(Topic ID: 74101)

WMS Sys 3-7 Andre Test ROM Usage Video V2

By barakandl

7 years ago


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  • 55 posts
  • 17 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 months ago by barakandl
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    There are 55 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    #1 7 years ago

    Andre's test ROM for Williams system 3-7 MPU and driver boards is really good, but the instructions are in German and there is not much info about using it. I hope this helps! This test ROM is very nice and recommended for anyone who commonly repairs these boards.

    See my youtube video here about using it. Comments, questions, hate, all welcomed.

    #2 7 years ago

    Looks pretty similar to Leon's Test ROM. I burned one awhile back, but never got around to making the LED board to attach to the MPU to display the tests.

    Maybe one of these days, I'll get around to making that LED board.

    #3 7 years ago

    I like this one over Leon's test besides the fact is cycles the PIA outputs high and low at a slow speed. I find Leon's test rom to be very unreliable when it comes to the memory test. On bench solenoid circuit testing is a big plus too. I should rig up some inputs so i can do special solenoids on the bench too.

    #4 7 years ago

    It's a neat test rom for sure, I've used it a few times.

    The instructions I've found are a bit incorrect at times. To use it on a system 7, the instructions want you to re-jumper the board for running a 2716 at IC17 (going by memory here), but I found that doubling up the software and just using a 2532 works perfectly fine. This way there's no need to do any jumper changes.

    John, you don't need to make the LED board for it. You already have a few of them. My solenoid testers work perfectly for this application, they also function just fine on the display headers and also the sound PIA header on system 7.

    -Hans

    #5 7 years ago

    Nice! Still waiting on the arrival of my Andre's test rom but at least now I'll have a reasonable idea of what to do with it.

    #6 7 years ago

    And to save folks some looking...

    https://code.google.com/p/lcd-pinball-display/downloads/list

    Hans, wish I knew your sol display worked in that Andres output spot, I'd have added one to my last order.

    #7 7 years ago

    Great video, nice work!

    #8 7 years ago

    I do have free shipping going till end of the month

    #9 7 years ago

    how does your pcb work hooked up to 1J7????

    #10 7 years ago

    In reading Andre's doc, it sounds like for System 7 you do not need to build any sort of jig. It will output to a display. I am assuming then one of Hans's Credit/player 1 modules will work.

    He does not get into System 3-6 though... I'm assuming since 3-7 use the same display outputs with System 7 using the extra 7th digit, I should be ok there also.

    With Christmas coming I may not get a chance to check this thing out for a few days but it looks promising.

    #11 7 years ago

    There is no hardware difference on the cpu board for the display output main connectors between system 3-7. It is a software revision that outputs differently, and a different decoder scheme in the master display boards. After all, algar and alien poker are system 6 with 7 digits.

    There is an additional circuit for system 7 to handle the commas in the display, but those are on the sound pia output header, not in one of the main display headers.

    #12 7 years ago
    Quoted from Patofnaud:

    In reading Andre's doc, it sounds like for System 7 you do not need to build any sort of jig. It will output to a display. I am assuming then one of Hans's Credit/player 1 modules will work.
    He does not get into System 3-6 though... I'm assuming since 3-7 use the same display outputs with System 7 using the extra 7th digit, I should be ok there also.
    With Christmas coming I may not get a chance to check this thing out for a few days but it looks promising.

    System 7 boards output the test to the single diag digit on the board. If the diag digit flickers repeatedly on a number than the test failed, if it pulses once, the test passes.

    Doubling up the rom and using on a 2532 is what i do for system 7 as well.

    #13 7 years ago

    I wonder what it would do on a 3-6 with you display board plugged in instead of making the LED board?

    How about a 2732? I have 2532's but I didn't think GQ-4X's would write those old bipolar chips.

    #14 7 years ago

    .

    Quoted from Patofnaud:I wonder what it would do on a 3-6 with you display board plugged in instead of making the LED board?
    How about a 2732? I have 2532's but I didn't think GQ-4X's would write those old bipolar chips.

