I respect Charlie and Spooky games trying hard to build a company. They are doing things better and back up their customers. Only thing is, not good if the person from UK had to pay $1k to get his game right. Should have been paid by the company under warranty.

I can attest to the fact that the WW at Marvelous Marvin's in Farmington Hills, MI has pooling at the posts. The sad thing is that even if clear coat was not an issue with these games, they'd still have the issue of Stern-like chintziness that has not been present in JJP's earlier offerings.

Mad respect for a company owner is willing to post responses to people who clearly are just trying to cause drama, along with sharing his insight on the issue at hand....all we really want to know from JJP and Stern is what have they done to solve the problem from happening in the future, and what is the remedy for the customers who really have problems....its really not that hard. The fact that they have swept this issue under the rug for over a year is very frustrating to consumers....JJP wants to be the best of the best....well than act like it....

I can see your point about clearcoat,but comparing Wonka SE to Stern is a stretch.The SE is solid especially at price point.
JJP did the right thing with the SE

Wait, this guy got a free new playfield and is making it seem like he got screwed?

Wow, some people are just jerks.

Nothing but respect to Spooky...I wasn't much of a Spooky fan before, but playing ACNC this year and seeing how hard Spooky works to do the right thing earns them a ton of respect from me.

So, does that mean if JJP agrees to send out a few dozen unpopulated replacement playfields and their PF problem is fixed for their machines moving forward, they're off the hook, too? Because there seems to be a double standard about acceptable remediation to this issue.

I see lots of demands for populated replacements of JJP or they're money-grubbing bastards. So in light of this post, are you saying that what Spooky did would be an acceptable solution from JJP and everyone's happy again?

(And I'm not dissing Spooky's solution, it was fine AFAIK. Just pointing out that there seem to be two standards applied based on what company)

All they gotta do is do that and announce Toy Story, Harry Potter, or Jaws, and you might be surprised how fast the affected will forgive and forget.

For sure, if they give a newly populated playfield that fixes the issues, at no additional cost, then all good (very few have the tools and the ability to repopulate a playfield). My respect for them would return. I like what JJP’s original mission was, to make machines for the collectors, they may enjoy in their homes. I would be back in and buy all their machines, if I knew service would back up any and all issues.

All manufactures should give us collectors pristine machines to begin with that will hold up over time. At these prices nothing less should be expected, quality control should be job number one. On route machines are quite different imo, although what company wouldn’t want their on location games to look good? Collectors want to buy a machine with confidence that any legitimate warranty claim will be backed up by the company they purchase from.

None of us, would spend this kind of money, if we didn’t know that we could get back much if not most of our money, should we decide to on-sell the game. 2nd hand buyers are also collectors too and if they see a beat up or chipped playfield, they will beat you up over the resale price.

These games are Americana artwork and should look the part.

Can't really disagree. I'm not saying that JJP is quite at Stern's level of cheap feeling, but it's a step down from their other titles. I had more than one ball fly off the right ramp. All of the toys seem very thin and cheap, and the mechanics also sound very thin, tinny, and just not very solid as the ball is moving around.

But that's not what Spooky did. According to the post by Charlie at Spooky that you congratulated, they sent out unpopulated replacement playfields to about 15% of the people in that lot of 300 machines, and washers to many (all?) of the others. You accepted that as "good job, Charlie!" but are now applying a completely different standard of fully populated replacement playfields from JJP or nothing for essentially the same problem. So, why the disconnect?

What I'm asking is if JJP did the SAME THING to resolve the issue that you thought was great when Spooky did it, why isn't that enough?

It seems that most pinsiders get a case of amnesia as soon as the next “gotta have it” is released. I feel bad for all those affected. IMHO, if you’re paying a premium for a product, it should come without issues.

I also think a populated replacement play field would be the appropriate remedy. Have the buyer pay for shipping both ways. Then the faulty play field can be repaired and reused.

Dude your wasting your time with this chump!

