(Topic ID: 318187)

WMS Sys-7 Menu-Button Wiring Diagram Needed

By Jason_Jehosaphat

1 year ago


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  • 206 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by PinballDr
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#151 1 year ago

gently pushing on the locking tab of the pin and gently pulling the on the wire, each one should come out with ease.

it's watching when you push on the locking tab that it's down far enough, then you pull on the wire.

don't pull first or the locking tab is fighting against the connector.

even though the locking tab is now bent down, use a razor blade to gently lift it back up.

#152 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

gently pushing on the locking tab of the pin and gently pulling the on the wire, each one should come out with ease.
it's watching when you push on the locking tab that it's down far enough, then you pull on the wire.
don't pull first or the locking tab is fighting against the connector.
even though the locking tab is now bent down, use a razor blade to gently lift it back up.

Thanks. I'll remember this. I'm encouraged to know I can change how the connector is loaded, and spare myself the chore of making a new one. It took me some time to make the leads before loading them into the connectors, crimping those tiny contacts onto the ends, etc.

#153 1 year ago

I have perplexing news:

I heard from the very able/gracious/helpful tech this week to whom I shipped my complete boardset for bench testing.

He tested them all for four straight hours and they tested...JUST FINE! This is dispiriting to me, because while it rules out the boards - which is helpful - it points to miswiring on my playfield or in my cabinet and/or a short, and those are repairs that are very hard for me to carry out without (a) wiring schematics or (b) experience ferreting out shorts.

I asked the tech if he could sit on the boards until I could confer with the helpful Pinsiders who have been helping me, just in case any of you propose a test that the tech can do and I cannot. So, does anything come to mind, or should I just pay him for his help and to ship the boards back to me?

#154 1 year ago

give yourself a pat on the back for you have done to get great news and with some help from fellow Pinsiders move on to the next issue.

your connector for your fuse saver board needed repining, but aside from that I don't recall where you are up to?
is it that possibly a short on the playfield was causing a fuse to blow and/or coil lock on?

#155 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

give yourself a pat on the back

Probably not justified, but thank you.

Quoted from Rikoshay:

your connector for your fuse saver board needed repining,

Does it? Weebly chimed in to say that my board should work as is.

Quoted from Rikoshay:

I don't recall where you are up to?
is it that possibly a short on the playfield was causing a fuse to blow and/or coil lock on?

At this point, yes, I'm assuming I have a short and/or I miswired my sling switches when I replaced them as part of my shopping of the game. I need a schematic to show me how to orient my switch capacitors and resistors. I asked in my regional thread if I could visit another local collector with a System-7 pin - whose playfield I could photograph for reference - but no one responded with an invitation. One collector did offer some photos, but I can't make out the key details and really need to get in there myself.

Others have theorized that I should be repinning this or that, or that I should replace ribbon cables, etc.

Of course, I can't resume the troubleshooting until I can get the boards back. I won't arrange to have them shipped back for a day or two, to give any respondents in this thread time to weigh in - again, in case they think of a specific helpful bench test.

#156 1 year ago

sorry, not board, but the connector you made needs the pins removed and put back in in the correct order.

I have a stack of pics, hope this helps?

the resistor and capacitor join in series on an isolated solder tab

the + of the electrolytic capacitor joins at the solder tab with the resistor

IMG_7144 (resized).JPGIMG_7144 (resized).JPG

#157 1 year ago

but you can do some more troubleshooting.

check/test diodes on your coils, check resistances of coils, check flipper assemblies, check switch gaps etc........if in doubt upload some pics maybe?

visually inspect under the playfield for anything that may not look right to you, if you think it looks suspect then upload the pic and you'll get an answer.

#158 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

the connector you made needs the pins removed and put back in in the correct order.

Thanks for pointing this out, but I'm afraid I'm still confused. If I change the pin order within my "harness/loom/cable," I will disturb the wire order as it ultimately meets the power diver board - UNLESS I flip the headers, and I can't do that as I can't free them from the board and Weebly isn't open right now to sell me a replacement to start over.

