Replying from another thread here because it’s more appropriate for this topic.

Yeah, I found and read this entire thread with my wife after talking to a couple distributors about Munsters (bought a new Premium with all the upgrades) and trying to place a pre-order for Wonka CE and the Red 75th Anniversary WoZ.

One distributor didn’t want to take a preorder for the JJP tables at all and strongly encouraged me to think twice about JJP tables in general due to basic, repeated, and systemic quality control problems he’s observed with their tables.

He told me about the major headaches he has had trying to support his buyers of NiB JJP tables and how JJP just leaves him and his folks hanging while they kick out yet another new table with the same old issues. One dealer didn’t deal with them at all due to problems they saw others having. Another would grudgingly accept my preorder (tables were listed on their site) but cautioned I should be patient and expect to need to do some work beyond what is normally expected for a NiB pin. Another dealer had been a fan and supplier until pirates and these other debacles made it hell for them to justify selling and supporting.

After hearing the same story from multiple places I looked up the WoZ and Wonka threads here on pinside and I’m blown away at the type and number of JJP Playfield problems.

WoZ played great. So great I was ready to buy it on impulse. Based on that and Wonka’s theme alone I was
Ready to pre-order a Wonka CE.

But I’m not comfortable paying an electric cars worth of money for two tables that may have playfield curing/art problems with less than 100 plays and no support.

2 out of 3 distributors I talked to said if I had playfield issues of this kind with a Stern first, they are much more rare. Second Stern will usually swap it out.

(I didn’t think to ask the first distributor I talked to.)

Heartbroken because WoZ was a fun play. From what I’m reading and even the distributors admit, Wonka is a good play too. Possibly JJPs best. Just don’t expect it to be finished (code) and don’t expect the playfields to last half as long as tables from back in the day, or a NiB Chicago Gaming, or NiB Stern at half the price.

Just the info I have gathered all second hand.

Take with a pinch of salt.

If ya’ll have info that particular runs of WoZ are free and clear (see what I did there). I’d love to know what to look for.

Wonka CE isn’t out yet so who knows what state that will ship in.

I have to assume based on their track record no material improvements/changes to build/finish quality.

Encouraging. I’m not trying to bag on JJP. Honestly painful to see all the issues.

Was blown away when 3 separate companies in the same day either said they were walking away or keeping back.

I know it sounds sketchy with me not naming names but I’m not because I don’t want JJP retaliating against these folks or holding back inventory. They still have a few die hard customers waiting on their pre-orders or open issues.

Ideally JJP should fix the underlying problems that lead to these situations. Maybe they are and it just takes time to see.

The dealers I’ve talked to simply do not have confidence these games will hold up.

I am encouraged by your own personal experience. If there was some way for me to know what made yours special and I could verify I got one made similarly I would happily pull the trigger.

WoZ was fun as hell to play. I wanted the upcoming Red 75th that still has the flying money. Wonka looks to be fun too.

I honestly want these games in my home. Just not with a playfield that’s never gonna cure.

Following this thread has given me a good understanding of why all this stuff may be happening.

I’m sticking around and commenting in hopes that JJP is watching and working on it. Also hoping to be here when we learn if/when the issues start clearing up or at least have found ways to identify affected playfields. Prior to purchase.

ECLE? Forgive my n00b-ness.

The new 75th Red has such a nice topper. But those aren’t out yet right?

This would be very enlightening and possibly very helpful in companies like Stern, JJP, and others ensuring proper process is followed.

Wood completion date.
Painted date.
Clearcoated date.
Clear-coat curing completed date.

Each stamped clearly on the bottom of the underside of the playfield.

Sure a company could forge it all. But if their playfields are crap and they are found to be forging it then that would be be perfect reasoning to terminate the production relationship and/or pursue legal action.

Without this and/or a curing/hardness/brittleness test like someone else proposed here it’s all just take it on faith, ship it, and see what happens.

Not sad at all. This isn’t the owners thread being hijacked. It’s a thread specifically made for discussion of the chipping/playfield issues.

This one?
https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/83744

Thanks. There is an ECLE for sale currently but it has some backbox damage and sounds like they are only interested in a local sale. So I’ll just wait and keep my eyes open.

North Carolina.

It’s about time we gave the situation a name ending in gate.

Crazy thing is, I remember sitting in a panel (as an audience member) at California Extreme 8 years ago where Stern reps were talking about how pinball was really struggling as a platform and the future was uncertain so next moves by any company wanting to remain relevant had to be deliberate and on point.

Fast forward to now. Pinball has picked up considerably (maybe in part due to Pinball FX and Pinball Arcade reviving broad interest and partly old favorites coming back as remakes). And you have innovators like JJP redefining what one can expect from pinball.

The Apple tree pop bumpers in WoZ, Flying Monkey, melting witch, spinning house... all this in one game! And that one game being my first exposure to JJP. I was honestly blown away.

