Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

I have an idea. Why don't they just pay HEP a pile of money to fly to their location, audit their process and provide a resolution?
Sorry for those of you having issues.

Quoted from dashv:

Replying from another thread here because it’s more appropriate for this topic.

Yeah, I found and read this entire thread with my wife after talking to a couple distributors about Munsters (bought a new Premium with all the upgrades) and trying to place a pre-order for Wonka CE and the Red 75th Anniversary WoZ.
One distributor didn’t want to take a preorder for the JJP tables at all and strongly encouraged me to think twice about JJP tables in general due to basic, repeated, and systemic quality control problems he’s observed with their tables.
He told me about the major headaches he has had trying to support his buyers of NiB JJP tables and how JJP just leaves him and his folks hanging while they kick out yet another new table with the same old issues. One dealer didn’t deal with them at all due to problems they saw others having. Another would grudgingly accept my preorder (tables were listed on their site) but cautioned I should be patient and expect to need to do some work beyond what is normally expected for a NiB pin. Another dealer had been a fan and supplier until pirates and these other debacles made it hell for them to justify selling and supporting.
After hearing the same story from multiple places I looked up the WoZ and Wonka threads here on pinside and I’m blown away at the type and number of JJP Playfield problems.
WoZ played great. So great I was ready to buy it on impulse. Based on that and Wonka’s theme alone I was
Ready to pre-order a Wonka CE.
But I’m not comfortable paying an electric cars worth of money for two tables that may have playfield curing/art problems with less than 100 plays and no support.
2 out of 3 distributors I talked to said if I had playfield issues of this kind with a Stern first, they are much more rare. Second Stern will usually swap it out.
(I didn’t think to ask the first distributor I talked to.)
Heartbroken because WoZ was a fun play. From what I’m reading and even the distributors admit, Wonka is a good play too. Possibly JJPs best. Just don’t expect it to be finished (code) and don’t expect the playfields to last half as long as tables from back in the day, or a NiB Chicago Gaming, or NiB Stern at half the price.
Just the info I have gathered all second hand.
Take with a pinch of salt.
If ya’ll have info that particular runs of WoZ are free and clear (see what I did there). I’d love to know what to look for.
Wonka CE isn’t out yet so who knows what state that will ship in.
I have to assume based on their track record no material improvements/changes to build/finish quality.

Quoted from mnpinball:

Probably the most important quote in this thread on why clears are now water based and the issues that go hand in hand with it. Stern playfields are pretty decent up until about 2015, after that you started seeing clearcoat issues and quality control issues etc.
“Laquers went away due to the high VOC content and rather dangerous chemicals involved. Laquers cure by evaporation of the solvent carriers, which releases dangerous toxins like toluene into the air. Non catalyzed enamels also dry by solvent evaporation, though the toxins are less. But the trend went to catalyzed urethanes which cure by crosslinking the polymers in the paint, giving a much more durable finish as well as NOT releasing solvents into the atmosphere. Modern automotive paints, at least in factories, are also primarily waterborne, rather than solvent-borne, with even lower VOC content when sprayed. Unfortunately, waterborne paints suffer from adhesion problems as there are no solvents to bind them properly to the substrates (generally electrostatically applied epoxy primer) this causes most of the paint delmination problems you see on so many newer cars.”
Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/automotive/994486-when-why-did-automakers-quit-using.html#ixzz5x9ZsEpQC

Quoted from mnpinball:

