(Topic ID: 249691)

Wonka LE Sling Post Chipping in one month!!


By rs812

3 months ago



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#201 3 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

The main difference here is in the rare playfield issue with Stern, they replace the playfield no issues. JJP only sends out washer kit to hide the problem, not replace the playfield.

Not always. I sent them pictures of the pooling on the one here, but no replacement was offered.

#202 3 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Not always. I sent them pictures of the pooling on the one here, but no replacement was offered.

Pooling doesnt warrant a replacement, chipping does. That's the difference.

#203 3 months ago

could it just be they are tightened too much from factory?

MJR

#204 3 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Pooling doesnt warrant a replacement, chipping does. That's the difference.

Pooling often leads to chipping as we have seen (including on the Iron Maiden that had just pooling and now has a chip).

And Stern has replaced at least some Beatles playfields with pooling, so there's that.

#205 3 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

The main difference here is in the rare playfield issue with Stern, they replace the playfield no issues. JJP only sends out washer kit to hide the problem, not replace the playfield.

Not always true with stern eaither unfortunately...

#206 3 months ago

Sorry to see this continued issue with JJP playfields I swapped out the posts on my POTC to double star posts as soon as I saw early chipping starting. I was going to order Wonka LE, but changed my mind and went with and Alice Cooper instead and have no regrets whatsoever. Interestingly, I don’t see any swelling or chipping on any of the posts on my Hobbit or WOZ. I would dread undertaking a playfield swap on one of these beasts. Hope there’s an acceptable solution for those impacted.

0CE2BEE5-C843-46B0-97FC-7D1C437FE874 (resized).jpegB18A0969-F550-49E6-A541-33458FC67384 (resized).jpeg
#207 3 months ago
Quoted from darkryder:

Sorry to see this continued issue with JJP playfields I swapped out the posts on my POTC to double star posts as soon as I saw early chipping starting. I was going to order Wonka LE, but changed my mind and went with and Alice Cooper instead and have no regrets whatsoever. Interestingly, I don’t see any swelling or chipping on any of the posts on my Hobbit or WOZ. I would dread undertaking a playfield swap on one of these beasts. Hope there’s an acceptable solution for those impacted.[quoted image][quoted image]

Interesting that spooky just cut out the art in the areas where the posts hit the PF. Maybe they still have ink adhesion worries and are just doing a workaround?

#208 3 months ago

I've only read the first 2 pages of comments so far, but the Corvette analogy is spot on. In my other hobby, high end audio, issues much smaller than anything I see in pinball would not be acceptable and manufacturers would have to address them. (however the resale value of pinball is outstanding vs. audio) I was thinking about a NIB machine but am definitely now on the sidelines. Has any other material than plywood ever been used for a playfield?

#209 3 months ago
Quoted from Vdrums:

I've only read the first 2 pages of comments so far, but the Corvette analogy is spot on. In my other hobby, high end audio, issues much smaller than anything I see in pinball would not be acceptable and manufacturers would have to address them. (however the resale value of pinball is outstanding vs. audio) I was thinking about a NIB machine but am definitely now on the sidelines. Has any other material than plywood ever been used for a playfield?

No reasons to stay on the sidelines. I’ve purchased many Stern machines without issue.

Changing from traditional plywood (used for nearly a century) to something else, would be like no longer using slate for pool tables.

#210 3 months ago

Incredible after all these years, we have problems that just didn't exist before.

Thought I better check my 1954 Gottlieb Dragonette

On a serious note the playfield is 65 years old and looks better than most of my modern games!

Not sure how long these current playfields are going to last for....

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#211 3 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Interesting that spooky just cut out the art in the areas where the posts hit the PF. Maybe they still have ink adhesion worries and are just doing a workaround?

That idea makes a good deal of sense.

#212 3 months ago
Quoted from wesman:

That idea makes a good deal of sense.

Makes it look like a much older playfield layout. I don't really like it and would prefer full art, but if it's that or art chipping off, I'll take that.

