WOW lets unpack your comments here...

You say Stern took care of you instantly and JJP won't call you back, and fanboys won't admit the truth, blah, blah, blah... with all my machines I've only had ONE problem ever and I called JJP. They sent me a replacement part the next day and I was back in business. I had two different techs call me back. With Stern because they've gone SUPER cheap with the rail system they have now, my entire Munsters playfield fell into the machine. The playfield became wedged into a bolt inside the cabinet after it fell just collapsed into the cabinet. I called Stern NEVER got a call back not ONE! I called my dealer and he told me this has happened a few times let him know if I need help. So I had to get a couple guys to help me get it out, had to take half the damn machine apart to get it out. The entire playfield just FELL INTO the cabinet... what Stern has done with these new rails, c'mon they're not even 1/10th as good as the older machines. Or another way to put it not 1/10th as good as JJP's.

Either way we fixed it ourselves but the bottom of that playfield is seriously damaged where it become wedged on a bolt... it dug itself into the playfield. Then we had to add spacers to the rails, we had to bend them out more so this wouldn't happen again. Still the playfield doesn't lock in like the old machines... I wonder why?

Stern is a giant in the industry and I say good for them. JJP is also a giant in the industry and good for them as well. Both companies make mistakes and hopefully in most cases they own up to them and fix things. I'm merely sharing my most recent Stern story as an example this all goes both ways, and probably across every company when metal balls fly around a piece of painted wood. I bought a brand new Beatles after 10 plays the pop targets BROKE totally cracked cheap thin plastic ... nothing like the old day. I had to order a part and replace... oh well. I guess that's pinball.

As for putting Stern and JJP in the same discussion I agree but don't agree. I don't agree because EVERY pinball company should be put in the same discussion because they're all making pinball games. Every company Stern, JJP to everyone between should be held to the exact same standard end of story.

Why I would agree, because these are two totally different companies, one is making games faster than lightning (STERN), and the other company takes twice maybe three times as long to develop games because their games are so different, unique, and custom. You can only compare a Stern and a JJP in the fact they're both pinball games. JJP hands down makes the more detailed, high tech, original game... its not even close. I like Stern to as I've bought them, and will continue to buy them if I like the theme of the game. The single most high tech, most original, game ever made was POTC JJP and I would challenge ANYONE to dispute that anyone, and Wonka is a close second. That doesn't mean that's why you should or shouldn't like a JJP over a Stern. Personally I think the least themed game I've ever seen is Spooky TNA, but there are people here that love that thing. Who am I to say you shouldn't like what you like, you can like whatever you want. So why are there so many people who tell you almost on a daily basis not to like a JJP game?

I'm sure there are people with problems with all the companies but it seems like JJP gets picked on the most by far... talk about fanboys. I think if JJP found a cure for cancer they would beaten over the head. If you love pinball you want all manufacturers to succeed, thrive, prosper, and take care of issues with their products the same no matter Stern to the start up. Lets be fair to everyone. Lastly, let me say that there are pros and cons to every supplier. JJP probably does have more issues with their games because they just pour more into them, every game is trying to be custom, that is always going to create more problems. Until JJP decides to streamline the design, remove some of the uniqueness from each game, you will probably experience more problems with a JJP than a Stern. With that being said do I want JJP to stop being JJP absolutely NOT! I don't want JJP to be more like Stern even it meant fewer problems but I would like JJP to settle on more common parts across all their new and future games. I want all pinball companies to learn from their mistakes and anything and everything they do into the future to be better than they were before. Stern has the most experience no one is denying that... but every time I have even the minor issue my first thought isn't to run to pinside and start a thread about it. People should deal with their their supplier first and foremost your issue is with them and no one else. Every supplier deserves the opportunity to deal with you directly to solve all problems.

glad i canceled my CE would of felt like crap seeing that on a $12,000 machine

I feel like this issue has been going on for a while.
Should not be difficult to figure it out and rectify it.

This is the reason they need to address this asap.. I'm sure they will get around to it. Question is when.

I'm completely puzzled they didn't kick mirco to the curb, when they must have known what he did to pirates.

Now they are dealing with the same shit and people will have zero confidence buying their next title.

It makes me really sad. I really love their designs.

How do I lay the chip down and minimize the chance of it spreading?

WHAT does this mean????????????

I think it means, what is the recommended way to replace the chip (if he has it) and try to prevent it from getting worse.

My course of action, if I didn't get better advice, would be to see if I can place it exactly where it was before, and cover with mylar.

Water-thin super glue to adhere it to the playfield, then a layer of clear mylar above.

Yeah about Stern sending those playfields out... Might want to talk to some of the owners. I know of one LE owner who had ghosting in the first 20 games and it took a year of fighting stern to get the pf replaced.

