(Topic ID: 249691)

Wonka LE Sling Post Chipping in one month!!


By rs812

32 days ago



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  • Latest reply 4 days ago by underlord
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#101 31 days ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

As of this post, the $12.5K playfield doesn't even exist!
(too soon?)
5 months post game-release and not even a WHISPER of the CE details yet. Unreal.

Far as I know the playfield art is the same as the LE/SE, but with glitter. (ALA Woz Yellow Brick Road)

#102 31 days ago
Quoted from jeffro01:

Odd response from your friends distro... The game is clearly defective. They can be touchy all they want so long as they rectify the situation which based on your post leads me to believe JJP may not do that...
I can say I'm not cancelling my Wonka CE deposit over this as I can only judge JJP by the experiences that I've had to date and my two JJP games are solid but it's pretty clear YMMV... hehe... Clear...
Jeff

I wish I had your faith....I've purchased several of their machines NIB, and love their games, but this is the last straw for me on NIB purchases from JJP....

#103 31 days ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

Far as I know the playfield art is the same as the LE/SE, but with glitter.

When the clear cracks, does it shower the playfield with glitter? Best lightshow ever.

#104 31 days ago
Quoted from yancy:

When the clear cracks, does it shower the playfield with glitter? Best lightshow ever.

Clear is too soft on these jjPotC and Wonka Mirco playfields for that. You're thinking of Dialed In. That had the brittle clear.

Here's the history of JJP playfields that I've seen:

Early Run WoZ ECLE - ink adhesion problems, brittle clear that came off in chunks with art attached
Mid run WoZ through RR WoZ - no significant PF problems
Hobbit - no significant PF problems
Dialed In - very brittle clear that chipped in as little as 50 plays
jjPotC - pooling soft clear, ink adhesion problems
Wonka - pooling soft clear, ink adhesion problems

The weird thing is they pretty much seemed to have a handle on it later in the ECLE run and through Hobbit, then it went bad again, but the Dialed In problem is MUCH different (and in some ways preferable) to the jjPotC and Wonka playfield problems.

#105 31 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

Clear is too soft on these jjPotC and Wonka Mirco playfields for that. You're thinking of Dialed In. That had the brittle clear.

First post in this thread shows chipped / cracked clear.

#106 31 days ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

Customers are the ones who should be "touchy". JJP is digging their own grave with responses like that.

touche!

time to bump the 'will jjp survive past 2020' thread, break out the pink ribbons, and fight for the cause. early detection is the key.
raceforthecure01.jpg

#107 31 days ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

I wish I had your faith....I've purchased several of their machines NIB, and love their games, but this is the last straw for me on NIB purchases from JJP....

FWIW, my faith is not unlimited... JJP better blow the socks off of us for the CE otherwise I'm out anyways. It would be absurd to hold out this long on CE details only for it to end up being a different color, and a glittered play field...

Jeff

#108 31 days ago
Quoted from Chicoman:

I've heard their playfields are being made in China. Not sure if there's any truth to that rumor but that could explain it. Hey what do you expect for almost $10k?

I’d like to hear more about this possibility. Maybe Mirco is outsourcing the PFs to China and keeping it quiet. I would guess something is new and has changed in the PF process. To let this continue on and on like this JJP deserves whatever negative comes their way. I want all the pin companies to succeed but this is certainly in the category of taking advantage of customers.

#109 31 days ago
Quoted from yancy:

First post in this thread shows chipped / cracked clear.

Yeah, the ink adhesion problems mean the art separates from the playfield and brings the clear with it. It's not the clear that's chipping per se, it that the ink is letting that area "float" and it causes the clear to break off. I see this as a distinct issue from clear chipping/cracking which would leave art in the case that the art was actually sticking to the playfield as it should.

#110 31 days ago

Whatever man, thanks for ruining my joke.

#111 31 days ago

What if the playfield is edible
You can actually eat the playfield

-1
#112 31 days ago
Quoted from Crile1:

Spooky addressed the issue, found the issue, and no longer a problem for them. I think it was an issue on the mid late run games only.
I know my 151 had no issues. Absolutely no playfield issues that I know of reported on ACNC. My Alice playfield has no clear issues or chipping. So I do not think Spooky should be brought up in this thread. Buy with confidence from them.