Thank you. I'm going to be sick now...

I'm just trying to understand his perspective because it makes no sense based on his own words.

Whoops, I guess I misunderstood what Spooky did. I thought the gentleman from England received a fully populated PF? Stern sends fully populated PF at no additional cost to make the consumer whole. This is the only remedy that would be satisfactory, imo, at the prices being charged. You wouldn’t put up with a car with an attachment bolted on to hide the poor paint job would you (that’s what a washer fix does, only it pushes the issue out and beyond the washer)?

Name calling again???

At least that makes sense now, because the positions you're taking agree with this change toward bashing Spooky, also. So you're retracting your "congrats" for Spooky and lumping Charlie and Co in with JJP as money-grubbing bastards because Spooky "only" sent out new replacement playfields for free as their solution to the pooling and chipping (which is actually a cut above what JJP has done so far)?

Yeah whatever. There's a very clear difference between setting up a scenario that is similar given what you're selling to what Stern/JJP have going on right now.....

OR

Saying you're GOING TO go to someone's place and trash their stuff. You're being intentionally obtuse to try and look like you're in the right. It isn't working. THAT'S why you're getting the downvotes, and why other people are getting upvotes.

The tools? You can afford a NIB, but not a nut driver, some sockets, and a multibit screwdriver.....OOOOOOOKAY! If anyone has the ability to make good enough money to spend 6-12k on a pinball machine, but lacks the ability to LEARN to deal with a PF swap....let's just call it like it is. They're just *lazy* and self-righteous (and I'm not saying they don't have a right to be paying that kind of money!), not incompetent. These are just excuses, and Stern and JJP know that too. They're not going to kowtow for BS reasons like that....

Yes I am

Stern is not giving everybody a populated playfield to make them whole.
That's just more of your Stern fan boy bullshit and you know it

i do not live/hide behind a keyboard and countering that accusation is best suited for another time.

charlie, my question made no reference to you personally or spooky pinball. in addition, my question made no reference to the specific problem of playfield chipping/wear. in fact, it was clearly written as a generalization, asking, when it comes to resolving problems that require expense to correct, whether 'small' business should bear the actual costs of properly doing so, regardless whether 'doing the right thing' would put them out of business.

this is a thread in a JJP forum primarily discussing WW and POTC playfield chipping. JJP qualifies as a 'small' business. many comments here deem JJPs current response to this problem as unacceptable. some, particularly by zitt in the POTC thread, speculate that JJP is not in a position financiallly to afford offering fully populated playfields as a solution, despite being backed by wealthy investors.

i expect there are posters who believe if they have been wronged by a company, that such company should bear the expense to properly/fully compensate them, regardless of the size of the company. and then there are those who feel exceptions should be made for those companies who cant afford to properly compensate just to keep them around, even if those customers are not made whole. that was the topic for discussion.

charlie, by publicly making assumptions that my general question was directed at you and your company and then blasting me under those erroneous pretenses can only leave the moderators with the impression that i did something wrong and that they must try and correct MY behavior. frankly, im tired of it.

Man, am I gonna be screwed if Chevy decides to send me a C8 Corvette chasis and expects me to know how to reassemble the damned car.

I know a great place for some r+r where you can take some time and regroup.

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Brownhornet strikes again with useless negative crap. Adds nothing of value to this site.

If you think a pinball machine is even half as complicated as an Model-T...I don't even know what to say there. The most complicated pin to fully shop-and-swap properly is....

Wait for it...

Any electromechanical game. Pins have gotten MUCH easier to properly maintain over the years, and Sterns are very very simple most of the time. Pretty much one magnetic nut driver takes care of 90% of the underside of the playfield, or at least it did as of Tron and Metallica. Strip a game to swap to LEDs...Pfft. Nope. One nut driver, drop the socket out the bottom, and change it out. No soldered ground / bus wires, connectors to lift things out the top of the playfield, etc. And despite all their issues, at least companies like Heighway were TRYING to do things like make a game where the entire flipper assembly just dropped out of the playfield and could be brought to a table to work on.