Quoted from Rikoshay:

the resistor and capacitor join in series on an isolated solder tab...the + of the electrolytic capacitor joins at the solder tab with the resistor

Thanks. Thankfully I have new capacitors and resistors for this switch. I'll work on this tomorrow.

Quoted from Rikoshay:

check/test diodes on your coils,

I thought testing diodes in the circuit is impossible. What am I missing?

Quoted from Rikoshay:

check resistances of coils

Can I do this with my DDM in "diode" mode or do I use a low-range resistance setting? I assume I test between the two outer lugs of the coil.

Quoted from Rikoshay:

check flipper assemblies

I rebuilt all four flipper assemblies - new baseplates, plungers, links, sleeves, EOS switches, return springs. I did NOT replace the original coils.

Quoted from Rikoshay:

visually inspect under the playfield for anything that may not look right to you,

It all looks fine to me. I have looked it over a hundred times. I will take some photos tomorrow and share them here.

#159 1 year ago

I'll try and answer in order.

1.Your original special solenoid connector should have the 2 orange flipper wires at the bottom of the connector, pins 1 & 2 on the driver board and the other wires that are blue /? follow upwards with the keying pin at pin 5.

as you know the headers are reversed and you have the flipper wires at the top of the fuse saver board. This must be fixed.

what might be easier is slicing of both the locking tabs and just turning the connectors around the way they should be?

you can the end of 'your made loom' alone at the driver board but must alter the other side to match where the original connects to the fuse saver board, with the locking tab gone just switch it around, then check continuity, visually should be fine as your wires are different colours.

otherwise you need to remove the wires from the connectors as discussed in post #151.

2.cool

3.you can't test a diode in a circuit, this is correct, you need to remove 1 side from the circuit.
but you can check the coil resistance with a diode attached and either wire removed from the coil to break the circuit.

4.to test the resistance of a coil use your lowest resistance setting and a wire removed, and when checking a flipper coil remember to put a piece of paper or
similar to break the EOS contact.

5.i suggest testing the flipper coil resistances, both windings as per: https://www.flippers.com/coil-resistance.html
don't forget to break the circuit of the EOS contacts.
say you thick winding is 4ohm and your thin winding is 330ohms then across both you should get the sum of the 2 windings, that being 334ohms.

6.i suggest replacing the coil diodes on all coils. 1N4004/1N4007. This may sound extreme or not something you want to take on, but it's what I do for peace of mind. As you'll be testing diodes, since one leg is already removed, maybe remove the other and replace it. It's a slow job and instead of removing the original diode by unwinding it from the solder tab/leg, you could simply cut it off. Unwinding them is quite time consuming and risks breaking the fine coil winding wire if all the original solder isn't removed.

a shorted diode will cause a fuse to blow because it's giving the current a direct path to ground.

#160 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

a shorted diode will cause a fuse to blow because it's giving the current a direct path to ground.

This sounds consistent with how I'm blowing drive transistors with locking sling coils. Perhaps I should start by replacing the diodes on my sling coils. Wait: I need to start with the saver board because that has to be in place before I start a game. I need to wait for Weebly to open so I can buy another blank board and build another from the parts I have.

Thanks again for your suggestions.

Quoted from Rikoshay:

... you have the flipper wires at the top of the fuse saver board. This must be fixed.

Got it.

#161 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

i suggest replacing the coil diodes on all coils. 1N4004/1N4007.

Thanks for the part number!

#162 1 year ago

Are you sure?

I bought NPN's by mistake. All the TIP102's on my board are PNP. I can't find PNP TIP102's on Mouser's site or on Digi-Key's.

#163 1 year ago

If you still need a schematics for Jungle Lord, check out eBay. Several listed and even include the small instruction booklet.

#164 1 year ago
Quoted from Jason_Jehosaphat:

Are you sure?
I bought NPN's by mistake. All the TIP102's on my board are PNP. I can't find PNP TIP102's on Mouser's site or on Digi-Key's.

Part number is the type as well. There's no TIP102 PNP. How are you determining the ones on your board are pnp? the originals might have been tip122, still an npn transistor.

