Space Odyssey
Williams, 1976My Space Odyssey is awarding too much bonus?
Space Odyssey has lights to show you bonus... 1000- 9000 and a 10,000 and 20,000 light.. So say I only get 3000 in bonus, when the machine counts it down it gives me 20,000 or so points? None of the Double Bonus lights are lit or anything. When they are I'm pretty sure they still doubling the 20,000 or whatever it's counting down and not just the 3000 I should be receiving?
Where should I look? Bonus Unit? Score Motor?
What HDC said. Also the bonus unit itself. Make sure when it steps down that its one step per fire
-Jeff
Hey Bill long time no hear. 
Check your Bonus "C" position Switch (o/b & br-y) and Double Bonus Relay "A" position Switch (g-b & b-g) Both NO . One of these switches may be gaped to close.
Ken 
Here I go chasing stuff again. Now I turn the game on with the ball energizing the outhole switch and it makes the score motor run and the swinging target. If I take the pinball out and turn on the machine the score motor runs briefly and comes to a stop?
I'll check Ken.. Yeah I've had good luck with my only EM running smoothly till this latest issue.. I wasn't all that good trouble shooting before and now with the extended time of not messing with switches etc.. I forget..LOL
Quoted from BillinIndiana:I'll check Ken.. Yeah I've had good luck with my only EM running smoothly till this latest issue.. I wasn't all that good trouble shooting before and now with the extended time of not messing with switches etc.. I forget..LOL
Getting a little rusty eh? 
Bill, Check your Game Over Relay "B" Position (purple -blue) this switch is NC and opens the circuit to the Swinging Target.
If it were me, I would just check all the Switches on the 3 Relays I mentioned. 
Have Fun! 
Ken
I can power on without the ball in the out hole and all is fine..I hit the outhole switch with my hand it energizes the Bonus relay and that closes all the NO switches and vice versa
And Yep.. I'm real rusty! The swinging target is not moving right now.. Just the score motor. It has to do with the Double Bonus I would think, that is all I touched to make things worse
OK.. The Bonus Unit won't reset to zero.. That's what was causing the score motor to run..
I reset the Bonus unit to Zero by hand and that gets me back to where I can start a game, put the ball in play, but the Bonus unit won't count down now..
I need new hips, so I can only stand and work on it so long. Sucks!
hey Bill after your scores reset to zero and score motor keeps running turn the game off from under the cab and take a look at the score reels in the back box.
if any of them now show #1 thats the pf sw you want to look for that is stuck 
-sometimes it helps
I have it down to the Bonus unit not resetting now... I can reset it to zero by hand and power on, hit start and play the ball, but it will not reset to zero when I drain the ball. I believe this is where I am at, I had to take a break
Hey Bill
Being a Williams check, then double check your wires to the Bonus and Double Bonus Relays thoroughly and give them all a tug to make sure you did not have a wire break off. Bright light and a magnifying glass helps a lot too.
Good Luck!
P.S. I had a Score Wheel problem on my Gulfstream recently and it was a broken wire that I did not locate upon my first inspection.
Ken
Alright.. I'll get it. I hate when I make things worse.. How do I always do that? LOL Before I messsed with it it was just giving you to many points, then all hell broke lose..LOL.. Well sorta
it will never step down if a bonus point is still being scored-stuck
you have to re check that first - feel if any coils are getting hot
stick a finger in the back of the reels where the sol. almost hits the reel,
if you cant feel 1 or more then they are locked on - hope this helps somewhat
I understand ya somewhat HDC.. but the score motor is not running if I set the Bonus Unit to zero and start a game.. I can play a ball normally.. I keeps track of Bonus and score properly, but when I drain the ball the reset coil on the Bonus unit isn't being energized. I now have it to where it will just keep adding points till I shut down the machine, reset the Bonus Unit to zero by hand and start a new game..
So according to the manual, I'm thinking I need to look at a NO switch B on Bonus Relay and M/B switch on Double Bonus Relay.. Or the manual says that it also has to do with few of the score motor switches, and I hate that thing 
Edit: Also if I don't reset the Bonus Unit by hand and just turn the machine back on.. It is then that the score motor runs as soon as I power on and hit the start button.
I am not in a place where I can view my Space Mission schematic, but as a tip... When I have a lot of work to do on the underside of a playfield I'll unplug and remove it to a place and position where I can easily get to everything.
Once it's very convenient I can take my time and really go through everything which may be related to my issue.
The bonus unit for example, if it were mine I'd spend some time on it, paying particular attention to the rotor return spring tension, ratchet operations, operation of the zero position switches... clean and gap them etc.