Your cargument holds no water, like gasoline (not counting Ethanol blend).

This is a very wordy group of pinheads!

JJP's silence is driving everyone mad....

I’d preorder a Harry Potter with extra ripples

rs812 I feel for you. Every time I see another one of these playfield issues with JJP, well let's be straight here MIRCO, it makes me cringe. One or both parties are shipping products KNOWING there are issues, at this point, i find it IMPOSSIBLE that either JJP or MIRCO is that oblivious... I mean there has already been a letter written to JJP and they basically ignored it.

I love pinball, and I love this hobby, but bad business practices are killing a lot of enthusiasm. Please JJP and MIRCO MAKE THIS RIGHT, do the right thing.

it's a joke, dude. Relax. I'm more than capable of performing a playfield swap. But, no, I don't think I should have to be burdened in any way to fix an obvious manufacturing defect. I shouldn't have to pay for it. Nor should I have to do my own repairs.

Spooky is also now on my radar. Like what I am hearing from them.

Why should the buyer have to pay for shipping? The seller sent a defective product, not the buyer. The buyer is already put out enough for having to do the playfield swap and boxing the old playfield up and having to send it back, he shouldn't have to pay shipping too.

The problem is you may not have resolved it. You can sometimes improve the original cure and the mechanical strength of two part epoxy by performing what's called a post cure, applying heat to the resin to increase the rate of reaction. It's not typically done on incomplete cures, although in theory it *could* work. The problem with a post cure is if the temperature ramp up and ramp down is not correct, or the post cure temperature is too low and not applied long enough, you'll create microfractures (which may not be visible to the naked eye) and weaken the tensile strength of the resin. Combined with a steel ball applying consistent mechanical stress, this may eventually result in cracking of the clear, exchanging one problem for another.

Your fix might have done the job, but it will take some time before you can know for sure.

I think what impressed me about Spooky was not so much how they responded to the TNA issue, which didn't dominate the discussion in the TNA club thread so I don't know how bad the issue really was...it's that they learned from the mistakes that their supplier made. Instead, they spent the time to learn how to do it themselves and then they went out and executed. That is impressive! My next NIB will be ACNC and part of that is because I like the way they are trying to continuously improve, which is the sign of a successful company.

What did JJP do when the POTC chipping and pooling happened? They went right back to the well and did the same thing for WW. They at least should have rejected any incoming playfields for WW that were too soft. I'm bashing on JJP a little (even though I love my Hobbit) because I want them to be exceptional and it seems like they are on a course towards self-destruction based on bad decision-making. I really hope they get this solved.

WOW - Still No Response from JJP?

13 Pages later from my official withdraw from the CE#12

Welll.....Still Out.

I think this will be very interesting come to the Chicago Expo with JJP not making a statement by then....I mean we are just days away from September and the Expo is really around the corner. With games coming out and other things coming down the line - It really is important for JJP to get out in front of this issue and make a statement.

THEY ARE LOSING MONEY.

They are losing BIG, BIG, BIG money, this plus the POTC issues is bad. Great machines, however, I agree they need to get in front of this now. I want a WW, but shit...

I'm glad the guy the wanted to trade his DI for my TZ backed out, i don't need these issues. My nearly 30 year old TZ's playfield is still great. They are laying on the clear coat too thick as I believe they are trying to cover up the ink adhesion problems. You put down 4 to 6 layers but you only leave 2 to 3 after sanding, is what I've read.

Crapola, this shit stinks.

Dialed In doesn't have the issues. Hobbit was rock solid, and Dialed In's main problem was brittle clear in high-impact areas, but that's it. Problems we're seeing now started when Mirco played around again with the procedure around jjPotC time.