Probably the most important quote in this thread on why clears are now water based and the issues that go hand in hand with it. Stern playfields are pretty decent up until about 2015, after that you started seeing clearcoat issues and quality control issues etc.
“Laquers went away due to the high VOC content and rather dangerous chemicals involved. Laquers cure by evaporation of the solvent carriers, which releases dangerous toxins like toluene into the air. Non catalyzed enamels also dry by solvent evaporation, though the toxins are less. But the trend went to catalyzed urethanes which cure by crosslinking the polymers in the paint, giving a much more durable finish as well as NOT releasing solvents into the atmosphere. Modern automotive paints, at least in factories, are also primarily waterborne, rather than solvent-borne, with even lower VOC content when sprayed. Unfortunately, waterborne paints suffer from adhesion problems as there are no solvents to bind them properly to the substrates (generally electrostatically applied epoxy primer) this causes most of the paint delmination problems you see on so many newer cars.”
Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/automotive/994486-when-why-did-automakers-quit-using.html#ixzz5x9ZsEpQC

Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:

I know exactly what you're saying, Jason, but I will say this. I've got a local buddy shop owner that's been clearing my playfields for the last 5 years or so. All of them have been done with water based clears. In fact, one of the last jobs I did was to wire the oscillating fans in his booths which are necessary to dry water based paints and clears as opposed to the straight line fans used with solvent based paints and clears. He's done dozens of them for me and not a one has any of the issues I've seen with the newer playfields.

Quoted from Black_Knight:

Most CCs have a maximum purchase protection payout of $1,000, so I'm not sure this is the right direction to go here.
Your best bet is to buy a used one you can inspect, or wait till they figure out the issues on the assembly line.

Quoted from cooked71:

Yep, it’s quite common in Sterns but never seen it result in chipping. Sterns clear is never quite as thick as JJP. I was told after the GB pf debacle that Stern we’re going back to thinner clear coats, and my early run Aerosmith has that. Thinner clear, no of issues at all including zero dimples.
Seems the clear has been getting thicker again recently. My IMDNLE has very thick glossy clear.

Quoted from snaroff:

I never heard that. We all know this isn't "rocket science". For years, PF's didn't exhibit these problem after so little use. My 15 years old LOTR has over 10k plays and the PF looks gorgeous. Same with my TRON...still looks awesome after 6 years. SOMEONE knows what has changed. If not, hire folks like Chris Hutchins and Ron Kruzman to advise you! (when you get a PF from them it doesn't suck
It's not just clearcoat issues...it's sloppy wood preparation. Check out the wood grain on my IMDN Premium. Distributors say it's the "new normal"...just the luck of the draw. Considered purchasing a BM66LE recently from a buddy and his PF had awful wood grain issues as well. Ended up purchasing a BM66 Premium from another local collector because the PF didn't have the wood grain issue.
Hard not to be cynical...probably all comes down to time & money. Would be very interesting to know the profit margin on PF's...[quoted image]

Quoted from Black_Knight:

Most CCs have a maximum purchase protection payout of $1,000, so I'm not sure this is the right direction to go here.
Your best bet is to buy a used one you can inspect, or wait till they figure out the issues on the assembly line.

Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:

I know exactly what you're saying, Jason, but I will say this. I've got a local buddy shop owner that's been clearing my playfields for the last 5 years or so. All of them have been done with water based clears. In fact, one of the last jobs I did was to wire the oscillating fans in his booths which are necessary to dry water based paints and clears as opposed to the straight line fans used with solvent based paints and clears. He's done dozens of them for me and not a one has any of the issues I've seen with the newer playfields.

Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:

I know exactly what you're saying, Jason, but I will say this. I've got a local buddy shop owner that's been clearing my playfields for the last 5 years or so. All of them have been done with water based clears. In fact, one of the last jobs I did was to wire the oscillating fans in his booths which are necessary to dry water based paints and clears as opposed to the straight line fans used with solvent based paints and clears. He's done dozens of them for me and not a one has any of the issues I've seen with the newer playfields.

Quoted from PinMonk:

Pooling often leads to chipping

Quoted from underlord:

Bryan, how long did you and your painter allow for drying time with the fans? an hour? a day?