Are you joking?! Addressed is an interesting view I think if you poll those with chipped play fields they might have a different view.

Pretty much TNA games from 80->450 have this problem according to spooky so your TNA 151 has the issue and it will sooner or later show up.

Neil.

#113 31 days ago

I hate to hear this, I have been gun shy for years on buying NIB and I guess it will continue.

#114 31 days ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

I wish I had your faith....I've purchased several of their machines NIB, and love their games, but this is the last straw for me on NIB purchases from JJP....

I'm done as well until there is a clear pattern of this issue being resolved and / or a response from JJP stating the issue is fixed. I got lucky buying a later build Pirates LE that thankfully doesn't have this issue but I'm not going to roll the $7500 - $12.5k dice again.

I've supported JJP since buying a WOZ in 2013 and then purchasing their following 3 games. I would like to buy a Wonka but the last thing any customer of a NIB pin should have to worry about are playfield issues.

#115 31 days ago

It's like a stretch of an interstate that is rough and bumpy. They just post a sign that states rough road next 3 miles, instead of fixing the issue.....

#116 31 days ago

Stern GOTG Pro..not just JJP

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#117 31 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

I'm done as well until there is a clear pattern of this issue being resolved and / or a response from JJP stating the issue is fixed. I got lucky buying a later build Pirates LE that thankfully doesn't have this issue but I'm not going to roll the $7500 - $12.5k dice again.
I've supported JJP since buying a WOZ in 2013 and then purchasing their following 3 games. I would like to buy a Wonka but the last thing any customer of a NIB pin should have to worry about are playfield issues.

Not just JJP, Stern is having lots of issues as well.

#118 31 days ago
Quoted from JoeJet:

Stern GOTG Pro..not just JJP[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

dang man, What is Stern saying? They treated me good when I got a bad MET playfield. Took a while but they finally did come through.

#119 31 days ago
Quoted from woody76:

Not just JJP, Stern is having lots of issues as well.

Yep, it’s quite common in Sterns but never seen it result in chipping. Sterns clear is never quite as thick as JJP. I was told after the GB pf debacle that Stern we’re going back to thinner clear coats, and my early run Aerosmith has that. Thinner clear, no of issues at all including zero dimples.

Seems the clear has been getting thicker again recently. My IMDNLE has very thick glossy clear.

#120 31 days ago

Watching this thread....

-1
#121 31 days ago
Quoted from JoeJet:

Stern GOTG Pro..not just JJP[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Wow, yeah that's just as bad.

#122 31 days ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

I would advise them not too touchy it too much.

Or it will breaky?

#123 31 days ago

If it ain’t broke, it ain’t pinball.
If it ain’t chipping, it ain’t pinball.
If it ain’t bubbling, it ain’t pinball.

21
#124 31 days ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

If it ain’t broke, it ain’t pinball.
If it ain’t chipping, it ain’t pinball.
If it ain’t bubbling, it ain’t pinball.

If I'm broke, it is pinball

41
#125 31 days ago

Given the evidence and how it is plaguing more than one manufacturer I think this issue is without a doubt the new normal and it sucks.

If it is a cure issue things need to slow down

If it is a adhesion issue it needs to be fixed immediately moving forward by adding some type of adhesion promoter to the ground floor of the playfields or finding a product that bites in better.

If it is a product line issue like the clear itself it needs to be swapped for a better product.

No matter what it is if you cannot even install stationary plastic post on a playfield without damaging it then it will likely not hold up well to the moving silver ball.

#126 31 days ago
Quoted from High_End_Pins:

Given the evidence and how it is plaguing more than one manufacturer I think this issue is without a doubt the new normal and it sucks.

But is it really? I haven't seen ink adhesion issues with any previous or recent CGC or CPR playfields, and only occasional clear issues. This seems to be a Mirco/JJP/Stern issue alone (didn't Spooky use Mirco for TNA?).

I don't know if CGC WOULD make PFs for competitors or if CPR has the capacity over their normal lines to make playfields for JJP, but I sure would be on the phone finding out if I worked for JJP.