When you buy parts that have a number assigned to them like a tip102 does, you don't then further drill down to the type..... a tip102 is an npn transistor. When selecting the part without knowing the part #, you might designate on the search "npn type".

#165 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballDr:

If you still need a schematics for Jungle Lord, check out eBay. Several listed and even include the small instruction booklet.

This is my haul from Steve at The Pinball Resource. This is *all* I have, but there are certainly diagrams in the blue volume, including a Power Wiring Diagram and a Driver Board Logic Diagram. I'm still not able to find the wiring diagram for the sling switches.

IMG_1547 (resized).jpgIMG_1547 (resized).jpgIMG_1549 (resized).jpgIMG_1549 (resized).jpg
#166 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

How are you determining the ones on your board are pnp?

I must have misidentified them as PNP because I'm only able to test them with the red probe of my DMM at either outer leg and the black probe at the middle leg. If I reverse the probes I get no reading at all. I'm relieved to know I won't have to order yet more transistors!

#167 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

the resistor and capacitor join in series on an isolated solder tab

the + of the electrolytic capacitor joins at the solder tab with the resistor

I may not have this quite right. And my left configuration isn't identical to my right. (Below is left side first, then right.)

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#168 1 year ago

These stray wires are actually what prompted the inception of this thread and they are still undealt with.
Please tell me how I can use my manuals to figure out where these two wires belong. I assume they were once soldered to a pair of lugs on the back on the diagnostics buttons given the proximity.

Green w/brown tracer (currently extended in purple)

Teal w/brown tracer

IMG_1543 (resized).jpgIMG_1543 (resized).jpg

#169 1 year ago
Quoted from Jason_Jehosaphat:

I may not have this quite right. And my left configuration isn't identical to my right. (Below is left side first, then right.)
[quoted image][quoted image]

personally I would rebuild all the special solenoid switches, the parts are cheap and you have 40+ year old capacitors.

how do you feel about starting a fresh with new components?

you'll really just be replacing the capacitors and resistors in their correct orientation and while you're at it give the switches a clean too, if it suits?
you'll be able to align the switches correctly and have peace of mind they'll last another 40 years....ideally.

#170 1 year ago

it's easy to separate the bakelite insulators and sleeves using a hobby knife or razor blade, gently prying from one side to the other.

if you choose to go down this path you can always post pics of your first switch before soldering the components on just for reassurance?

#171 1 year ago

Williams Diagnostic Switch Wiring (resized).JPGWilliams Diagnostic Switch Wiring (resized).JPG

maybe this will help, although the colour of the wires may vary?

#172 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

personally I would rebuild all the special solenoid switches, the parts are cheap and you have 40+ year old capacitors.

I rebuilt the slings with new kickers, pivot studs, plungers, sleeves, and switches. I reused the caps and resistors. Probably foolish but I will set about rectifying that.

Quoted from Rikoshay:

you'll be able to align the switches correctly and have peace of mind they'll last another 40 years

I shopped this game thoroughly - or so I thought. I replaced all the drop targets and their return springs, and I replaced all four flipper brackets and loaded them with new sleeves, plungers, links, return springs, and EOS switches. I replaced other playfield switches behind rubbers and I rebuilt the standup targets by transferring the original target faces to new targets. I did NOT replace the switches in the drop banks, but I gapped them and cleaned them with a business card sprayed with rubbing alcohol.

Quoted from Rikoshay:

you can always post pics of your first switch before soldering the components on just for reassurance?

Your helpful closeup photo will guide me in soldering the sling switch, but there are also the leads from the wiring harness and where specifically they need to be soldered to the switch lugs. I have a pair of black leads emerging from the harness, soldered together to a single lug on the first switch, and then a single orange lead from the far switch back to the harness - and none of this is known to me as Kosher because, again, I have no wiring diagram for the game.

Quoted from Rikoshay:

maybe this will help, although the colour of the wires may vary?

Thanks. That's great. Your buttons seem to have no fewer than three green/teal leads soldered there, but where is the brighter green lead that I have hanging around near my buttons?