While the PF is out of the machine it's a good chance to double check all that long row of relays, particularly to verify suspected problem relays without uncomfortably leaning over anything, and the machine's bottom relay board is much easier to access while the PF is out.
Thanks SteveFury.. I added a few things to my above post and edited my mistake about the score motor.. It only runs when I hit Start if I don't reset Bonus Unit to zero
I felt the score reel relays, they don't seem to be getting hot. I'll check again when my flashlight battery charges..
Where I'm at now is
1. I power on the machine and hit start button and the score reels reset back to showing all zeros.
2. The score motor runs and one of the relays in the back box are pulsing with the rotation of the score motor.. Not sure which one it is, all my labels are long gone back there and wiring is faded.?
3.. It does this until I manually trigger the Bonus unit reset coil.. Just one time
4. I can now play and score points till I drain ball (hit outhole) then the score never stops collecting till I power off the machine.
Bill,
Check your BU step down coil on the DMM and make sure its good.
Or see if you can make it fire with the bonus reset relay.
-Jeff
you should be getting 50 - 5 x 10 , then 1000 when the ball leaves the pf = 1050
-just tried it on my Space Mission
Yeah, that's the how the problem originally started.. I get too much bonus for some reason
Also, my side bumpers alternate between 20 pts and 50 pts , so hit them twice you get 70 pts 3 times 120, 4 times 140 and so forth..lol
The Bonus showing a 1000 and then scoring 4000 is what gets me?
Hey Bill,
Final Score 4020.
My question is what was the score before you put the ball in the Outhole?
Ken
20 (from hitting the side bumper) is all that shows on the score reels till I drain the ball..the 1000 Bonus lite is lit on the PF ( red rocket) as soon as I start the game... The 4000 is scored when I drain to outhole.. That's how I ended up with 4020
A side note:
The side bumper areas alternate between scoring 20 and 50 if I continuously trigger that switch
When you manually step the bonus stepper down does it move one rivet at a time?
Is it sticking and having to fire multiple time to get back to 0?
Or another thought. Look at your 1000s relay and see how many times it fires.
This could point to a relay, reel or BU issue
--Jeff
when i hit the side I hear the 10 chime bar 5 times
and since Wms bonus units start you out with an automatic 1000 points
that's how you get the 1050 score - I wonder Bill what kind of a sound are you hearing?
Hey Bill,
Just for giggles, Inspect your switches on your 1000 Point Relay. Make sure you do not have one gaped too close.
Ken
1000 pt relay is backbox right? I need to make some labels this time when I'm back there.. All my wires are too faded and all labels are missing, so i don't know which is which.. I'm sure I can figure it out, I just felt like complaining.
edit: Also HDC.. I think the alternating 20 pts and 50 pts is too consistent to be abnormal.. Like I said it alternates back and forth.. say I end a game by scoring 50 pts off the side bumper.. Next time I hit it I score 20, even after starting a new game, if that makes any sense?
Quoted from BillinIndiana:1000 pt relay is backbox right?
Yes. I don't remember which one exactly except there is a row of Relays.
Ken
Quoted from HELLODEADCITY:hmm.... does the other side score the same Bill
Yep.. 20...50...20 and so forth.. maybe it's one of the upgrades to score 50 every time on Space Mission..LOL
Quoted from HELLODEADCITY:3 ball or 5 ball play?
5
on the score motor 5A (bottom) you have a 50 point & 5000 RE Lock Sw
I would give that a look 1st - I had a game scoring too much and it was the wires behind the Sw that were shorting and not the contacts themselves.
-on Space Mission that would be the 7th set of SWs from the left - index,1,2,2L,3,4,5
hope the 2 player version is the same?
I'm back.. Never got around to fixing this problem. This weather is killing my hips.
I did look at it again today and noticed something. I hope this comes out to where you all can follow me?
As I said in earlier post, I can tap the side bumper and score an alternating score of 20 and 50 points ( be it right or wrong?)
I also noticed that if I do the exact same thing I did in the video the Bonus I collect alternates too.. So say I tap the side I get points ( ignore how many for this part) and I drain the ball.... It alternates between giving the 1000 and 5000 Bonus points..?
drain ball #1 score = 1000
drain ball #2 score = 6000
drain ball #3 score = 7000
drain ball #4 score = 12,000
drain ball #5 score = 13,000
I checked 5A on the score motor.. wires look to be fine and the contacts are closed till I rotated the score motor and the cam( I think it's called) allows the switch to open...
The way it alternates between 1000 and 5000 is confusing but almost to consistent to be a short... right? I'm guessing here..
Here's something else.....
Say I light the spinner to where it gives you a 1000 points... I turn the machine off and start a new game.. Score reels reset and ball goes back to Ball 1 lit, all looks normal but the 1000 lite for the spinner is still lit...