#127 31 days ago
Quoted from High_End_Pins:

No matter what it is if you cannot even install stationary plastic post on a playfield without damaging it then it will likely not hold up well to the moving silver ball.

That's what concerns me the most. I don't really know anything about clear-coat or the processes involved, and I don't even care about the cosmetic issues of clear folding over like that, but I'm worried about it cracking and flaking/breaking off in a few years.

Experts out there, is that an overreaction? What's the likelihood of serious problems down the road?

#128 31 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

But is it really? I haven't seen ink adhesion issues with any previous or recent CGC or CPR playfields, and only occasional clear issues. This seems to be a Mirco/JJP/Stern issue alone (didn't Spooky use Mirco for TNA?).
I don't know if CGC WOULD make PFs for competitors or if CPR has the capacity over their normal lines to make playfields for JJP, but I sure would be on the phone finding out if I worked for JJP.

Yeah to be clear I am saying it is the new normal for the ones that have shown this problem consistently such as JJP across at least 2 titles,Stern across at least a couple or more. This is why I note more than one not just JJP.
CPR has different type of issues but it is not a durability issue.
Not familiar with documented CGC playfield problems other than thin screening on inserts like MMR.
They all seem to have something at sometime or another but this puckering at the post looks as bad as installing an overlay.

#129 31 days ago

At the end of the day for us end users of the product it really doesn’t matter why it’s happening because it is.

What matters is why the hell is JJP and Mirco just sitting on this and doing nothing to first rectify their production issue and secondly help their customers out.

#130 31 days ago

You’d think a company with Stern’s success could bring PF production in-house and do the appropriate R&D (and/or acquisition) to nail these issues. Depending on 3rd party companies for the heart of your product isn’t smart (and it seems to worsen with each new game).

#131 31 days ago
Quoted from High_End_Pins:

Yeah to be clear I am saying it is the new normal for the ones that have shown this problem consistently such as JJP across at least 2 titles,Stern across at least a couple or more. This is why I note more than one not just JJP.
CPR has different type of issues but it is not a durability issue.
Not familiar with documented CGC playfield problems other than thin screening on inserts like MMR.
They all seem to have something at sometime or another but this puckering at the post looks as bad as installing an overlay.

The only issues I know about with CGC is clear cracking and peeling on early run MMr playfields. Some were pretty nasty. But I haven't seen any issues since.

The point is there ARE manufacturers out there doing playfields so the clear can't be dented with a fingernail months after it's made and whole sections of the PF art doesn't come off from the PF wood clean. Reward them with more work and moola, and punish the bad actors (aka Mirco) who don't know or don't care how to fix the issues.

#132 31 days ago

Start buying machines with credit cards from, oh, say, pinballsalesdotcom. Just pay the minimum for a couple months and utilize the purchase protection gimmick if defects show up. When the 2nd or 3rd machine is returned for a refund; in the words of Gene Cunningham: "action will be taken".

#133 31 days ago

People should just boycott NIB machines. Some manufacturers can’t be trusted to do the right thing even after an obvious defect is present. This is only going to get worse. What till all these machines with bad PF’s hit the market in numbers. Those with bad PF’s will sell for a lot less and in some cases people won’t want them at all. I know I wouldn’t take one. These manufacturers who are not taking care of customers or resolving know defects have a tidal wave of **** coming their way. They would be smart to stop the bleeding now or pay a heavier price later.

#134 31 days ago

I purchased a potc ce extra playfield, at full price (foolishly), just to have an extra. I received it april and a fingernail will still leave a mark. I have my doubts that it will ever harden.

13
#135 31 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

The only issues I know about with CGC is clear cracking and peeling on early run MMr playfields. Some were pretty nasty. But I haven't seen any issues since.
The point is there ARE manufacturers out there doing playfields so the clear can't be dented with a fingernail months after it's made and whole sections of the PF art doesn't come off from the PF wood clean. Reward them with more work and moola, and punish the bad actors (aka Mirco) who don't know or don't care how to fix the issues.

That was a known 50 years ago. Never seen this on an old Gottlieb EM
The question and what seems to remain unknown at this point that would help me better understand is this.
Did the same person make all playfields with this issue or are they made by different people exhibiting the same issue?