#173 1 year ago
Quoted from Jason_Jehosaphat:

These stray wires are actually what prompted the inception of this thread and they are still undealt with.
Please tell me how I can use my manuals to figure out where these two wires belong. I assume they were once soldered to a pair of lugs on the back on the diagnostics buttons given the proximity.

Green w/brown tracer (currently extended in purple)

Teal w/brown tracer

The Green w/Brown tracer wire feeds all the switches in Column 1 of the switch matrix: Plumb Bob tilt, Ball roll tilt, credit button, right coin, center coin, left coin, slam tilt, and high score reset. The teal??brighter green w/ brown trace? someone might have replaced a wire. Trace it back and see where it goes and let us know.

#174 1 year ago

have you seen this? https://www.ipdb.org/files/1338/Williams_1981_Jungle_Lord_Schematic_Diagrams_paginated_some_with_red_lining.pdf

they might not be identical, but if your serious about replacing the capacitors and resistors, I have a complete original playfield out of the machine and don't reckon the colour wires would be too far off and am happy to upload pics of each of what I have, switches etc. and although not identical games we could probably nut it out?

Just do one at a time, looking at JL it seems the only special solenoids are the slingshots/kickers ? Left, right and upper.

It might look daunting, and taking all the wires off wondering if you'll put them back on the correct solder tabs, but myself and others I'm sure will help out.

#175 1 year ago

on my Black Knight the light green wire goes to the Advance with a white wire

BK Diagnostics wiring (resized).JPGBK Diagnostics wiring (resized).JPG

#176 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

on my Black Knight the light green wire goes to the Advance with a white wire

You are correct BK and JL advance switch should have a solid green and solid white (no trace color), but Jason has a brown trace on his whatever shade of green. He needs to see where this wire comes from. Then we might be able to help.

#177 1 year ago

Jason, the cut wire in your picture white w/violet trace, should go to the slam switch. What wire colors are on your slam switch if any?

#178 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballDr:

What wire colors are on your slam switch if any?

White w/brown trace
Green w/blue trace

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#179 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

light green wire goes to the Advance with a white wire

I seem to have green no trace and yellow on my Advance button

FFB79F8A-0C0E-4A7D-881D-C441CB2D3D4C (resized).jpegFFB79F8A-0C0E-4A7D-881D-C441CB2D3D4C (resized).jpeg
#180 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballDr:

He needs to see where this wire comes from. Then we might be able to help.

The stray green w/brown trace comes from the nearest coin-drop switch.

There is a stray white w/violet trace wire, but it may be a “not used” wire (switches 55 and 63 in the matrix) because it looks cut, not broken.

#181 1 year ago

My theory is that the two stray green w/brown trace wires here belong connected to EACH OTHER.
I believe they are simply different shades of green but still green w/brown trace.
One justification for this theory is that the brighter green wire does NOT reach the main connector just inside the coin door.
There is only one green w/brown trace wire in that connector and it’s teal, not bright green.
I’m not all that concerned about them because my coin mechs are missing key parts and couldn’t possibly work even if the wiring here was Kosher. Still, to guard against shorting, I will solder the green wires together and protect them beneath heat-shrink.

081113F3-ABEF-4FA0-A09F-528DDA969AFC (resized).jpeg081113F3-ABEF-4FA0-A09F-528DDA969AFC (resized).jpeg

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#182 1 year ago

just a suggestion, but I don't recommend soldering the green wires together.

yes isolate all 3 wires with heat shrink, but if those 2 green wires join to 2 separate places you might cause an issue or more?

of course it's your pin so your call.

it may have had the door replaced in the past looking at the plugs with different corresponding wires?

#183 1 year ago

seeing as I have the door out of the machine, I remember there being some loose wires, and believe as you do that they are for an unused coin switch.

as you may already know the green wires may in fact need to be soldered together to complete the circuit for the other coin switches, which is what you intend to do anyway, so, i reckon ignore the post above.
coin door wires (resized).JPGcoin door wires (resized).JPG

#184 1 year ago
Quoted from Jason_Jehosaphat:

I seem to have green no trace and yellow on my Advance button

Yellow wire is just a jumper from the white wire, so that is correct.

