep breath with your down in one of those tables and with clear sinuses you’ll instantly understand.
And sometimes we later learn that these harmful things weren’t actually harmful or were not near as harmful as they were made out to be. But that’s discussion for another thread.
Quoted from Extraballz:
And yet another question is if these issues are caused by a switch to water based clears then shouldn’t all the PF’s using this method be pooling/chipping? Confused by the fact some people are saying their clear is good and not pooling. The plot thickens.
Yea I'm not sold on it being some change to the materials required by some regulation. As you pointed out, there are plenty of playfields being made today without this issue.
Quoted from jimwe5t:
Have done more research on this and found that JJP/Mirco is using water based clear instead of two pack polyurethane because of the environmental impact of the fumes pollution in our homes. Actually if this is the case, my opinion has turned 180 degrees. JJP/Mirco should be applauded for not using the very dangerous two pack polyurethane that many countries have now outlawed because of it off gassing in our homes and being very carcinogenic and super dangerous to us and our families health. I’d rather live with some chipping than having health problems.
Still think, giving 6 months or at least longer curing time is the answer and not printing artwork under the high impact areas, like Stern has done on Munsters, GOTG, etc., in the sling areas and such. No print clear coat adhesion issues there. If JJP were to come out and say this is the reason, who could be upset with them??? Except, JJP not giving enough curing time before assembly. Or over tightening mechs/posts. Or using too thick of a layer of clear coat. JJP should use this as a marketing coo instead of all the negative press they are getting now.
Quoted from JodyG:
Try to get him at work...he will probably "drop your call" in one of the 27 imaginary tunnels on his way to work....like he did to HarryHoudini.
Did Harry actually buy a game from Joe though? All of Harry's JJP games are 2nd hand far as I know... So what does Joe even really have to do with Harry. :p
JJP response has been “buy another bad playfield unpopulated for $550”
I’m loving JJP less these days :/
Quoted from Cgpinhead:
Is there though? Has anybody counted? Let’s start on page one and do an honest count of the known machines with problems. The low number might surprise you.....Don’t get me wrong, I completely empathize with those that have issues. I myself am waiting to hear from the manufacturers before I go through with my purchase... But I just suggest before throwing the baby out with the bath water has anyone actually counted?
You can no more say that the majority have no problems than we can say the majority do. Either way there are a significant number with the problem. See the poll here:
Over 100 with problems. That’s just on pinside and just people who saw and voted in the thread, so it’s a small sampling of owners to begin with. The number who voted they don’t have problems was around 50. So of 150 votes, 2/3 have the problem.
Quoted from PanzerFreak:
If regulations surrounding the types and amounts of chemicals that can be used are negatively impacting playfield quality isn't it time for Stern and JJP to consider dumping wood playfields altogether in favor of a composite alternative? There's a few examples of pins being made over the years using composite playfields that have held up extremely well.
If a high quality playfield alternative became the norm and issues such as severe dimpling, clear chipping, clear pooling, etc went away would anyone really care if the playfield wasn't made out of wood? I wouldn't.
I don’t buy this is some regulation issue. If it was then why are there many playfields produced today without this issue from CGC, spooky, CPR, and others?
Quoted from tpir:
I'm sorry, I don't mean this to be disrespectful, but I don't get it. You think making a podcast about opting out of a CE is going to get JJP to reverse course and give free playfield replacements to everyone affected?
I completely understand bailing on any NIB pin given the events of the past few weeks. I definitely don't see how cancelling a preorder on an expensive toy is something that needs to be "supported" or might be "over the top." Cancelling is a no-brainer here IMO until JJP at least makes a statement. (Sadly cancelling my JP2 premium first thing tomorrow morning )
The more coverage this gets, the more pressure there is for JJP to do something.
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