But then to have distributors not feel comfortable selling them. Multiple generations of tables with same problems. It’s unanimous within this thread that for certain tables specific used runs are the way to go. It’s a dominant theme in this thread that NiB is an expensive lottery.

I get problems due to new tech and taking chances with innovative physics and mechs. I’ll happily take those risks for the fun factor.

But the paint not sticking to the playfield? Clear coat puddling? My basic expectation is that the board will hold up to home use in a proper climate controlled environment.

I know they use different processes now. But my problem is I shouldn’t have to know, or care.

It’s like still making cars but suddenly loosing the special formula to make proper wheels.

What is my point? I’m afraid for pinball. If folks are scared to buy new tables. The read won’t be that it was quality issues.

The read will be the pinball fad has died down again.

Companies will shut down production. And current inventory will be all she wrote.

To another posters point, I don’t want JJP, Stern, Etc to shutter their doors.

I want them to think again about the long term, past their current sales, about the future they want for pinball and the roles their current products and services are playing in preserving it.

This renewed interest can fade back into the shadows just as quickly as it fired up.

That’s true. More folks employed with disposable income certainly plays a role.

Whatever the reasons I just feel Stern, JJP and all cannot assume folks will continue to put up with this kind of value uncertainty for their dollars.

Especially if the economy takes a tumble and/consumer confidence in the product wanes.

I’m patient. I have more time than money anyway.

Exactly!

I like how for each individual mech you had to mention a different game having something similar.

My point was that the game was numerous mechs and custom finishing touches all found in one machine.

No mods. Not just 1 or two gimmicks. Stock with multiple gimmicks.

You got my point.

No idea why you got downvoted for this.

They set a mood and paint an environment. A living one even.

If that sort of thing wasn’t wanted or valued then the modding community wouldn’t be so active.

Hehehehe “clear” point.

I’m not going to argue that there isn’t plenty of cool pins with different or even better mechs. I haven’t played everything.

I recently played Swords of Fury and loved the various mini playfields.

I just don’t see how older tables having different or even better mechs negates what JJP has done with tables like WOZ and how enjoyable it made it for me to play.

My point was that it was my first JJP experience and I was instantly impressed.

It looked great, played great, and made me want to keep playing to see what might happen next.

It made me want to buy the table even.

I was trying to give some honest kudos to JJP in a thread where I’ve been mostly critical and skeptical of them.

I never claimed no other table ever did anything innovative or better.

Just that the table shows/plays well. No small feat for a company that is a relatively new challenger.

Noooooooooo.

Nooooooo! I’m gonna have to watch my Munsters when it arrives.

Speaking as someone that canceled their Wonka CE pre-order while in the process of placing it. A distributor encouraged me to read pinside JJP threads first so I’d know what I may be getting into. Wow. I wasn’t ready for this.

I could live with something like 50 out of 1000 pf’s having issues. Provided the company shows a track record of fixing/replacing those 50 upon the customer identifying and reporting them as defective.

From what I’ve read we don’t know the number affected but I’ve seen 0 speak up and say JJP resolved their issue. I’ve read of them covering up the issue (washers) and making the issue the customers problem (we’ll maybe sell you another pf for $550 and you can find someone to do the 72 man hours of labor to rebuild it piece by piece).

If I bought a new car under warranty with poorly sealed head gaskets, I’d expect the dealer to fix the problem.

Not sell me a new engine and tell me good luck with the swap.

Before someone tells me it’s not a valid analogy I’d like to point out that a Wonka CE is the cost of a new (albeit cheap) car.

As a potential new customer to JJP that gives me pause.

Glad you had fun doing it. I look forward to seeing it!

I do occasional live-streams and interviews also from time to time. Never (yet) in the pinball/arcade space. Mostly in the Retro gaming/developer space.

If you’re ever up for another. I’d love to get your story on how you got into collecting and built up to what you have now.

Also thanks for speaking up!

The more coverage it gets, the more of us potential buyers that are aware. The more of us that are aware, the fewer sales.

The problem is spreading worse than we all feared.

Now some players morals are pooling and chipping!

*ducks*

Just trying to lighten the mood ya’ll this thread is going to -11!

Maybe they should update it to something like:

“Remember the wonder you felt as a kid playing pinball? We sure do. Ever imagine making your own? We sure have. That’s why our tables are a chip off the ole block and each chip will be unique to your playfield. It’s our way of making you, not just a player, but one of the artists. Welcome back to pinball.”

Just listened to it.

Honestly, he just confirmed that a Wonka is not for me. I keep turning this into a huge post justifying why and then deleting all of it.

Darn it, here I go...

I’m not a JJP hater. I just can’t buy a product that they don’t know what the problem is. Can’t say when or if it will be fixed. Do say they will stand by it “like they always do.” While at least a dozen on this thread have said JJP left them out to dry on this or other tables.

Once my Munsters Premium arrives (which I am terrified will have pooling) I am done with NiB until I read this stuff is sorted.

I keep following hoping for a resolution.