#185 1 year ago

I think Rikoshay, is correct, the door you have has been replaced. Jungle Lord schematics has the white/w brown going to the plumb bob tilt and no Green w/blue wire listed for the door. Switch 55 and 63 are not listed in my Jungle Lord schematics or I can't find them. What are their functions?

#186 1 year ago

Stop using images and start using the manual. All the issues everyone is pondering and trying to explain can be explained by looking at the cabinet wiring diagram in the manual.

wms_system3-7_cabinet_wiring.jpgwms_system3-7_cabinet_wiring.jpg

#187 1 year ago

My replacement capacitors appear to be the wrong configuration.
Can I use them anyway?
If so, what is the convention regarding the opposing wire lengths?

A1A77EE6-4CA1-46DA-A12D-CDBE4D2BD4EC (resized).jpegA1A77EE6-4CA1-46DA-A12D-CDBE4D2BD4EC (resized).jpeg
#188 1 year ago

Yes you can use them
The shorter lead is negative see the arrow pointing to it

#189 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

Yes you can use them
The shorter lead is negative see the arrow pointing to it

Thank you.

#190 1 year ago

I have reached a key step and I need help crossing it, as this is likely where I screwed up the wiring when I replaced these sling switches, thereby causing them to lock on and to blow TIP102's. I took the switches out and replaced the caps and resistors (to match Rikoshay's photo of a wired switch). Now I have them back in the game but the key thing I'm referring to is how to properly provide power. On the right, emerging from a large branch of the wiring harness, there are two black leads and one orange. The black leads meet the rearward-leaf lug on the lower switch and the one orange lead meets the forward-leaf lug. The question is, have I got this reversed? Please look at this photo and note where the black leads meet the lower switch (lower on the playfield, upper in this photo) and are then jumped to the upper switch where they meet the NEGATIVE end of the cap. The orange lead meets the inner-leaf lug of the lower switch and is jumped to the resistor lug on the upper switch. Is this wrong?

I have NOT soldered the power leads to the left switches yet and won't until I know how to do it properly.

Thanks.

IMG_1565 (resized).jpgIMG_1565 (resized).jpgIMG_1566 (resized).jpgIMG_1566 (resized).jpg

#191 1 year ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Stop using images and start using the manual. All the issues everyone is pondering and trying to explain can be explained by looking at the cabinet wiring diagram in the manual.
[quoted image]

Thanks. Very helpful.
The only lingering confusion then is, why is my slam-tilt wire white/brown and not white/violet? And if mine is white/brown, what is the purpose of the white/violet wire in my coin door?
In any case, I have soldered my two stray green/brown wires together in the coin door and shrinkwrapped the white/violet wire and I'm moving on from that issue.

#192 1 year ago
Quoted from Jason_Jehosaphat:

White w/brown trace
Green w/blue trace

My mistake didn't registrar that there was a flipper coil in the picture, the picture of your slam switch is not the slam switch, it's the playfield tilt which by the way is wired correctly. The slam switch is on the front door and should have the white/violet trace and green/brown trace.

#193 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballDr:

My mistake didn't registrar that there was a flipper coil in the picture, the picture of your slam switch is not the slam switch, it's the playfield tilt which by the way is wired correctly. The slam switch is on the front door and should have the white/violet trace and green/brown trace.

Oh. Very helpful. No wonder I couldn't find my slam-tilt switch; none is on my coin door!

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#195 1 year ago
Quoted from Jason_Jehosaphat:

The question is, have I got this reversed? Please look at this photo and note where the black leads meet the lower switch (lower on the playfield, upper in this photo) and are then jumped to the upper switch where they meet the NEGATIVE end of the cap. The orange lead meets the inner-leaf lug of the lower switch and is jumped to the resistor lug on the upper switch. Is this wrong?

Again, stop using images and start using the manual. If you learn how to read these wiring diagrams, you can answer all these questions for yourself. It's all explained in the manual (that most owners don't read or even know exist).