Quoted from jeffro01:

What distributors are you talking to? Yeah I know you can't really answer that... That being said, I have both a WoZ 75th and a POTC CE and all I've ever had to do to WoZ is add a cliffy for the munchkin play field (edge can get beat up by airballs) and adjust some VUKs over the couple of years I've had it and 2K+ games played on it. Outstanding game although I would't buy the YBR, it's a rip off IMHO... My POTC CE has required a number of things, tweaks if you will, but it's by far the most popular game in the house and has nearly eclipsed the WoZ in number of plays despite only having it 8 months. I haven't found any play field issues yet on either (about to do a complete cleaning of both so we'll see). I'll fully concede that just because I've had a good experience doesn't mean others have, no doubt... What I can tell you is for the issues I have had (other than the cliffy on the munchkin play field), JJP tech support has been phenomenal.
Still in on my Wonka CE order but whether I go through with it depends entirely on what the final CE package looks like and not any play field issues others are experiencing.
Just some food for thought...
Jeff

Quoted from snaroff:

Not surprised. And I'm sure HEP and Kruzman are restoring PF's without the defects mentioned in this thread.
I'm sure it all comes down to time & money.

Quoted from dashv:

Encouraging. I’m not trying to bag on JJP. Honestly painful to see all the issues.
Was blown away when 3 separate companies in the same day either said they were walking away or keeping back.
I know it sounds sketchy with me not naming names but I’m not because I don’t want JJP retaliating against these folks or holding back inventory. They still have a few die hard customers waiting on their pre-orders or open issues.
Ideally JJP should fix the underlying problems that lead to these situations. Maybe they are and it just takes time to see.
The dealers I’ve talked to simply do not have confidence these games will hold up.
I am encouraged by your own personal experience. If there was some way for me to know what made yours special and I could verify I got one made similarly I would happily pull the trigger.
WoZ was fun as hell to play. I wanted the upcoming Red 75th that still has the flying money. Wonka looks to be fun too.
I honestly want these games in my home. Just not with a playfield that’s never gonna cure.
Following this thread has given me a good understanding of why all this stuff may be happening.
I’m sticking around and commenting in hopes that JJP is watching and working on it. Also hoping to be here when we learn if/when the issues start clearing up or at least have found ways to identify affected playfields. Prior to purchase.

Quoted from jimwe5t:

They have four legs don’t they

Quoted from Lermods:

There has to be a warranty on the playfields sold to jjp if there is a manufacturer defect. No business would buy parts without some recourse. the curing time should be on the manufacturers side as no playfields should be shipped until fully cured. Since it’s only happening on post areas, seems there may be a gray area of whether it’s the install of the posts or the clearcoat. I didn’t think stern used Mirco so if that’s true, to see it on Beatles is a bit odd.

Quoted from dashv:

If ya’ll have info that particular runs of WoZ are free and clear (see what I did there). I’d love to know what to look for.
Wonka CE isn’t out yet so who knows what state that will ship in.
I have to assume based on their track record no material improvements/changes to build/finish quality.

Quoted from snaroff:

Not surprised. And I'm sure HEP and Kruzman are restoring PF's without the defects mentioned in this thread.
I'm sure it all comes down to time & money.

Quoted from JY64:

You expect a new populated playfield for maybe LOL

Quoted from jimwe5t:

Have had zero issues with nearly a dozen NIB purchased Sterns. Not sure why you’re putting Stern in the same category as JJP? Purchased a NIB JJP with no issues as well, but that table had been in the box for months, so clear coat was fully dried/cured.

Quoted from PinMonk:

Buy a 2nd year and later ECLE WoZ either with the 2.0 lighting upgrade already done or add the 2.0 lighting and you are golden.

Quoted from dashv:

ECLE? Forgive my n00b-ness.
The new 75th Red has such a nice topper. But those aren’t out yet right?

Quoted from dashv:

ECLE? Forgive my n00b-ness.
The new 75th Red has such a nice topper. But those aren’t out yet right?