Glad I read about the person who installed a new post on their months old table and got new pooling. That sucks.

Until reading that was thinking about buying those soft washers to handle any pooling I encountered.

Seems like let it be and pray for good support if it chips. Or be ready to patch it up with superglue. Anyone got a good tutorial (video?).

I was wondering the exact same thing.

My AFMR LE #21 is awesome. Rock solid. Had some issues first few weeks but distributor and CGC support was responsive and on point. I had a blemish on the main saucer I didn’t like. A new one was on my doorstep a week later. I had ramps and stuff not behaving as expected. They did FaceTime chats, recorded videos, and printed instructions on how to do what needed to be done.

The product was not perfect out of box but the support got me 100% to where I wanted and expected the product to be.

Another site has picked up this story and run with it:

https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/this-week-in-pinball-august-26th-2019/

I’ve bookmarked the hell out of this thread and other sites with theories, suggestions, your examples of chipping, and statements by the various vendors.

This thread is impossible for a noob or the faint at heart to follow at this point without spending multiple hours. There is right, wrong, and uncertain info in this thread and sorting through all of that that’s even more time.

Case in point. I’d been following this thread and other for several days and had already placed an order for a NiB Stern table only to find out moments later. Yes, their tables can also have these pooling/chipping issues.

I’m thinking of doing a 5-10min YouTube video about the whole situation. Has anyone else here already done so?

I feel like if we could focus our efforts into a clear and organized story with examples and currently known statements and responses from the companies involved we might be able to at least provide that as a resource for customers to make informed decisions about potentially affected tables and vendors.

Not by any means suggesting folks stop commenting here.

Just letting ya’ll know what I’m thinking of doing and asking if any of you would like to help by sanity checking my outline and content or providing additional info before I release it into the wild.

I lol’d at this commentary and appreciate the humor.

That said, it doesn’t seem odd to me at all that a guy as busy as he must be decided to vacation over the Labor Day holiday weekend.

It’s also not a surprise that he was able to (literally) phone in a sound clip.

Most likely he’s seeing the sights with the family using a US phone with dodgy international coverage. Earlier or later at the hotel the WiFi would generally be good enough for that sort of thing.

Chances are good folks from hq texted, emailed, or called him to the effect of “hey, a huge dumpster fire is burning over the Wonka playfields, distributors are getting wary, and pinside has a 30 pages+ thread on it. We’re getting calls, emails, cancelled orders, and now this podcast hit us up for comment. I know you’re on vacation but the shitstorm is killing our support channels. We should think about giving some kind of statement.”

In short. I hope this thread doesn’t derail into folks vilifying a busy guy for taking a vacation.

Criticize the playfield problems and decision making for sure. But separate that from and spare the guy criticism of his private life.

Probably more accurate.

This just in, people can care about multiple things at the same time.

Or should we wait until hurricane season is over and all the CEs ship before we ask/expect that JJP figure out and resolve these issues?

What about when the winter storms kick in? Should we wait till after winter? What about the volcano in Italy that erupted!?

What about the violence in Hong Kong?

Come on man. If we let things slide in our day to day because of world events we’d never hold anyone accountable for anything because something bigger is ALWAYS going on. (Caps inspired by Richie )

I live in one of the currently projected paths of the hurricane as do a handful of others posting here. I’ve prepared as best I can now it’s wait and see what happens mode. So pinside provides a bit of relief from that anxiety.

It’s kinda like buying a NiB pinball table in that sense. What’ll I get? A nice breeze or a complete unplanned house remodel? Who knows until it arrives!

Man the advertisers are getting good. Got this targeted add today for a gel that hardens when exposed to UV.

For 20 bucks I might get some just to try.

https://tech-ace.com/bd/US/x-15

If it works as advertised it might be easier to work with than superglue or nail polish for filling chipped areas.

If similar products already exist please share.

One guy in this thread already said he took it to his CC company and they took care of it to his satisfaction.

Easy? Convenient? No. Viable resolution for the committed and determined? Seems so.

Don’t let that happen man. Enjoy your games. Don’t keep em tight for the next person! I just played STNG to final frontier without sound (sound board died so waiting for my pinsound+ to arrive).

Not saying accept crap. But also saying if you got the game and it works PLAY IT!!!

Also, it’s been determined in at least one instance of PotC (pages back in this thread) that some of those unaffected are so because they own pre-release builds of the game that are not official production run builds. Thus they were likely finished via a different process.

Gonna drop out of this thread soon.

Glad for those that have found a resolution they are happy with.

I’ve bookmarked enough to know what to look for and what solutions have been tried and proposed.

Hung around hoping to hear something more definitive about JJP/Stern resolving the underlying issue. But seems it will simply be mileage may vary and buyer beware for all NiB except Spooky from here on out.

I say except Spooky because they came in here. Admitted they had an issue and claimed it’s been resolved going forward.

Last question. Did we determine if any CGC remake tables have had any reports of pooling?