No one at JJP can respond right now. The entire company is scrambling trying to fill the chaotic void you created. Two techs had to go to the hospital after the lightning bolt of news that was your "official withdraw" ripped its way through their office. There were also unconfirmed reports of someone trying to Gobstop themselves to death. Not a pretty scene...

Charlie
LOL First off I’m not hiding behind my keyboard and I actually tried to come and talk to you about it at TPF but you were super busy or not at the stand and frankly I don’t travel five thousand miles to stand and wait to complain. I’ll be at Expo if you want to catch up then, you’ll find that I’ll say everything here to you in person “whilst looking at the whites of your eyes!”

Easy to fix any of my speculation by:

1: being specific about who was affected (so that second user buyers know what they are getting into - as you quote these games will outlast us all). There are still loads of folks who are in the dark.

2: being specific as to what the problem was - at least to those who are likely to come across it if not in public.

There is a view here that this was a minor problem - I don’t agree, there is a view that it was handled well, again I don’t agree. I am not suggesting that you didn’t do all that you could, but you could have handled it better - there was no direct contact and the only way I found out about it was when people started to post pictures of the damage then there was the washers offered - from what I made out (and you can go read the thread folks) - this problem was known and hadn’t been shared - if it had been then prevention might have been possible. People with games barely days old had the problem well after it was known.

But again those that know me know I am positive person and am super happy to admit when I’m wrong and if I am I’ll be hiding behind my keyboard posting that and looking anyone in the whites of their eyes saying I was wrong. I’d love to be wrong on this!

Charlie - I love TNA - I love Rob Zombie, ACNC is excellent and you have done an epic job to make something unique (although I’m not an Alice Cooper Fan!).

Yes I’ve got a new populated playfield that I had to pay for, yes you discounted it, no its not all a company could or should do. Within GB ghosting Stern sent me FOC a populated
Playfield.

I had to pay you over a thousand dollars to get my game back to how it should have been from the start.

Fortunately for me I have a good relationship with my dealer and he shipped it in his container free of charge (although some import taxes might be due on it).

I only got that I believe because I kicked up a stink on pinside. Because the only solution offered up to that point was a bunch of washers, which by the way I helped out all the UK folks by getting them sent to me and I sent them on to all the UK owners. I’m such a bad guy.

Regards
Neil

Hmm they are indeed!

They shipped me (and others in th Uk) a brand new populated premium playfield 5000 miles from Chicago to my house Free of Charge when Ghostbusters had the ghosting issue.

Well I wasn’t the only one; was I?

To be honest I considered the matter closed but I’m not going to listen to bullshit where people say it’s well handled when it absolutely wasn’t.

Neil.

Sounds like you should have got a new populated playfield to me. They made a bad product and should have stood behind it period.

Totally agree. I got a new populated playfield in the end but only because I paid for it.

Richie - expo is 8 weeks away and I’m sure JJP will update us well before it - let question is will we like what they say?!

Discontinued the game, realizing with this, and the mound of other problems, they could never fix all of it and stay fiscally solvent. Just on to the next. Unfortunately choosing to ignore the pf problems.

Stern has and will send populated play field replacements. They've done it before, and will do it again. Fact.

Potc was discontinued because they underestimated demand, didn’t have parts to continue for another run and had to move to wonka. It really wasn’t until they announced they were stopping production that demand for the game increased. My potc from the last run earlier this year does not have any playfield issues and the only issue I’ve had is with the camera, which was promptly replaced. It barely needed any adjustments. I think I had one opto and the upper flipper that I had to adjust.

Demand didn't show until they announced they weren't making it anymore ( you even mention it in your post)...Everybody wants what they can't have. After a 2 year wait, no one really cared anymore. Not the thread for all of that, but if the demand was so over the top, it would still be running....Business 101....

And I stopped reading the repair thread after a few thousand posts, including the part where the defective play fields ( face it, in the hundreds). Maybe they do ship corrected populated play fields to regain the credibility, excitement that was genuinely earned/deserved w WOZ....who knows...situation is bad, and anyone denying it...well, is in denial.