(Topic ID: 249691)

Wonka LE Sling Post Chipping in one month!!

By rs812

5 months ago

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  • Latest reply 83 days ago by Pinhead1982
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2 key posts have been marked in this topic

Post #1403 Response from JJP from the Pinball Magazine podcast Posted by RobertWinter (4 months ago)

Post #1407 Transcribed response from JJP from the Pinball Magazine podcast Posted by RobertWinter (4 months ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#12 5 months ago

So JJP aren’t offering to return and refund a faulty game?

#64 5 months ago
Quoted from Crile1:

Spooky addressed the issue, found the issue, and no longer a problem for them. I think it was an issue on the mid late run games only.
I know my 151 had no issues. Absolutely no playfield issues that I know of reported on ACNC. My Alice playfield has no clear issues or chipping. So I do not think Spooky should be brought up in this thread. Buy with confidence from them.

Likewise here, no issues on my TNA or AMH.

#119 5 months ago
Quoted from woody76:

Not just JJP, Stern is having lots of issues as well.

Yep, it’s quite common in Sterns but never seen it result in chipping. Sterns clear is never quite as thick as JJP. I was told after the GB pf debacle that Stern we’re going back to thinner clear coats, and my early run Aerosmith has that. Thinner clear, no of issues at all including zero dimples.

Seems the clear has been getting thicker again recently. My IMDNLE has very thick glossy clear.

#150 5 months ago
Quoted from thePLAyNone:

My Batman 66 has chipping

Under a post caused by the pooling clear?

#155 5 months ago
Quoted from underlord:

Could this be a cure time issue for the pf’s?
Overzealous torque of screws? Too much clear?

All 3 I think, possibly combined with new environmentally friendly clear.

#461 5 months ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Bally Tuff-Coat playfields for the win. Just clean and wax occasionally with Wildcat #125 (Recommended by Bally) no chipping/paint adhesion problems. My nearly 49 year old Bally 4 Queens playfield still looks great. Clear coat seems overrated to me.

Diamond Coat for the win.

#462 5 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

This is exactly what I’ve been talking about. Thick clear coat take months to cure. If JJP were to order the PFs at least 6 months prior to assembly, my bet is the issues we are currently facing, would not be happening. GNR PFs should be ordered now and completed asap, to allow curing time before assembly of the first machine next year, as they are planning. Chipping will most like not be an issue then. JJP fanboys have been denigrating what has been said about this issue, to downplay and place blame on Mirco. It is typical poor planning on the part of JJP and they are solely responsible for their product quality. If a 3rd party is not up to snuff, JJP should switch. They are in control, no one else. Buyer beware, buying a product with so many known issues.

And you know all this how?

#464 5 months ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Welp, one day later and it's no longer "pooling," now it's "chipping." Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuk
This is seriously annoying. 5 weeks. Five freaking weeks.
[quoted image]

Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Welp, one day later and it's no longer "pooling," now it's "chipping." Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuk
This is seriously annoying. 5 weeks. Five freaking weeks.
[quoted image]

Ouch, this drama is unfolding in real-time like a slow motion car crash.

And I thought Ghost-Gate was a big deal.

#601 5 months ago

Guys, I’ve found the silver lining in this clearcoat pooling. Maybe now we can finally get rid of these....

766B08EC-8E38-4826-8DC0-D3AD17AEC1FF (resized).jpeg
Just set the game up, check the direction the clear pools on your Playfield, adjust level accordingly until the pool is even around all posts.

Gets rid of the ugly Level, saves manufacturers money. It’s a win win.

#647 5 months ago
Quoted from RichieWrench:

Stay Tuned - Will be posting tonight - Will post in my thread for the Willy Wonka CE and then back here - I have made my choice and did make my calls and have read ALOT of posts and talked with a few friends - Amazing what it going on here.
We will see how this all shakes out....
Stayed Tuned In............

If they’re not already, JJP should be listening when a customer like richiewrench cancels his CE order.

#682 5 months ago
Quoted from cosmokramer:

Not it there is a waiting list of people who would buy it in an instant if Richie passes

Seriously? There’s a waiting list for Wonka CE’s? No one even knows what the CE is yet. Hard to believe, but then again nothing surprises me in this hobby.

#723 5 months ago
Quoted from jeffro01:

but it's pretty comical and hysterical to see someone freak out over something that hasn't affected them. Yes yes everyone, flame me if you want but I can only go on what has actually affected me and I have absolutely zero reason to even question JJP or think that my WONKA CE will be anything less than absolute perfection.

I think you’re really missing the point here. Even though it hasn’t affected them, buyers are cancelling their orders because JJP have proven they won’t look after their customers if something does happen.