Lucky for you, I have a special edition of the manual that comes with intelligent, context sensitive highlighting. I think it's awesome, but unfortunately, not readily available. It's something that can be acquired with a little bit of effort though. Note that the green is used for highlighting because I can't highlight in black.

jungle_lord_solenoid_wiring.jpgjungle_lord_solenoid_wiring.jpg

This might seem like tough love. Trust me, once you learn how to read these things, you will NOT be reliant on anyone else for advice.

#196 1 year ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Again, stop using images and start using the manual. If you learn how to read these wiring diagrams, you can answer all these questions for yourself. It's all explained in the manual (that most owners don't read or even know exist).
Lucky for you, I have a special edition of the manual that comes with intelligent, context sensitive highlighting. I think it's awesome, but unfortunately, not readily available. It's something that can be acquired with a little bit of effort though. Note that the green is used for highlighting because I can't highlight in black.
[quoted image]
This might seem like tough love. Trust me, once you learn how to read these things, you will NOT be reliant on anyone else for advice.

Fair enough.
Thank you.
Based on this diagram, my wiring is incorrect.
On the right kicker, the orange/red lead should first reach the switch lug shared with the resistor, then jump to the second switch. The second switch jumps back to the first and meets the lug shared with the cap and ground.
Do I have that right?
Does it matter which switch has the cap and resistor?
Am I way off?
3639319B-BB4A-4E6B-8284-EA08FF7BF668 (resized).jpeg3639319B-BB4A-4E6B-8284-EA08FF7BF668 (resized).jpeg

#197 1 year ago
Quoted from Jason_Jehosaphat:

On the right kicker, the orange/red lead should first reach the switch lug shared with the cap, then jump to the second switch. The second switch jumps back to the first and meets the lug shared with the resistor and ground.

The schematic shows the ELECTRICAL circuit connections... not necessarily how the actual physical wire connections are made. In other words, when an electrical schematic shows three things connected together, it does not care what order, right, left, up, down, how far apart, or if they're daisy-chained vs. home-run, etc. It's simply showing that those three points are electrically common.

Quoted from Jason_Jehosaphat:

Does it matter which switch has the cap and resistor?

No. Because, both switches have them, technically...

whether the cap/resistor physically resides on one switch or the other, or someplace else, they are still electrically connected across (in parallel with) both switches.

#198 1 year ago
Quoted from sparky672:

The schematic shows the ELECTRICAL circuit connections... not necessarily how the actual physical wire connections are made.

Okay.

Quoted from sparky672:

when an electrical schematic shows three things connected together, it does not care what order

I guess I have to care about the order because I don't want to fry any part of these switches. Would you mind looking at the photos? Does this wiring, to your eye, match the diagram?

Quoted from sparky672:

whether the cap/resistor physically resides on one switch or the other, or someplace else, they are still electrically connected

Okay.

Because I'm not able to grasp this entirely, I wired my switches a bit more literally:

Power to the forward-leaf switch lug of the first switch, shared with a resistor, then a jump to the forward-leaf lug of the next switch. Ground to the rearward-leaf switch lug of the first switch, shared with the cap, then a jump to the rearward-leaf lug of the second switch. Will this accomplish my goal?

Thanks for chiming in, BTW.

IMG_1570 (resized).jpgIMG_1570 (resized).jpgIMG_1571 (resized).jpgIMG_1571 (resized).jpg

#199 1 year ago

well done!

your pics look fine and your soldering is nice.

negative of the cap to ground and the resistor to positive, just as per the schematic.

the caps you bought are called radial, the original ones are called axial.

DumbAss is right, once you jump in and start to learn to read schematics you are only helping yourself.......and who knows, maybe you'll be helping someone down the track from what you've learned?

#200 1 year ago
Quoted from Jason_Jehosaphat:

I guess I have to care about the order because I don't want to fry any part of these switches.

I think you missed my point... I advocate to learn the meaning behind the electrical drawing and then you'll be able to tell when a physical hookup follows the circuit.

Quoted from Jason_Jehosaphat:

Would you mind looking at the photos? Does this wiring, to your eye, match the diagram?

As far as I can tell from your photo, yes, it matches the diagram.

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