    I think you would get just junk data with a normal display. The test EPROM is just giving a path to ground through that display connector to light up the LED.

    GQ-4X can burn 2532. I have used TMS2532 and HN462532. There is one kind of 2532 EPROM the GQ-4X can't burn, but i have never come across it in the wild on a WMS or Bally MPU.

    You could make a 2732 work, but you would be cutting traces and running jumpers.

    #15 7 years ago

    Wouldnt work with the display board on first guess, the way the test rom drives the display headers is very different from how the WMS software generates the display data. It will probably do something, but if it is understandable or not is a different story.

    The GQ-4X will do 2532 chips no problem, I burn them all the time, but it cannot do a 2532A. 2732 is an option too, but needs an adapter due to the different pin configuration.

    1 week later
    #16 7 years ago

    I built the tester and burned a rom and it just locks the 2 on board leds. This is a firepower that has the combo rom mod. I used a 2732 from and doubled the code up. Do I need to undo the mod and runs 2716 rom? The machine will run Leon's code from a 2732 without lock up.

    #17 7 years ago

    I would assume Andre's ROM works in a firepower jumpered board, but i have never tried. I do all my testing before jumpering a board for firepower.

    The test ROM goes into IC17 which is normally where the green flipper ROM 2 goes. I use a 2716, try one of those.

    Andrew

    #18 7 years ago

    I don't have a 2716 but I will hunt one down. So I should be able to use a 2716 where the board is configured for 2732 or do I need to undo something?

    #19 7 years ago

    Well the firepower mod adjusts IC14 to use a 2732. I don't think you really effect IC17 where the test ROM or Flipper ROM2 (a 2716).

    #20 7 years ago

    I have been running 2732 for the flipper roms for the last year so I guess I can assume that IC17 can take a 2716 or a 2732. I just ran through the entire leon test and every check passed. Including memory. I found a leon version 3 I am going to try as well.

    #21 7 years ago

    All fixed. When I changed socket IC17 I damaged the pad tying Pin 11 to all 2 roms. IC14 was seperated from the the others on that pin. It is all fixed. Thanks for the help. I can say that it does not appear that a 2732 can be used with andre's rom but it will work with leon's.

    1 week later
    #22 7 years ago

    I just wanted to come back and confirm that the andre rom will work in a combo firepower machine. It will not run on a 2732 doubled up. It must be run on a 2716. My 2716 showed up today so I figured I would give it a shot now that the machine was up and running.

    #23 7 years ago
    Quoted from pinballlizard:

    I just wanted to come back and confirm that the andre rom will work in a combo firepower machine. It will not run on a 2732 doubled up. It must be run on a 2716. My 2716 showed up today so I figured I would give it a shot now that the machine was up and running.

    Thanks for the info. I wonder why it will not run doubled up. Strange!

    #24 7 years ago

    Thanks for sharing this!

    3 weeks later
    #25 7 years ago

    Just a note, Andre v2.0 is the shiz for exercising driver boards. Been spending a bit of time with it. Once you get through the initial test and hit the MPU diagnostic button the test;

    Toggles blanking at about once every 2 secs.
    Walks through all solenoids in pairs, didn't write the actual but its something like 1 and 5, 2 and 6, 3 and 7, ect,,,
    Toggles all lamp row/column select while walking an 'off' lamp through, 1x1 off, 2x2 off, 3x3 off, etc,,,

    I'm using the Han's Siegcraft™ adapters to view all solenoid activity and the display led array to watch the lamps march.

    I use one of the solenoid adapters to verify the driver board is 'alive' but placing it on the MPU top right connector first, then power off and move it back on the solenoids once I know the driver board is passing initial PIA tests as it's not needed there anymore and it saves me 1 sol display adapter.