If you feel confident they will look after you for whatever reason, then good for you. But based on how they’re handling the issues up to date, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to hold off on an order until they come out with a clear statement on how they intend addressing games that have issues and how they plan on fixing it going forward.

#771 5 months ago

I’m still not convinced the art is the main culprit. Certainly not in the clear pooling.

I’ve had a number of recent Sterns that don’t have pooling but do have ball guides that have significantly sunk into clear leaving a noticeable channel in the clear. Didn’t affect anything, and wasn’t noticeable until you lifted the guide up, but was definitely a result of soft clear.

Maybe the soft clear combined with the twisting motion of the Star posts being installed is enough to also dislodge the paint.

#841 4 months ago
Quoted from ronaldvg:

Been following this for a long time and I also did not order Wonka. First JJP I did not order at all. Does not make a dent in the sales but it is the only thing I can do to make it clear that I am not accepting the bad quality and bad after sales. This is not in the spirit of JJP and it is sad to see that it eventually always boils down to money no mattter what the initial intentions of a company were.
But what puzzles me is this: times change, environmental laws change, everyting changes. But why do the playfields not change? I can think of several ways to make playfields completely differently than the "wood with ink on it" that the manufacturers keep clinging onto that would hold up much better than the current playfields. They would need no protectors, no cliffy's no nothing.
It is the same as with the clinging on to the DMD for so long, the manufacturers just do not want to change or are too set in their old ways to be able to think further than what they know. Very shortsighted if you ask me, because what they know has changed and they are not able to return to the old ways because of legislation. Instead of solving the problem, they just keep silent and keep on doing what they know, but does not work anymore.
Changing the playfield to something better does not take the soul out of pinball, it may just be that it could bring back the joy of it. Without the need for clearcoating there is also no worrying about the clearcoat.

I prefer a wood playfield and really hope they don’t move to other materials.

#897 4 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

That's why I questioned the response that the divot was the flipper alignment hole. Makes no sense.

That’s the upper right flipper on JP2. It’s has the post at the end to protect the flipper and force you to flip. Makes sense there would be a flipper alignment hole between the post hole and the tip of the flipper.

The post cops a beating which causes the clear to fracture and the alignment hole is an obvious weak point causing it to chip.

#898 4 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

The clear coat discussion was very informative .... the balance of the discussion was a bit of a joke....he was basically saying don't worry about a little chipping or wrinkling in your play field....that being said I'd probably say the same thing if that was my core business

Of course it doesn’t affect playability on location or in a comp. But as a collector you want your games looking perfect. The problem now is that since everyone is aware of it, it becomes another point of reference when selling your game to another collector. There’ll be an obvious preference for non chipped or pooled games.

#945 4 months ago
Quoted from gumnut01:

It’s insulting. Thank God my distributor did not talk like that about my issues.
I spent 2 months trying to solve all the problems with my machine’s playfield issues.
It is not an easy fix. Raising a sling with washers stuffs up the sling. It hits harder and causes airballs. Changing from thin posts to double star posts causes the same issue, the sling is now hitting harder. Only solution to dremmel the groove of the double posts so that the sling sits in the same position relative to the hammer.
Want to know another problem with changing posts? The inlanes are now tighter slowing down game play. So again dremmel grooves is needed.
Then you find empty holes for moving miniposts are developing finger sized waves around them. I had to cut bits of metal like home made cliffys and put rubber underneath.
Oh but wait every other post is rippling and chipping. Strip game down and put rubber under every post, especially mini posts.
My distributor actually said to the manufacturer it was not acceptable. Thank god I have a good distributor who looked after me and did not make fun of my trials.
Shame on you Zach for saying this crap. And shame on you Greg for backing him up. It is a shit storm and it needs to be fixed.
Edit: I really like you guys, but if you make fun of this issue, you are telling the manufacturers that it’s not that big a deal. I’m sure you both feel obsessive over some of your prized possessions.

Was wondering about the washer impact on the sling height.

Just heard the TWIP podcast and fully agree. His rant reeks of self interest.

#1006 4 months ago
Quoted from Agima2000:

The service is even underground.
I asked the JJP Google groups if there was a solution to the problem, they had a very quick fix for me.
Within 1 minute I was deleted from the group.
I've had all 4 JJP pinball machines so far, so I'm out now.

#1014 4 months ago
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

I've personally looked at 3 produced in the last 6 months (BM66 (mine), BM66 (Operator's) and a BK Premium) and all three had the chipping issue. That's pretty damning if you ask me.
The JP the operator just bought had humongous washers that looked like hell at the bottom of the sling posts. You don't suddenly start adding washers under sling posts for no reason at all.