#213 3 months ago
Quoted from Vdrums:

I've only read the first 2 pages of comments so far, but the Corvette analogy is spot on. In my other hobby, high end audio, issues much smaller than anything I see in pinball would not be acceptable and manufacturers would have to address them. (however the resale value of pinball is outstanding vs. audio) I was thinking about a NIB machine but am definitely now on the sidelines. Has any other material than plywood ever been used for a playfield?

Also been thinking about this, why not a non-flexible material. there must be composites today, that can be absolutely still and thus enable harder epoxis and polyurethanes.

That said they managed to solve theese problems 30 years ago, so why not now?

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#214 3 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

The main difference here is in the rare playfield issue with Stern, they replace the playfield no issues. JJP only sends out washer kit to hide the problem, not replace the playfield.

Good lord, I’ve never seen someone talk with so much authority but be completely wrong every single time....

#215 3 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Stern’s being mentioned here is by JJP fanboys, to lessen the severity of the JJP chipping issues. Maybe long ago Stern had a few issues, but as f3honda4me said, no issues on current or recent.

Beatles was less than a year ago. Try again.

#216 3 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Interesting that spooky just cut out the art in the areas where the posts hit the PF. Maybe they still have ink adhesion worries and are just doing a workaround?

That's what I figure the reason is. When my friend got his ACNC the first thing I noticed was that they cut out the art around the slings, and as a TNA owner I knew exactly why lol. It's a better route to go given the shit show the potc sling issues caused. Though with TNA Spooky was super responsive and helpful, unlike JJP seemed to be with Pirates.

#217 3 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Stern has done it for quite a few people but it looks like JJP won't do it, which is one of the reasons that i would never even consider buying a game off of them.

Okay...So I.am asking this now.....

Has anyone ever got an a populated playfield that has had chipping issues.

Because in would just send my whole game back and file a dispute with the card company because at least there u have rights and protection. But that is if u paid with credit card.

#218 3 months ago
Quoted from RichieWrench:

Okay...So I.am asking this now.....
Has anyone ever got an a populated playfield that has had chipping issues.
Because in would just send my whole game back and file a dispute with the card company because at least there u have rights and protection. But that is if u paid with credit card.

Straight from the horses mouth(JJP) regarding getting a populated playfield.

Not even possible according to them. The replacement PF’s they are offering for the incredible offer of $550 plus shipping are suffering from the same issue as well.

Go check the POTC thread, several of us have been trying to negotiate a better offer for those with chipping for at least 3-4 months no with zero movement by JJP.

Really disappointing to say the least.

#219 3 months ago
Quoted from Psw757:

Straight from the horses mouth(JJP) regarding getting a populated playfield.
Not even possible according to them. The replacement PF’s they are offering for the incredible offer of $550 plus shipping are suffering from the same issue as well.
Go check the POTC thread, several of us have been trying to negotiate a better offer for those with chipping for at least 3-4 months no with zero movement by JJP.
Really disappointing to say the least.

I dont understand that...U should at least get a plain playfield for FREE. Ur saying they offer a discounted playfield instead. I will research what u said earlier and check my games. I have been out in the field alot and have not heard these issues.

Pinball is pinball and things can go wrong...but I will be shocked if there was not a fair resolution to these chipping issues.

#220 3 months ago
Quoted from Psw757:

Straight from the horses mouth(JJP) regarding getting a populated playfield.
Not even possible according to them. The replacement PF’s they are offering for the incredible offer of $550 plus shipping are suffering from the same issue as well.
Go check the POTC thread, several of us have been trying to negotiate a better offer for those with chipping for at least 3-4 months no with zero movement by JJP.
Really disappointing to say the least.

I am heading there now to get caught up.....

#221 3 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Interesting that spooky just cut out the art in the areas where the posts hit the PF. Maybe they still have ink adhesion worries and are just doing a workaround?

Doesn't look as nice, but its a smart move....

#222 3 months ago

The chipping on POTC is widespread at the slings and outlane movable post holes(I lane and E lane for some).

Correct, discounted unpopulated PF was the official offer. $550 plus shipping so basically their cost. These should be free but I also offered $275 to split the cost risk with them and they balked at the idea.

It has been reported by a couple people that did accept the $550 offer that the new PF didn’t pass the scratch test and appears to be soft as well.