If it is the same person on all that is the root of the problem and it comes down to product lines or process. That could be addressed and fixed.

If it is different people then it gets deeper.

If different do they all use the same products or at least one or two of the same products in the process?

If not do they all start assembling too soon these days?

This type of info could really help find solutions moving forward but there is almost no interaction with the people that have those answers only those with the problems and aftermath leaving us guessing and many buyers suffering.

#136 31 days ago
Quoted from jeffro01:

Oh grow the f* up... Until JJP is given a chance to rectify the situation I have no additional thoughts.
Jeff

I swore off down voting around a year ago. Your post almost made me take the bait. Thankfully pinside provides other tools to make sure I dont have that temptation again. Good day.

#137 31 days ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Start buying machines with credit cards from, oh, say, pinballsalesdotcom. Just pay the minimum for a couple months and utilize the purchase protection gimmick if defects show up. When the 2nd or 3rd machine is returned for a refund; in the words of Gene Cunningham: "action will be taken".

You should always buy a NIB machine with a credit card.
Why give up buyer’s protection over 3.5%-4%?

#138 31 days ago
Quoted from High_End_Pins:

That was a known 50 years ago. Never seen this on an old Gottlieb EM
The question and what seems to remain unknown at this point that would help me better understand is this.
Did the same person make all playfields with this issue or are they made by different people exhibiting the same issue?
If it is the same person on all that is root of the problem and it comes down to product lines or process. That could be addressed and fixed.
If it is different people then it gets deeper.
If different do they all use the same products or at least one or two of the same products in the process?
If not do they all start assembling too soon these days?
This type of info could really help find solutions moving forward but there is almost no interaction with the people that have those answers only those with the problems and aftermath leaving us guessing and many buyers suffering.

A simple 8-D report will reveal the root cause.

#139 31 days ago
Quoted from High_End_Pins:

That was a known 50 years ago. Never seen this on an old Gottlieb EM
The question and what seems to remain unknown at this point that would help me better understand is this.
Did the same person make all playfields with this issue or are they made by different people exhibiting the same issue?
If it is the same person on all that is root of the problem and it comes down to product lines or process. That could be addressed and fixed.
If it is different people then it gets deeper.
If different do they all use the same products or at least one or two of the same products in the process?
If not do they all start assembling too soon these days?
This type of info could really help find solutions moving forward but there is almost no interaction with the people that have those answers only those with the problems and aftermath leaving us guessing and many buyers suffering.

I feel like Mirco is the common denominator, but it's hard to know 100% because Stern keeps their supplier roulette wheel so secretive. JJP is Mirco. The fact that the same issue with Stern's comes and goes and people saying they use Mirco for some playfields makes me think the Sterns that have it is also Mirco.

But then you have AP with Houdini (haven't seen Oktoberfest PFs up close) that also uses mirco and another supplier and I haven't seen clear pooling on theirs. So yeah, it's definitely a puzzle. Is AP paying more for the ceramic Mircos and JJP and Stern cheaping out, giving a different result? Who can know?

#140 31 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

I feel like Mirco is the common denominator, but it's hard to know 100% because Stern keeps their supplier roulette wheel so secretive. JJP is Mirco. The fact that the same issue with Stern's comes and goes and people saying they use Mirco for some playfields makes me think the Sterns that have it is also Mirco.
But then you have AP with Houdini (haven't seen Oktoberfest PFs up close) that also uses mirco and another supplier and I haven't seen clear pooling on theirs. So yeah, it's definitely a puzzle. Is AP paying more for the ceramic Mircos and JJP and Stern cheaping out, giving a different result? Who can know?

Doesn't Mirco and other manufacturers stamp the edge of the playfield with their name and the date it was made? People posting pics of their playfields should post if the manufacturer stamped anything on the edge to indicate where and when it was made.

-1
#141 31 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Wow, yeah that's just as bad.

And is that some insert ghosting as well on that GotG?

Quoted from snaroff:

You’d think a company with Stern’s success could bring PF production in-house and do the appropriate R&D (and/or acquisition) to nail these issues. Depending on 3rd party companies for the heart of your product isn’t smart (and it seems to worsen with each new game).

Didn’t they try that? I don’t know why they stopped, but it’s probably because they screwed it up.