I think it’s pretty clear some distributors have a tough time being objective about this issue. And fair enough, I’d probably be the same.

#1108 4 months ago
Quoted from ChippyWonka:

REPORT: JJP is going to announce their solution via podcast.
Which leaves one to ponder, how will we see Jack’s cartwheel punctuation after the “solution” is announced?

Just lol’d at your user name.

#1174 4 months ago

Just ignore norcalrealtor guys. Operators and comp/location players have always been unable to see the collector point of view when it comes to QC issues on these NIB games.

#1182 4 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

your an operator ... u buy games in the hope they bring you money.....once their beat or stop earning you sell them off and move onto the next title with most likely a little $ in your pocket. We buy games to keep in our homes and expect a quality product, along with reasonable customer service....its not our fault these manufacturers tailored their sales and marketing pitch to home owners (and raised the prices significantly). I'm not understanding why u think we shouldn't give a shit? The manufacturers came up with the business model and many of us have bought into it....it has nothing to do with not enjoying pinball...if we didn't enjoy we wouldn't be in the hobby. If I'm gonna fork out $10K for a game then it better perform, and not start falling apart in the first 30 days.

Cant resist a good carguement ....

The operator is like the car rental owner...….couldn't give a sh*t about the appearance - as long as it goes and earns.
The location player is like the car rental customer...…..couldn't give a sh*t about the appearance - as long as it goes.
The comp guy is the race car driver......couldn't give a sh*t about the appearance - as long as it performs.

The collector cares about all of it.....appearance, reliability, collectability, playability, replayability, re-saleability, performance etc etc

They've all got their different perspective and from their point of view they are right. But you don't see the car rental owner on collector car forums telling them to get over the chipping paint on the new Corvette release because its not important. (Or maybe you do - actually this is the internet - more than likely you do).

#1188 4 months ago
Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

Perhaps for some operators, but overall I think that's a misconception. Most pinball operators are pinball collectors, started as pinball collectors, and are among the most prudent NIB buyers. They see firsthand what happens on new pins after 1k/5k/10k+ plays while everyone else worries about what may happen after 100/300/500 plays. So, who better to ask for real-world opinions on QC? Carry on thinking Operators and techs don't get it, but their opinions carry way more weight to me.

No I get it NCR, just saying everyone's got different priorities. What's an issue for one group isn't necessarily for the other.

Quoted from o-din:

Not quite all of it when it comes to pinball.
The most important thing a pinball machine is designed to do as a coin operated commercial machine is to take quarters or dollar bills and I'm not sure many pinball collectors have explored, used, or even care about that aspect on the machines they own.

Used to be, but not nearly as much any more.

#1327 4 months ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:JJP is a joke. Shame on them.

But this letter is the same wording that Stern began using in their manuals after Ghostbusters ghosting.

Guaranteed the next edition of the manual will also mention pooling. We’re already hearing distributors talking the same when questioned about the pooling.

#1401 4 months ago
Quoted from drfrightner:

FYI GUYS... Jack did a podcast YESTERDAY and he talked about this issue. Go here and take a listen:
So go here and take a list and see if this answers anyone's questions.

Let me guess what he said.....

1408EDBB-2B90-45F8-82D1-2C1E0D77276E (resized).jpeg
#1424 4 months ago

Not surprised at all they’re not going to do anything unless there’s chipping/paint loss. Interesting they’ve told you not to remove the posts. Obviously that’s going to cause the clear to chip.

Does that mean if the clear chips when you remove posts that it’s not covered? Then you have to contact tech support before removing. How is tech support to do it without chipping? What about in 2 years when you want to strip and clean the Playfield?

#1551 4 months ago

Wouldn’t a single metal plate that covers the entire sling area be the ideal solution? Won’t look as good, but will stop the pooling problems.

#1557 4 months ago
Quoted from swinks:the unknown is how will the playfield clearcoat react to the pressure of a plate fitted under the posts - the problem could then be transferred out.

Hopefully it would give some rigidity and also disperse the pressure.

In any case, all these solutions aren’t addressing the real issue of faulty clear coat that hasn’t been an issue for 50 years.

#1692 4 months ago
Quoted from guard:

everytime I use my lawnmower it doesn't look as good,

First time I’ve heard a Lawnmowerguement used on Pinside. End of the Carguement once and for all? I think not.