#223 3 months ago
Quoted from Psw757:

It has been reported by a couple people that did accept the $550 offer that the new PF didn’t pass the scratch test and appears to be soft as well.

I'm sure I'm the 1000th person to say this, but that just screams they're not letting the clear harden on these. Anyone who gets a replacement should leave it for multiple months so it can fully cure/harden. It really is a bummer that they're not replacing PFs for free, considering Stern has replaced populated playfields numerous times for customers.

#224 3 months ago

Someone should take a heat gun to the area of the playfield under the apron on one of these soft games. I am curious if an additional heat cure would harden the soft clear coat.

#225 3 months ago

My guess is that JJP accepted all of the Mirco play fields thus eliminating Mirco from any fiscal liability (Thus the $550 play field replacement charge). JJP may or may not have known about these issues, but were under a lot of pressure to deliver so they rolled the dice and it back fired on them. I'm fine with these companies having problems (its pinball), but its really disappointing they decided to take the "Fuck Off" attitude .... I wonder what percentage of these games actually have this issue?

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#226 3 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

you have AP with Houdini (haven't seen Oktoberfest PFs up close) that also uses mirco

Mirco does not make PFs for us.

#227 3 months ago
Quoted from RichieWrench:

I understand that...U should at least get a plain playfield for FREE.

No you should get a populated playfield and nothing less because they sold you a defective product, a 10-13K defective product at that!

Quoted from RichieWrench:

Pinball is pinball and things can go wrong...but I will be shocked if there was not a fair resolution to these chipping issues.

Prepare to be shocked!

#228 3 months ago

I have an idea. Why don't they just pay HEP a pile of money to fly to their location, audit their process and provide a resolution?

Sorry for those of you having issues.

#229 3 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

My guess is that JJP accepted all of the Mirco play fields thus eliminating Mirco from any fiscal liability (Thus the $550 play field replacement charge). JJP may or may not have known about these issues, but were under a lot of pressure to deliver so they rolled the dice and it back fired on them. I'm fine with these companies having problems (its pinball), but its really disappointing they decided to take the "Fuck Off" attitude .... I wonder what percentage of these games actually have this issue?

Don’t businesses that outsource work for components have some sort of insurance to guard against defective parts?

Just because they signed off on them when they accepted delivery with nothing installed doesn’t mean they weren’t defect free.

#230 3 months ago
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

I have an idea. Why don't they just pay HEP a pile of money to fly to their location, audit their process and provide a resolution?
Sorry for those of you having issues.

Mirco would have to admit there is a problem, which opens a giant can of heartburn. Nobody has gotten him to even admit he has an issue yet. Given how he has treated others in this business, I hope Mirco is finally held accountable this time.

#231 3 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

I'm done as well until there is a clear pattern of this issue being resolved and / or a response from JJP stating the issue is fixed. I got lucky buying a later build Pirates LE that thankfully doesn't have this issue but I'm not going to roll the $7500 - $12.5k dice again.
I've supported JJP since buying a WOZ in 2013 and then purchasing their following 3 games. I would like to buy a Wonka but the last thing any customer of a NIB pin should have to worry about are playfield issues.

Buy well used games the question of chipping or not will be answered and you will save money

#232 3 months ago
Quoted from Psw757:

Don’t businesses that outsource work for components have some sort of insurance to guard against defective parts?
Just because they signed off on them when they accepted delivery with nothing installed doesn’t mean they weren’t defect free.

My guess is once JJP inspects, signs off then they take ownership. Once they start populating the play field all bets are off

#233 3 months ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

And is that some insert ghosting as well on that GotG?

Your comment made me go back and relook at the pic's just what insert do you think is ghosting?

#234 3 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Mirco would have to admit there is a problem, which opens a giant can of heartburn. Nobody has gotten him to even admit he has an issue yet. Given how he has treated others in this business, I hope Mirco is finally held accountable this time.

This is the worst kind of people to have any professional association with, they are never at fault, hence they can´t be confronted and the issues can´t be sorted.
The only way is to kick to the curve, and i was truuly puzzled when crapco wasn´t out with the pirates debacle.

