I read it. Maybe instead of calling it a womens only group they could say "No men allowed".

I'm a lot meaner than you.

-

Would you put your foot on someone's Harley to tie your shoe?

Would you be surprised if they put you on your ass for doing so?

Belles & Chimes, it is in the first paragraph.
Not bells and chimes.

You just summed up why the new leagues are a success and why the turnouts for established leagues are lacking.

It's OK... no one is forcing you to do anything.

It's still segregation no matter how you look at it.

So your suggestion is to fold all the leagues featured in this article? Because they are bad?

"Sorry ladies, this league is now defunct. Go play in your established local league."

Yay, victory for pinball!

I'm not sure I get your post. Our league is new (3rd year), has likely one of the highest male to female ratios from what I've seen, and I have brought I believe 3-4 of them out myself in the past. But it's not because we are trying to be a female friendly league, or cater to the change in the sexes - we just want to play pinball in a league, and anyone's invited.

Sounds great. Keep doing what you're doing. And my local league will keep doing what we do. It's all good.

Not my point at all. Until all genders and races are welcome together then there will be segregation.

I think she is "nudging" the table.

I think she is "nudging" the table not forcefully kicking it. We'd see a blurred foot if there was quick movement. Some pinball players play like this. Some are even wilder. Make sure to give Jen Peavler a 5' radius of movement or you may gits donkey stomped outta nowhere. That little package packs a strong kick!

I can't tell if this is a sincere question or not. If you actually do want women to play, then the reason you should make changes to create a more welcoming environment is so that more women will play.

Not knowing where you are, I can't speak to what specifically goes on at your league. What I can tell you is that, as a woman, seeing you assert over and over again that women just don't like pinball period, along with the general tenor of your posts, I'm left with a pretty strong impression that it wouldn't be a very fun experience for me to go play there. You may not intend to be sending that message, but you are. So maybe start by making an effort to sound a little less hostile to the idea that many women enjoy playing pinball and see where things go from there?

I am sorry you are feeling disappointed in our leagues.

Not at all! If the men won't allow you in theirs then it makes perfect sense to have your own.

Depends on Gene Hwang's skill as a photographer.

This is the dumbest thing I've read in a long time. Is there a coin slot on your Harley? Did you install buttons on it that are intended specifically for public use? Pinball machines are meant to be touched by random people who put their coins in them and play games.

I think you meant "petty, juvenile and prone to jump to conclusions". Because you're assuming she's kicking the game and making a threat, all about someone you don't know and circumstances you weren't there for.

Now I know for sure you didn't read the article

Hmm I wonder if Jen Peavler is the young lady I saw at It Never Drains In Southern California who was nearly frickin' LEVITATING from all the jumping and kicking she was doing. Which I think may have rubbed off on me, 'cause now I kick my leg behind me all the time when I'm playing!

Yes, touch and play and enjoy but I've seen people really manhandle pinball machines and if I didn't know better, that pic looks like ol' gal is REALLY beating the shit out the machine. And that isn't cool, at all.

(but I don't know if that's the case, since like I said, I saw a few people in that stance at ReplayFX and it boggled the ol' mind grapes)

I said I read it. Point is I am looking forward to the day when either sex even if a great minority welcomes the other into their group as this is pinball and I have a 17 year old daughter that plays with us guys and can kick butt on any of us.

Gene X is a damn fine photographer.

Could also relate to film "exposure" speed and such, but if memory serves, he uses a digital body on his cameras.

I'm over and over again asserting that because this is what I have seen in my years of doing this, despite trying to get more female friends and family into it. My wife and my daughters, no matter what I do, and I try weekly, will not even attempt to give it a chance, and I want them to. This seems to be a very common aspect for most men in the hobby, and there are countless posts about this, so much so it's usually a big deal when someone posts about their wife being as passionate about it as they are.

So tell me then, above what I said, what is needed to make it more welcoming for women?

Some of the woman in our league have expressed the fact that they enjoy the nights at my home for league the best.

Again, what effort above bringing out quite a few women to get them interested, and opening up my doors to anyone equally are you referring to? You're really losing me here when you are suggesting I'm hostile to this all. Read my posts again, I'm just saying there isn't anything to change. For us at least, it's here, and it's open to whoever, and given our ratio, which is growing each year, we're obviously doing it pretty well, but thanks for your insight.