Quoted from PinMonk:

Emerald City LE, the sparkly green armor version, not the stainless steel standards that came later. The 75th reds have been out for years. They're re-running them, but there's speculation it may be without the monkey mech, which they took out on the YBR ones, and that would be a huge fail.
Get a nice HUO ECLE with 2.0 lighting or 1.0 lighting and upgrade it to 2.0 immediately and you're golden. Best of all worlds, a direct-print cabinet unavailable on any other run, and about 4 grand cheaper than a new YBR and thousands less than a new 75th re-run that may or may not be gimped.

Quoted from PtownPin:

That would be the ultimate WOZ

Quoted from swanng:

How about allowing the playfields to completely cure and outgas before populating them?

Quoted from Extraballz:

I highly doubt this is the issue even though so many keep saying it. JJP would have fixed this issue if it was just curing time. If the mix/process is not right the clear will NEVER fully cure. I would say this is closer to the problem than curing time. Let’s just say Mirco wants everyone to think it is curing time to get him off the hot seat. I believe it’s his process that is the problem....

Quoted from DanDanDAN:

Mirco does not make PFs for us.

Quoted from PinMonk:

But yeah, Mirco made at least half or more of the total AP playfields out there currently

Quoted from DanDanDAN:

I don't have the exact numbers but less than half of the Houdini PFs and none of the Oktoberfest PFs

Quoted from pcprogrammer:

Maybe the paint just bonds better with the clearcoat then the wood - so when it chips the art just goes with it.

Quoted from JodyG:

Someone should take a heat gun to the area of the playfield under the apron on one of these soft games. I am curious if an additional heat cure would harden the soft clear coat.

Quoted from Psw757:

Straight from the horses mouth(JJP) regarding getting a populated playfield.
Not even possible according to them. The replacement PF’s they are offering for the incredible offer of $550 plus shipping are suffering from the same issue as well.
Go check the POTC thread, several of us have been trying to negotiate a better offer for those with chipping for at least 3-4 months no with zero movement by JJP.
Really disappointing to say the least.

Quoted from jimwe5t:

Why on earth would anyone in their right mind buy from JJP if this is the way they handle customers???

Quoted from Psw757:

The chipping on POTC is widespread at the slings and outlane movable post holes(I lane and E lane for some).
Correct, discounted unpopulated PF was the official offer. $550 plus shipping so basically their cost. These should be free but I also offered $275 to split the cost risk with them and they balked at the idea.
It has been reported by a couple people that did accept the $550 offer that the new PF didn’t pass the scratch test and appears to be soft as well.

Quoted from jimwe5t:

Why on earth would anyone in their right mind buy from JJP if this is the way they handle customers???

Quoted from Psw757:

Don’t businesses that outsource work for components have some sort of insurance to guard against defective parts?
Just because they signed off on them when they accepted delivery with nothing installed doesn’t mean they weren’t defect free.

Quoted from jeffro01:

Because their games are awesome and not all of us are suffering from these issues? I'm not giving them a pass here as I have said over and over their handling of this issue is simply wrong. However, their overall customer support is top notch.
Jeff

Quoted from Psw757:

Don’t businesses that outsource work for components have some sort of insurance to guard against defective parts?
Just because they signed off on them when they accepted delivery with nothing installed doesn’t mean they weren’t defect free.

Quoted from Who-Dey:

Pooling doesnt warrant a replacement, chipping does. That's the difference.

Quoted from Psw757:

I agree and their general customer service is pretty good but I’ve had it very good with Stern too.
This is a big problem and is where you can really shine as a company but there are some seriously bad decisions being made by these guys. Really, something has changed over there and it ain’t good.

Quoted from jimwe5t:

Why are people trying to pass the buck here? This is the responsibility of JJP period, not a third party. Our money is spent with JJP directly and they have the responsibility of a warranty. No one else does. JJP is the one that takes our unbelievably high price dollars of $7,500 to $12,500.00. Still can’t believe those outrageous prices!!!

Quoted from kidchrisso:

My Oktoberfest playfield looks great....no issues. Who did them?