If you go the super glue route make sure to use the absolute smallest amount possible (and then try to make it less than that). And don't apply directly from the tube, apply with a pin or toothpick to reduce the possibility of spreading the glue. My .02

Both actually, chipping at the hole. Easy to cover with a cliffy.
Wear on the playfield from the ball ejecting onto it. Only put mylar over it to stop more from happening.

When it comes to these playfield issues, there are two facts we have:

Stern has done populated playfield swaps for free, for customers with this kind of issue. (even if in some cases people had to really fight for it)

JJP has not.

And it kills me to say that because I love JJP machines.

I’m shocked that anyone kept buying new games after 2016....but this hobby is super F’ing odd now, so keep buying unfinished, untested, poorly made $10k+ games, I dunno!

Crazy thing is, I remember sitting in a panel (as an audience member) at California Extreme 8 years ago where Stern reps were talking about how pinball was really struggling as a platform and the future was uncertain so next moves by any company wanting to remain relevant had to be deliberate and on point.

Fast forward to now. Pinball has picked up considerably (maybe in part due to Pinball FX and Pinball Arcade reviving broad interest and partly old favorites coming back as remakes). And you have innovators like JJP redefining what one can expect from pinball.

The Apple tree pop bumpers in WoZ, Flying Monkey, melting witch, spinning house... all this in one game! And that one game being my first exposure to JJP. I was honestly blown away.

But then to have distributors not feel comfortable selling them. Multiple generations of tables with same problems. It’s unanimous within this thread that for certain tables specific used runs are the way to go. It’s a dominant theme in this thread that NiB is an expensive lottery.

I get problems due to new tech and taking chances with innovative physics and mechs. I’ll happily take those risks for the fun factor.

But the paint not sticking to the playfield? Clear coat puddling? My basic expectation is that the board will hold up to home use in a proper climate controlled environment.

I know they use different processes now. But my problem is I shouldn’t have to know, or care.

It’s like still making cars but suddenly loosing the special formula to make proper wheels.

What is my point? I’m afraid for pinball. If folks are scared to buy new tables. The read won’t be that it was quality issues.

The read will be the pinball fad has died down again.

Companies will shut down production. And current inventory will be all she wrote.

To another posters point, I don’t want JJP, Stern, Etc to shutter their doors.

I want them to think again about the long term, past their current sales, about the future they want for pinball and the roles their current products and services are playing in preserving it.

This renewed interest can fade back into the shadows just as quickly as it fired up.

At least two are outperforming:
Bader seems to be doing much better since their initial WoZ days. No ink adhesion or clear pooling problems. Unfortunately terrible output speed. Can't scale AFAIK.

CGC has no ink adhesion or clear pooling, but they do have brittle clear issues on some PFs. Still, better than JJP and Stern on balance

Mirco is currently trash. The part I don't get is they HAD the playfield "secret sauce" dialed in at the end of the ECLE WoZ era and ALL the Hobbit era which had almost completely trouble-free playfields, then they they CHANGED SOMETHING (who knows what?) and produced brittle Dialed Ins followed by pooling jjPotC and Wonka with ink adhesion problems.

You forgot the part about the booming economy. lol

However as a wise man once said, what goes up, must come down.

You should be able to find a HUO ECLE for $7500ish within driving distance then if you're patient.

Moot. Moot point - as in, doesn't matter, irrelevant.

That’s true. More folks employed with disposable income certainly plays a role.

Whatever the reasons I just feel Stern, JJP and all cannot assume folks will continue to put up with this kind of value uncertainty for their dollars.

Especially if the economy takes a tumble and/consumer confidence in the product wanes.

I’m patient. I have more time than money anyway.

Exactly!

yeah...but there's nothing quite like getting taken down by pussy!

The only problem is playfield protectors suck. No thank you.

And MASSIVELY more harmful chemicals were used in 1950-late 1990 playfields with no ill-effects reported as a result that I'm aware of, and much better durability.

Well... Let's not go THAT far.

They will beguilingly replace a PF for ghosting or pooling... if the customer is a serious squeaky wheel.
That said; if the customer doesn't demand it... they have said that ghostingand pooling is part of the "enjoyment" of pinball.

Stern has been "better" than JJP at this... but even they want to ship crap and have us "accept it".

In regards to all the comments re insufficient curing times before JJP populated the pfs. I don’t own any JJP’s but i’ve done PF swaps with Mirco products. Before i populated the first one i asked Mirco directly how much time i should wait. Based on his response i’m led to believe there is more to this than curing time - more in the camp of something wrong with mix and they won’t ever fully cure. I dunno - not an expert. Please note i’m just sharing info on the cure time rhetoric - i am not diminishing the concerns of any JJP owner nor am I endorsing Mirco pf’s. Not a Stern fanboy either. I’ll stick with my B/W’s and know in my heart if the company still existed they’d be fuckin up things too!