#142 31 days ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Didn’t they try that? I don’t know why they stopped, but it’s probably because they screwed it up.

I never heard that. We all know this isn't "rocket science". For years, PF's didn't exhibit these problem after so little use. My 15 years old LOTR has over 10k plays and the PF looks gorgeous. Same with my TRON...still looks awesome after 6 years. SOMEONE knows what has changed. If not, hire folks like Chris Hutchins and Ron Kruzman to advise you! (when you get a PF from them it doesn't suck

It's not just clearcoat issues...it's sloppy wood preparation. Check out the wood grain on my IMDN Premium. Distributors say it's the "new normal"...just the luck of the draw. Considered purchasing a BM66LE recently from a buddy and his PF had awful wood grain issues as well. Ended up purchasing a BM66 Premium from another local collector because the PF didn't have the wood grain issue.

Hard not to be cynical...probably all comes down to time & money. Would be very interesting to know the profit margin on PF's...

IMG_9634 (resized).jpg
#143 31 days ago
Quoted from pcprogrammer:

Doesn't Mirco and other manufacturers stamp the edge of the playfield with their name and the date it was made? People posting pics of their playfields should post if the manufacturer stamped anything on the edge to indicate where and when it was made.

Not with Stern anymore. Which is part of what makes verifying that Mirco is the common cause across 3 or 4 manufacturers hard.

The Mirco logo on JJP/AP is under the apron on the surface of the playfield.

#144 31 days ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Start buying machines with credit cards from, oh, say, pinballsalesdotcom. Just pay the minimum for a couple months and utilize the purchase protection gimmick if defects show up. When the 2nd or 3rd machine is returned for a refund; in the words of Gene Cunningham: "action will be taken".

This is a great idea. 500 people bitching on a website or a letter from Visa legal staff questioning why they are refunding game purchases. I know which one will get results. I actually bought a Wonka using my cc. I should check their policy on this.

#145 31 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

Not with Stern anymore. Which is part of what makes verifying that Mirco is the common cause across 3 or 4 manufacturers hard.
The Mirco logo on JJP/AP is under the apron on the surface of the playfield.

So you are saying that Stern goes out of their way to tell Mirco and the other playfield manufacturers they use to "not" stamp anything on the playfield that would indicate where it was made. That would make it hard for Stern to track down playfield problems and solutions.

#146 31 days ago

For whatever it’s worth, my 2019 ST pro doesn’t have this issue. None of my games have this issue. My POTC did. So has every Wonka I’ve seen so far.

#147 31 days ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

It looks like the posts were tightened down too much on a playfield that didn’t have time enough for the clear to fully harden.

This is the real issue here. Not so much with the playfield manufacturer, rather JJP temporary workers line over tightening the posts etc too tight on a new and not fully cured playfield. Plus, when using thick clear-coat: full curing time needs to happen to allow PF to properly harden.

Every time the steel ball hits those posts, it rocks against the newly minted, not fully cured playfield and so begins the chipping, cracking and rippling. It wouldn’t matter which playfield manufacturer JJP were to use, they all would result in the same issues they have now, because of poor JJP manufacturing and over tightening of playfield items. Any playfield needs time to cure, before it is used in assembling and populating a pinball machine. It’s common sense 101.

Not seen this issue on any Stern owned by myself or friends. They have so many tables on the line, that proper curing time is given before playfield is populated and Stern experienced line workers don’t over tighten the posts etc. Cured thinner clear coats appear to be better than thicker in the science of a steel ball flying around a table at high velocities.

#148 31 days ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Yep, it’s quite common in Sterns but never seen it result in chipping. Sterns clear is never quite as thick as JJP. I was told after the GB pf debacle that Stern we’re going back to thinner clear coats, and my early run Aerosmith has that. Thinner clear, no of issues at all including zero dimples.
Seems the clear has been getting thicker again recently. My IMDNLE has very thick glossy clear.

My Batman 66 has chipping

#149 31 days ago
Quoted from thePLAyNone:

My Batman 66 has chipping

Would like to see an uploaded photo of proof of that.

#150 31 days ago
Quoted from thePLAyNone:

My Batman 66 has chipping

Under a post caused by the pooling clear?

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