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#235 3 months ago

What's really disappointing is that Jack used to be all about the customer service, when he was just selling Stern machines. I guess it was easier / cheaper then. That used to be one of the main reasons you bought from him, the after sale service.

I have a borked POTC playfield and just have to live with it I guess, because I'm not paying $550 for the "fix". But I'll also think twice about future JJP's and already cancelled my Wonka LE order. Come on Jack!

#236 3 months ago

If you think your TNA #151 wasn't affected, your badly mistaken. I added the post fix on day 3 of my ownership with the game. It was obvious the damage was there looking with a flashlight...
Capture (resized).PNG

#237 3 months ago
Quoted from kidchrisso:

If you think your TNA #151 wasn't affected, your badly mistaken. I added the post fix on day 3 of my ownership with the game. It was obvious the damage was there looking with a flashlight...
[quoted image]

I had the issue on TNA #220

#238 3 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

My guess is once JJP inspects, signs off then they take ownership. Once they start populating the play field all bets are off

There has to be a warranty on the playfields sold to jjp if there is a manufacturer defect. No business would buy parts without some recourse. the curing time should be on the manufacturers side as no playfields should be shipped until fully cured. Since it’s only happening on post areas, seems there may be a gray area of whether it’s the install of the posts or the clearcoat. I didn’t think stern used Mirco so if that’s true, to see it on Beatles is a bit odd.

#239 3 months ago
Quoted from underlord:

I’m sorry for the issues you are having.
Could this be a cure time issue for the pf’s?
Overzealous torque of screws? Too much clear?
Will JJP send you another pf at cost maybe?

Issue like this you should not have to pay for a playfield at all!!

#240 3 months ago

I really doubt it is a curing issue. I bought a spare CE playfield in April and the clear is super soft. My gut reaction is that it is a chemistry issue and they will never harden.

#241 3 months ago

Seriously, the line workers HAVE to see that. There no way they can’t notice during assembly or when doing quality inspections. It’s so friggin’ obvious.

Remember just a few years ago we were having the same discussion with Mirco vs. Bader playfields on WOZ? Funny how that works.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/woz-after-4000-plays/page

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#242 3 months ago

Probably the most important quote in this thread on why clears are now water based and the issues that go hand in hand with it. Stern playfields are pretty decent up until about 2015, after that you started seeing clearcoat issues and quality control issues etc.

“Laquers went away due to the high VOC content and rather dangerous chemicals involved. Laquers cure by evaporation of the solvent carriers, which releases dangerous toxins like toluene into the air. Non catalyzed enamels also dry by solvent evaporation, though the toxins are less. But the trend went to catalyzed urethanes which cure by crosslinking the polymers in the paint, giving a much more durable finish as well as NOT releasing solvents into the atmosphere. Modern automotive paints, at least in factories, are also primarily waterborne, rather than solvent-borne, with even lower VOC content when sprayed. Unfortunately, waterborne paints suffer from adhesion problems as there are no solvents to bind them properly to the substrates (generally electrostatically applied epoxy primer) this causes most of the paint delmination problems you see on so many newer cars.”

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/automotive/994486-when-why-did-automakers-quit-using.html#ixzz5x9ZsEpQC

#243 3 months ago

Here's my 30 day old WONKA SE.

star post (resized).jpg

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#244 3 months ago

My Wonka SE has the same pooling and in fact I haven’t seen one yet that doesn’t.

So far 1800 plays in it has not chipped though. If it never chips I don’t care about the pooling.

#245 3 months ago

None of the 13 25+ year old route games I maintain from 1988 to 1995 have this issue.

#246 3 months ago

Replying from another thread here because it’s more appropriate for this topic.

Quoted from Who-Dey:

Yep and i dont want to get any crap started but there is already a thread of a Wonka with chipping clearcoat like the POTC games and they aren't standing behind these games. I played a Wonka the other night and it was fun but i still like Munsters better and no way would i spend 10-12k on a game with known problems where the manufacturer isn’t standing behind their product. Jurassic Park is another game that i would look into if i was wanting a game for the family.