    When on the MPU 1J7 the output of the initial power up diagnostics look like this..
    db-04-011 standard_andre20.jpg

    I'll be finishing up a board tomorrow night and can take some vids of what the exerciser looks like in action with Siegecraft adapters.

    Then I am going to bulletproof my Hyperball driver board... Mega lamp matrix.... 16x TIP42's and 27ohm 3watt resistor pairs. That should reduce some backbox heat.

    #26 7 years ago

    Looking forward to the vids...
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.Team-EM.com
    http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

    #27 7 years ago

    First vid is using the Sol adapter as an output device for Andre's Test ROM V2.
    Second vid is using all the driver board display adapters after the initial MPU tests have completed.

    #29 7 years ago

    That is great. I didnt know andre boot's test rom was stimulating the lamp outputs.

    #30 7 years ago
    Quoted from barakandl:

    That is great. I didnt know andre boot's test rom was stimulating the lamp outputs.

    Neither did I though I wonder what Leon's ROM would show on the lamp outputs when it's running - never tried to hook anything up to it before.

    Regardless, this reinforces in my mind that I'll start with Andre's ROM in the future rather than Leon's. Thanks guys.

    viperrwk

    #31 7 years ago

    That's all pretty cool info to watch roll around on the testers. It's particularly cool to watch the lamp matrix sequencing like that. Holy moly that's a huge upgrade for System 3-7 matrix testing.

    With Leon's ROM, it really doesn't show anything useful on the lamp outputs when using my matrix board, since it pulses the blanking circuit slightly off-phase from the lamp circuits. So at most you get an extremely brief flash of the whole matrix that you need to be in a dark room to see.

    Whole different world there with Andre's ROM for sure.

    -Hans

    #32 7 years ago

    FWIW, I tried outputting Andre to the Siegecraft Williams display tool, but that just dumps out garbage because Andre wasn't outputting BCD to a display, he just pulses the strobe lines to 1J7.

    Maybe tonight I'll be bulletproofing a Hyperball driver board. I'm curious how that will react to Andre's.

    At the onset I know Hyperball driver board has an extra PIA for the alphanumeric on the playfield that I'm guessing will not be touched, and twice the lamp matrix size that I'm guessing half will act odd as Andre will think it is 'sol' drivers and not column/row so they will pulse, maybe.

    8 months later
    #33 6 years ago

    Getting back to this topic, as I'm coming across some oddities when comparing boards between Leon and Andre's ROM's. I've had two System 7 boards now that Andre's rom will give a clean bill of health, and runs fine in both test modes. But then are completely unresponsive with Leon's ROM or with a WMS game rom set. So Andre's ROM is missing something in its diagnostics test, I just don't know what yet.

    Also been testing the other headers with my LED bars, and Andre's ROM also does step through on the sound header on System 7, as well as the upper switch matrix header on driver boards. I am seeing a few wonky things on those two, so I wonder if that might be related at all to the problems on this board. Anybody have a known good System 7 CPU/Driver set on the bench that can do a video on those two headers?

    -Hans

    4 years later
    #34 2 years ago

    oops a bit late But this may give insight for future reference.

    The "Andre" testrom after powering does not use any of the Ram to execute. It attemts to test the ram but it does not use ram. So it will be able to work testing the driver board and start pulsing solenoids-transistors even withouth a ram chip present.

    Normaly software does need ram and will hang on faulty ram. However Pressing the diagnostic key the "andre" testrom software does start using the memory and therefore will hang on ram related problems.

    This might explain the behaviour (5 years to late... sorry for that)

    Remove the ram IC to see the difference between startuptest and diagnostic test.