#1718 4 months ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

On this topic I don't agree! DOWNVOTERS START YOUR ENGINES LOL
In response to this and Flynibus reply I think this is a key issue. If you are buying NIB its literally a crap shoot on what you get. Take my last purchase - MBR. a few of them came to the UK including my number matched game. So you pay your £8500, so does your buddy down the road. you get one with the problems, he doesn't and immediately you've lost a wedge of cash on an expensive item. Thats total nonsense and there is no way that should be the case.
Having watched CGC games be delivered here on Pinside; in my view they, CGC, suck on packaging the game to avoid damage. The games are brilliant but there are too many posts of games damaged in transit. I predicted a number of them coming to the UK would be damaged and a number of them were. Fearful my own game would be one of them. But to those buyers they didn't find that out until after they had the game. My game arrived in mint condition with no damage. If it hadn't done I'd have sent it back for either replacement or refund. (the dealer here is excellent and is sorting the situation out).
If you buy second user then for the most part you know what you are getting, or you can go inspect it play it and have a look at it. All of the MBR games that arrived that are damaged play fine but a couple of them have huge damage including one that has a massive dent in the armour where the glass slides in. The dealer here is exceptional and managing the problem for them (he has also has stated to JJP that he won't take any more games until this issue is resolved). But the games play fine so they should just accept that? I see no difference other than its simpler to swap out a bit on the cabinet than on a playfield- so what?!
In my view that's the **price for the manufacturers of being in the pinball business** Given a choice of a game without playfield issues and one with, no second user is buying the one with the playfield issues and irrespective if you plan to keep the game for a while or sell it for the next new thing is irrelevant; the games should come without damage on them. I can't think of another industry that would find this acceptable. Even the LCD folks gave up with their minimum pixel failure rate because it was bullshit too.
Whilst I have a lot of games, I'm not a collector, I'm a player and here in the UK there are few good places to play. I want my games to look and play great, I run four to six tournaments or meetings at my house; I stream my crap playing too! Folks come from all over the country to play; I also host three autistic charity events every year and again I want my games to play and look great, but I'm mostly concerned with the playfield I don't want to be explaining on stream some huge cornflake of damage at each post FFS! if the cabinet has a few dings I'm less worried about that than any playfield damage; and why I was super disappointed with TNA especially as it was non-trivial to get one to the UK. From the moment I played the proto I wanted TNA when they announced it was going to be built. Hell yes! So I bust a gut to figure out how to import it to the UK personally.
I'm not going to accept this as the new norm because 30 years of pinball history says it doesn't have to be the new normal. Those that think this issue is not a big deal I really struggle with, but when I look at that it's usually those that will never have to face this problem and I understand that's simply human nature.

Exactly. flynnibus criticizes NIB buyers for being over critical of their games and worrying over Playfield damage, yet in the same breath admits he has only ever bought one NIB game, instead preferring to buy used whereby he can check the condition of the game and let the NIB buyer “take the NIB hit”.

flynnibus it begs the question.....what NIB hit would a used buyer deduct for a chipped Playfield with paint missing over a non chipped one with no paint missing?

#1740 4 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Chips? Same way it’s been done for decades. Water thin CA, let it wick in, and use compression until dry. Touch up with acrylic if needed.
The key will be to see if the adhesion problems continue to inch their way further away from the contact spots. So far it seems like direct tight contact is the only part where the pfs are failing so far.

You’re seriously suggesting a NIB pinball buyer should be expected to touch up paint and clear on their PF after a few hundred games?

Ok, let’s assume (ridiculously) that they do, then what’s the NIB “price hit” for a touched up game?

#1752 4 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Not what I said - if you can't follow the conversation without interjecting your own distortions.. just scroll past.

You know full well that an experienced used game buyer like yourself is not going anywhere near any recent game with paint chipping unless it was offered at a significant discount. And even then I’d guess you still wouldn’t buy it.

#1755 4 months ago

The irony in this whole situation is that a large percentage of current NIB buyers only buy NIB because they don’t know how, don’t want to, or don’t have time to deal with many of the inherent problems that come with older used games.

1 week later
#1995 4 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

my IMDN and Munsters both need cleaned and i just don't even want to do it.....

Here’s a new theory to make you feel better WD.....if you never clean them, the build up of grime from flipper and rubber dust will protect the Playfield forever. I once bought an Indy500 that was on location and hadn’t been cleaned for years - the Playfield was literally black. Gave it a good clean and it literally looked like new underneath.

#2037 4 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

I canceled my JPLE order as this didn’t seem to have a remedy. Are you saying Stern is now offering populated Playfield swaps or playfields for pooling/chipping? Honestly asking as I would still like to get the game but Stern has been silent on the subject from what the distributor mentioned.

Stern has never made blanket statements about Playfield issues and what remedies will or won’t be negotiated. It’s always been a case by case thing. All I can say is I’ve never once been disappointed by Sterns and my distributors responses to legitimate problems. I’m sticking with my JPle with this knowledge- I see no reason it would be any different this time.

And I cant wait for JPle. Not going to let these issues kill my excitement for this game.

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