Yeah, I found and read this entire thread with my wife after talking to a couple distributors about Munsters (bought a new Premium with all the upgrades) and trying to place a pre-order for Wonka CE and the Red 75th Anniversary WoZ.

One distributor didn’t want to take a preorder for the JJP tables at all and strongly encouraged me to think twice about JJP tables in general due to basic, repeated, and systemic quality control problems he’s observed with their tables.

He told me about the major headaches he has had trying to support his buyers of NiB JJP tables and how JJP just leaves him and his folks hanging while they kick out yet another new table with the same old issues. One dealer didn’t deal with them at all due to problems they saw others having. Another would grudgingly accept my preorder (tables were listed on their site) but cautioned I should be patient and expect to need to do some work beyond what is normally expected for a NiB pin. Another dealer had been a fan and supplier until pirates and these other debacles made it hell for them to justify selling and supporting.

After hearing the same story from multiple places I looked up the WoZ and Wonka threads here on pinside and I’m blown away at the type and number of JJP Playfield problems.

WoZ played great. So great I was ready to buy it on impulse. Based on that and Wonka’s theme alone I was
Ready to pre-order a Wonka CE.

But I’m not comfortable paying an electric cars worth of money for two tables that may have playfield curing/art problems with less than 100 plays and no support.

2 out of 3 distributors I talked to said if I had playfield issues of this kind with a Stern first, they are much more rare. Second Stern will usually swap it out.

(I didn’t think to ask the first distributor I talked to.)

Heartbroken because WoZ was a fun play. From what I’m reading and even the distributors admit, Wonka is a good play too. Possibly JJPs best. Just don’t expect it to be finished (code) and don’t expect the playfields to last half as long as tables from back in the day, or a NiB Chicago Gaming, or NiB Stern at half the price.

Just the info I have gathered all second hand.

Take with a pinch of salt.

If ya’ll have info that particular runs of WoZ are free and clear (see what I did there). I’d love to know what to look for.

Wonka CE isn’t out yet so who knows what state that will ship in.

I have to assume based on their track record no material improvements/changes to build/finish quality.

#247 3 months ago
Quoted from Lermods:

There has to be a warranty on the playfields sold to jjp if there is a manufacturer defect. No business would buy parts without some recourse. the curing time should be on the manufacturers side as no playfields should be shipped until fully cured. Since it’s only happening on post areas, seems there may be a gray area of whether it’s the install of the posts or the clearcoat. I didn’t think stern used Mirco so if that’s true, to see it on Beatles is a bit odd.

Might want to look around some more it absolutely isn’t happening only on the sling post areas. I think I’ve seen every exposed hole chip on all the machines I’ve seen. I’m not saying every machine has every hole chipped just that it is a real weak spot with this clear coat. Sling posts, in/outlane posts and holes, scoops, under the dauntless there has been chipping, under the chest where the forks are, where the ball drops off the returns, all in low number of games played.

The whole game has a shitty clear coat is what I’m saying.

#248 3 months ago
Quoted from jarozi:

What's really disappointing is that Jack used to be all about the customer service, when he was just selling Stern machines. I guess it was easier / cheaper then. That used to be one of the main reasons you bought from him, the after sale service.
I have a borked POTC playfield and just have to live with it I guess, because I'm not paying $550 for the "fix". But I'll also think twice about future JJP's and already cancelled my Wonka LE order. Come on Jack!

I honestly at this point think Jack is just a figure head/puppet for JJP. There were some comments made during some of my phone calls and emails that really indicated that the investors are driving the ship and are at least some of them involved with decisions being made on how to handle this with customers. Again, just an observation I made from some phone calls.

#249 3 months ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

You should always buy a NIB machine with a credit card.
Why give up buyer’s protection over 3.5%-4%?

I have never used a credit card to buy a game, so what is this buyers protection? is it through the credit card company? so, if I buy a game from any distributor with a CC and game shows up with crap playfield, I can file a protection claim with CC company and get my money back? or distributor has to pick game up and replace?

#250 3 months ago

Most CCs have a maximum purchase protection payout of $1,000, so I'm not sure this is the right direction to go here.

Your best bet is to buy a used one you can inspect, or wait till they figure out the issues on the assembly line.

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