    For software lovers: I do not use subroutines (mnemomic rts) during startup and performing the test. Pressing the diagnostic switch i use subroutines (rts)

    1 month later
    #35 2 years ago
    Quoted from andre_boot:

    oops a bit late But this may give insight for future reference.
    The "Andre" testrom after powering does not use any of the Ram to execute. It attemts to test the ram but it does not use ram. So it will be able to work testing the driver board and start pulsing solenoids-transistors even withouth a ram chip present.
    Normaly software does need ram and will hang on faulty ram. However Pressing the diagnostic key the "andre" testrom software does start using the memory and therefore will hang on ram related problems.
    This might explain the behaviour (5 years to late... sorry for that)
    Remove the ram IC to see the difference between startuptest and diagnostic test.
    For software lovers: I do not use subroutines (mnemomic rts) during startup and performing the test. Pressing the diagnostic switch i use subroutines (rts)

    I am having an issue with getting the test rom to run. Seems to somewhat work intermittently. I power on the board and I either get a lockup or the test run appears to cycle through the LEDs but still ends up locking up. It also click the blanking relay sometimes but never more than a few times before it locks up. Any Ideas what may be causing this?

    The board was actually working before I tried installing nvram. I added a 5101 and removed the batter tray and jumped the positive and Negative of the tray. What I didnt realize is that the board was missing resistor R1. When I powered it on d17 light up like an led. I replaced the d17, d18, R1 and the nvram. After that I had the lock on problem with the test rom even with the cmos ram removed.

    I also might have shut off the game while it was booting the test rom. Not sure if that could brick something too.

    I also pressed SW2, I dont know if it was before or after the lock up issue.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    1 year later
    #36 6 months ago

    andre_boot : just wanted to express my thanks for your test rom v2.0. It just helped me fix my Wms Firepower after much work/troubleshooting. It’s funny too- because I had an intermittent lockup issue, that got better for a while, but then after I worked on a couple other board issues became progressively worse until it would not boot at all. Naturally I suspected some of the work I just did, and was pulling my hair out. Finally I used your ROM which pointed to the RAM chip 16- replacement has game booting and running. Thank you!!

    **Oh, and thanks barakandl for the demo vid that got me going with this chip! As a side note to your awesome vid, I wanted to mention what might be obvious to some, but might help others: You don't need the LED display board- you can go by the LEDs on the MPU, which if you know the test sequence, can then be used to ID what device is faulty. this is what I did. To capture the sequence, I watched barakandl's vid a few times slowed down- and also this was a good demonstration of how it is supposed to look on a fully working set up.

    As an amusing side note- when I bought a mini pro 866cs rom burner- i considered selling off my old burner, a needham pb10. I kept it out of nostalgia, and the fact that it needs to be plugged into an isa port in an old 486 pc- and i doubted anyone would want/buy it. Fast forward a few years, the mini pro will NOT burn 2716 chips. But, the needham still does perfectly! Great stuff!

    #37 6 months ago

    While I'm not familiar with the Andre or Leon ROMs, I do offer another set of test ROMs you can also try for free:

    https://pincoder.ca

    Start with the 01a-leds test. It will allow you to see if/when the cpu crashes and also does not use any RAM.

    Also, if it becomes a hassle to change/burn roms, you can use the Pincoder Adapter:

    https://pincoder.ca/index.php/2020/07/10/adapter-2020-06-23-0506/

    It comes with a single newer and bigger eeprom chip and can emulate the 2716 and 2532 chips.. it also comes with all of the Pincoder test ROMs (system 3 through 7) preinstalled and also has plenty of room for other ROMs (like andre and leons images).

    To add roms to it, your chip programmer needs to be able to write an ST39SF040 chip.

    It will save you tons of time and you won't need to program 2716 chips anymore.

    You can start running tests right out of the box!

    #38 6 months ago

    And of course, Marco's testroms are also still there. Plenty of choice for testing Williams boards nowadays

    #39 6 months ago

    Hi everyone, I’ve been using the ROM files and adapter that pincoder provided to bench test my MPU. It passes the bench tests with the driver board connected but when I put everything back in the machine, it still won’t boot. It doesn't ever pass the on board diagnosis. It’s all over the place. It doesn’t always respond the same every time. My board has already been converted to three ROMs and has a new 40 pin connector along with some other work. I’m hoping that Andre’s ROM will help further. I bought the Siegecraft solenoid output test board shown above. I think it’s supposed to be delivered today according to the tracking number.