DE1475B3-CE86-4130-90F0-8D81EFC2356E (resized).png

I'm shocked that these things are considered impressive. Sure, it was more than Stern was putting in its games in 2011...but bumper toppers? They don't really do anything. Monkey? Magnet on a track...a trick done better on a game like Bram Stoker's Dracula. The witch is just a sculpt that moves up and down...Dr. Evil & Iron Monger do the same thing, except you can actually hit them. Spinning House? Just a thing that spins on a motor.

WOZ's whole reason for existing is because in 2010, home buyers did NOT want Sterns. They thought they were cheap and had bad photoshop art....They weren't selling at $3500 NIB. Jack made WOZ to sell something to his Pinball Sales customers. A widebody game, with lots of mechs, family friendly theme, new tech like a large LCD and color changing LED playfield lighting...for $6500!

Anyway, almost every single 90's game and their features are far more amazing than anything new, and will blow you away if you haven't exprienced them. Dr. Who's time expander, Whitewater's crazy ramps and divertors, Dracula's mist ball, MM's castle, etc. All of the best mechanical features ever made already exist, in games of impeccable quality, that have stood the test of time and are awesome in a home collection.

It's fascinating to see how tastes have changed, and to see home buyers jumping over each other to buy Sterns for double the price. Marketing as a "lifestyle brand" truly worked.

This biggest problem with the Mircos (and they're both bad) is the ink adhesion problem. If the ink isn't grabbing the wood, everything after that will fail, too. Add to that the clear is pooling and you have a double-whammy of suck that Mirco better get serious about fixing or his product reputation will be completely destroyed.

You missed the most important part of the original post about WoZ toys: "All in ONE game."

It was, and remains, impressive, and no B/W/Stern touches it for that.

But they did eventually swap it. They dealt with it, albeit a pita, as I've said multiple times. And I have talked to a few pinsiders that went through the process.

Has there been a single populated JJP POTC pf swap under warranty?

Is there really a single POTC that doesn't have pf problems?

Both answers equal zero.....beating a dead horse here...truly can't believe this is happening...

No thanks. To all of that.

And sometimes we later learn that these harmful things weren’t actually harmful or were not near as harmful as they were made out to be. But that’s discussion for another thread.

I'd rather have less toys that do cool things, than a lot of toys that do nothing. Take the tree toppers off, the monkey out (they did), the spinning house, the witch...it's the same exact game. The "toys" aren't actually mechs that interact with the ball in any way. IMO something like Stern's POTC ship is far more impressive. Interacts with the player, has multiple levels of animation, and then reveals a new shot.

You obviously didnt have a playfield clearcoat issue because if you did they wouldn't have fixed it. You can try and pump up JJP all you want but there are lots of people right now that have playfield issues and JJP is telling them all to get f*cked! I guess maybe these customers must have whined too much and JJP treated them like children huh? I would never buy a JJP game because of the way they are screwing their customers. I honestly don't know how Jack could show his face at a pinball show anymore.

That's more than just a bit over the top dramatic, don't you think?

Jeff

If I'd spent 13k to get a Wonka CE... shipped to my door... and it had soft clear coat... I'd be just as dramatic.
Actually; no I wouldn't... I'd be pissed and be telling them to come pick this p.o.s up.

This whole thread reminds me of my first Playfield restoration:
https://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=89593

where I didn't have any experience with the two part auto-clear I used. I put it on too thick... and probably didn't use enough or too much hardener. The result was middle layers of clear not being fully cured:
3620836347_1b52165673_o (resized).jpg
Eventually; it did cure...months after assembly. But it sure is ugly.
One of these days; maybe I'll sand it down and put a final coat on it.

Luckily; this was a learning experience for me... so I didn't make that error on future projects.

How many choices are there for businesses that do playfield clearcoat? Someone ambitious should start their own company.

No not really. What's dramatic is my friends that are not rich that saved up their hard earned money for their POTC games and they got chipping playfields and JJP wont replace them. They are feeling pretty dramatic right now and devistated just to be honest with you. Its sad man and very wrong.

Did any of them pay with an Amex card?

They should have stuck with mac n cheese.

Think about the children!!!

Not sure to be honest with you.

I like how for each individual mech you had to mention a different game having something similar.

My point was that the game was numerous mechs and custom finishing touches all found in one machine.

No mods. Not just 1 or two gimmicks. Stock with multiple gimmicks.

You got my point.

No idea why you got downvoted for this.

They set a mood and paint an environment. A living one even.

If that sort of thing wasn’t wanted or valued then the modding community wouldn’t be so active.

Ask them.
Hopefully, they have buyer’s protection or may be able to file a chargeback.