Oh wait, same guy from tiltforums? @x? Yeah he's good.

Yes, that's how your start it.

Anybody that puts their feet on someone elses property, pinball or not, deserves whatever happens to their cranium. It's a total dick move, and people that constantly pull dick moves do so because nobody ever calls them out on it.

Well, as I said before, I would start by not repeatedly insisting that women simply don't like pinball.

The next step I would suggest is talking to the women players you do know - ask them what you could do to make the environment more friendly to women players, listen to what they tell you in response (i.e., don't ask them what they think and then proceed tell them they're wrong when they respond honestly, which sadly, in my experience, tends to happen more often than not in these situations), and act on their suggestions.

Are there any women players in leadership positions in the league? If not, try inviting one of your more active women players to become involved in a visible leadership role.

I can tell reading comprehension is not your strong suit, but I'll explain it to you anyway.

I said:

"IF you kick in my coindoor..."

The word "IF" would let any native speaker of the English language know the intent of the rest of the sentence.

So IF you or anyone else, kicks in my coindoor, I will kick in your head.

Get it?

Vid and rich: take it to PM and off the forum please. Disengage here with regards to each other.

lol why?? We are obviously doing fine, and again doing this *by just being open to anyone*. I promote it to everyone I know. I feel no need to try and change the average of female/men. Here it is, if you like it come, if you don't, don't. The fact is that it appeals for the most part to men, but still to some women. Why is acknowledging that an issue? In next season it was 70 women and 30 men, hey cool, so be it, or should I start asking around on what happened, and how we can get more men involved?

This is the problem some have with articles like this. It starts off great - look at all the women getting involved, and then goes downhill - men are not welcoming (no real explanation why), we feel like outsiders, things need to change (despite all men unanimously stating we would love for more women to get involved).

I still haven't heard from anyone how things should actually change, or any specifics.

Good god that sounds terrible! So maybe it is a pinball thing. Back in the 90's I used to go to Magic the Gathering leagues and tournaments and there was no segregation then, guys and gals all played together without issue, gender wasn't a concern (this was in the Seattle area). Maybe because pinball is so associated with bars and the like that it's audience is more, I dunno, primal? Not sure how else to put it, but what you describe sounds utterly horrible. Mind you I regularly play every Saturday at the arcade on the Santa Monica pier and likewise everyone there plays together without issue. I'm so glad there is no gender segregation there, guys, girls, young and old, no one cares everyone just plays together, it's a blast! Make it feel like the 80s when people of all types and ages gather around to watch me play Ms Pac Man

Ah, got it. Sorry, I assumed that when you said "Other than saying “we want more women to play”, what more can we really do to make it more welcoming?," you were asking because you wanted to know what you could do to create an environment where more women would want to participate. My mistake.

Probably one of the things that keeps women from joining mens leagues is the smell and I can't really blame them for that.

You wouldn't put your boots on Eddie Murphy's couch, would you ?
That Rick James is so thoughtful and polite.jpg

I am asking, and all you have answered with is ask other women. What are YOUR ideas on improving the perceived issue you keep going on about.

I can actually say that the one and only thing I have ever heard as an issue from females that I have brought out is “there aren’t many girls”. Nothing about why, or that the men was too rowdy, or they didn’t feel welcomed, just that, and understandably, but again, other than trying to bring out more females, what can we do?

If I signed up for some new club for whatever and go there and there was 40 girls and me and another dude, I’m pretty sure I would feel the same way, but is that the fault of the organizer, women there, or the aspect of the club? No, that would be my perception of the situation, and my uncomfortableness with it.

Sounds like my kinda club. Where do I sign up ?

th-1.jpeg

The event itself was a lot of fun actually. It was 3 years ago in Atlanta in the middle of nowhere in an outdoor hanger-like building with only a few big fans blowing to move the air around. It was called the Pin Swap and there were free play games set up that we did play, things for sale, and even a new WOZ on display. But some of the new games were only available in the tournament area, which was literally a roped off area of the hanger about 20x20 ft with 40 sweaty rowdy dudes in it. I'm sure had I really wanted to play they would have welcomed me or at least put up with me, but as a newbie it was a bit overwhelming. They were certainly having fun, and I didn't blame them one bit for being male or rowdy. I just found other pins to play and stuff to buy and made my own fun.