    Is using Andre’s testrom as easy as downloading the V2 file, burning it onto a 2716 chip, installing it in the IC17 socket, connecting the solenoid test board, and applying +5v, +12V, and GND to the appropriate pins?

    Thanks!!

    #40 6 months ago

    If you download the Pincoder software from:

    https://pincoder.ca

    There is a bin file with all of the same roms images that is on the adapter.

    If you read up on the notes on the adapter page:

    https://pincoder.ca/index.php/2020/07/10/adapter-2020-06-23-0506/

    While I don't have specific instructions on how to do it (because not all chip programmers are alike) the point I'm getting at is that you can also include the Andre and Leon ROMs on the Pincoder Adapter. There's plenty of room and it will allow you to keep all your ROM images in one place. The only hardware requirement is that your chip programmer supports the ST39SF040 chip.

    At a later date I'll write a how-to for this. Just wanted to let you know it is currently possible since you already have the adapter.

    #41 6 months ago
    Quoted from pincoder:

    If you download the Pincoder software from:
    https://pincoder.ca
    There is a bin file with all of the same roms images that is on the adapter.
    If you read up on the notes on the adapter page:
    https://pincoder.ca/index.php/2020/07/10/adapter-2020-06-23-0506/
    While I don't have specific instructions on how to do it (because not all chip programmers are alike) the point I'm getting at is that you can also include the Andre and Leon ROMs on the Pincoder Adapter. There's plenty of room and it will allow you to keep all your ROM images in one place. The only hardware requirement is that your chip programmer supports the ST39SF040 chip.
    At a later date I'll write a how-to for this. Just wanted to let you know it is currently possible since you already have the adapter.

    I've seen that but I'm just interested in burning Andre's ROM by itself right now. I have a GQ-4X4. I just got it and I'm not very familiar with using it. This is the first time I've burnt Eproms.

    #42 6 months ago

    Andres test rom is indeed that simple. Burn it, unplug all connectors from mpu and driver board. Remove all mpu roms, Install the Andre v2.0 rom, plug in only the mpu power connector, turn it on, watch the mpu leds.

    #43 6 months ago
    Quoted from sharkey1331:

    Andres test rom is indeed that simple. Burn it, unplug all connectors from mpu and driver board. Remove all mpu roms, Install the Andre v2.0 rom, plug in only the mpu power connector, turn it on, watch the mpu leds.

    The driver board doesn't need any power or ground?

    Thanks sharkey1331

    #44 6 months ago

    I didn't do so, when I tested mine. The driverboard gets from the interconnect with the MPU, VCC (pins 1&2) and ground (pins 39&40)

    #45 6 months ago
    Quoted from sharkey1331:

    I didn't do so, when I tested mine. The driverboard gets from the interconnect with the MPU, VCC (pins 1&2) and ground (pins 39&40)

    Thanks again.

    #46 6 months ago

    I just posted testing of this- compare the LED flashes to the original vid in this thread that barakandl posted- and you can see where my test is failing.

    #47 6 months ago

    Thanks for the video Sharkey. I just ran Andre’s test rom and I’m unsure of the results.

    In the other videos posted above, the relay on the driver board clicks loudly. My relay doesn’t click at all unless I touch it. Then it clicks briefly but stops until I touch it again. I’m going to see if I can touch up those solder joints and try again.

    Here is a video of what I’m seeing.

    Thanks!!

    #48 6 months ago

    duplicate post

    #49 6 months ago

    I touched up the solder joints on the flipper relay. It clicks loudly now at some points during the test but sounds muted when firing rapidly.

    Here’s another video after the relay was touched up.

    #50 6 months ago

    Also, those tests were run with the ROMs pulled and the 5101 RAM pulled as well. Should I put any of it back?

    There are 55 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

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