The event actually grew into the Southern Fried Expo the next year, and my mom has gone back with me and my husband both last year and this year to Expo. She has a goal to play every pin there and usually gets pretty close. lol I've never had any person (male, female, otherwise) been purposely rude to me at an event, or had any issues at all with crowds other than a few game hogs that my mom ran off so she could play. But I live in a pinball desert where I have to drive 2 hours up or down to even find other pins, so I really don't get to experience the whole social aspect of the hobby at all. It's usually just me and the husband playing the pins in our basement, playing with my mom and her 3 pins she proudly has in her bedroom, or having mini tournaments with my parents at one of our houses.

Ooof we have one guy who goes to the local freeplay nights at our bar, as well as the annual show, who plays by himself but always puts in 2-4 players.
Lots of side-eye at him.

pretending race and gender issues dont exist is what allows inequality to prosper. false equivalencies like equating men-only and women-only spaces (same as whining about BET that there isnt a "white entertainment channel") is a common tool of oppression for the privileged. those things exist because the marginalized group has not been welcomed in the primary community.

It was a sad day when TNN went away.

Thanks for the compliments on the photo. Jen was not kicking the machine when I took that. She plays aggressively like a lot of us do. And that was Jen Peavler at INDISC you saw too. At one point at a recent tournament (CAX), Jen and Zoe were playing next to each other while I was scorekeeping. Definitely a danger zone behind those two excellent players.

Off topic slightly but the Guardian should be running an article about pinball tomorrow that may include some of my photos...

Ah, that's cool! Jen seems like she could have a career in the martial arts if this whole pinball thing doesn't work out for her.

Thankfully when I played against Peavler, we were in the finals on a single player EM so nobody was in the "Danger Zone".

Kicked Messina to the curb and stole his guitar..jpg

That's code for them feeling like outsiders.

So, female-only leagues might help them feel more comfortable. That's why they have value.

Yeah, but by the same token, there seems to be a complaint in the article that there's not many women in the top 500. That's kind of hard to crack that nut when IFPA only endorses leagues and tournaments where everyone is allowed an equal chance to play. Gender specific events do not qualify for IFPA sanctioning.

How is that going to get dealt with if they will only attend same-gender events? It's not a skill issue.

I'm wondering for the reasoning there - is it because it is perceived to give an unfair advantage?

Anyway, women-only leagues are pretty new, so time is needed for the real competitive players to rise up from them. If the pinball bubble doesn't burst in the next five years I expect we'll see more cross-overs from unsanctioned leagues to sactioned.

The reason is because for the ranking system to work, it either has to be completely segregated by gender or not segregated at ALL. You can't have it both ways, and even remotely call the system 'fair'. It would be like me setting up a tournament where I only invite a bunch of a rookies every time, and they have to play on my games at home that I own. You can't have a competitive ranking system based on events where people are allowed to cherry-pick their opponents...

I'd reason we should encourage the two different gender leagues, BUT obviously keep the "men's" league open to women who excel and want to compete on a national level.

Just like in baseball, exceptional players will rise out of the Minor Leagues, the Cuban Leagues or whatever and enter the Majors.

the reasoning is because ifpa has the goal of being all inclusive, therefore awarding points to a league that is comprised of only one gender defeats that purpose.

It isn't specifically gender-restricted events that don't qualify, it's any tournament that has any kind of restriction on who can participate (with the exception of events that invite only people who are highly ranked or have performed to a certain standard in other IFPA sanctioned events).

So you can't have points for a women-only event, men-only event, juniors event, seniors event, novice event that restricts players by WPPR ranking, and so on.

The assumption that players who participate in women's leagues will only play in women's leagues is one I encounter a lot but is not reflected in my experience. Most of our players in Belles & Chimes also participate in at least the occasional open pinball event, and several go to almost everything that happens in the Bay Area. We have two top 500 players, and another player who is better than either of us and will easily be there by the end of the year if not sooner (it was barely a year ago she went to her first ever tournament).