OK.. so I hit the spinner once while lit and it gives me 1000 pts .. drain the ball gives me 1000 pts..( end ball 1 score = 2000) Ball 2 pops put and 1000 light on the spinner is still lit... hit it gives me 1000 pts drain it and it gives me 1000 pts.. ( end ball 2 score = 4000 )
I won't type it all out but if I do a 5 ball game I end up with 10,000 pts this way.
If I hit those side bumpers on every ball, the drain bonus will alternate between 1000 and 5000
I'm confused on why the 1000 lite for the spinner stays lite after a game has ended and a new game is started? This is my only EM, are the bonuses Progressive? Haha I have no clue.
Quoted from way2wyrd:I think thats the match unit that alternates the pts.
I hate that type of match unit PITA
--Jeff
Yes it is, I'll look at that next... I've replaced it once and tried to buy two and Steve from Pinball Resource refused to sell me two of them. He said they are hard to come by and I guess he thought I was being greedy.. Watch mine will be broken again and I won't be able to get one...Haha .. Just my luck
Looks like the actuator that is hooked to the plate just slipped to the wrong side of the gear.. I placed it on top of the gear I guess that is how it goes.. Been a few years since I replaced it.. It looks to be activating the match unit now, But I still have the problem of too much bonus being scored. I'll have to put the PF back down and play a game to make sure.
Bill this is from my Space Mission schematic:
1000pt_rly.jpgAccording to your video, the errant bonus award is pulsed too many times. Since there's only one impulse cam which can operate the 1,000pt relay, it seems to me the issue would reside somewhere within the cam's associated circuits.
If the green-arrowed 5,000pt relay switch is stuck closed the 1000pt relay will always receive impulses from the score motor as the score motor rotates, when ever the PF is "live" for a game. (Cam 5 Sw"D" on my Space Mission. It looks like a B but it's a D.)
The issue could also be in the double bonus relay, ball index circuit etc but that's a lot of switches to be malfunctioning all at the same time.
As a wild guess, maybe the ratcheting bonus unit is making the 5000pt switch do weird scoring things since they're located right next to each other. I would take an *especially* close look at the 5,000pt relay switch gap and tight switch stacks.
You had also mentioned the 50pt switches only registering 20 points, which is also shown in your video. On my Space Mission, when the 50pt relay pulls in, it feeds through the same impulse cam 5 on switch "B". You might want to reference your own Odyssey schematic to see if both circuits also share a common cam and double-check & clean that 50pt relay switch.
Can the common cam create both problems? I don't think so but it's one of those oddities I came across while researching these troubles you're having.
10pt.jpg
Since the 50pt relay is next to the 5000pt relay it should be easy to check that switch also.
Playboard_Components.jpg
I recently had an odd intermittent problem with the operation of my two shooter lanes. The rivet head sheared off which made the white plastic a bit wobbly on the armature. I put in a new rivet and the issue was fixed. You might want to check that on your 50 & 5000pt relays.
IMG_4201.JPG
You had commented about the spinner operation in a previous post.
The spinner's 1000pt light will be carried over from ball to ball and from player to player. Whether it is on or off depends on which Swinging Target light happens to be lit. The light assignments for lighting the spinner are adjustable from a 2-prong Jones plug under the playfield:
Spinner & Extra Ball Adjustment:
Liberal=Lights in all 4 position- Yellow, Amber, Green, Amber
Medium= Lights in 3 positions- Amber, Green, Amber
Conservative= Lights in 2 positions- Amber, Amber
The function of the Setup relay is to switch the spinner from an unlit 100 points to a lit 1,000 points. The positions of the cam fingers on the Swinging Target Unit- and whether or not the game is "live" determines the status of the Setup relay, independent of which ball or player is up.
Question. Did you inherit these problems from a previous owner or was it once working correctly for you?
If I had a bad hip I'd unplug the two PF main Jones plugs and have someone else remove it from the cabinet and set it upside down somewhere convenient, since those two relays are at the bottom of the PF. It would also give a great opportunity to inspect everything for loosening screws etc.
Thank You Steve for a great post !.. I bought the machine as a project and had it working properly for well over a year or so.. I really don't play it, I bought it for my 77 year old Dad. He has played it almost daily for the last year. I'm not sure how long this has been an issue? I just know that the frequency of me having to put games on the machine for him had reduced.( I don't have it set up for free play. I just open the coin door and manually put them on) I see why now, it's easier to win when it scores 5x your Bonus...LOL
I'll try and look into the areas you suggested. Again Thanks !
Bill
I still haven't had a chance to get under the PF yet tonight. I just find it funny on the 50 point switches.. They alternate between 20 and 50 so say I hit the side switch 4 times I would accumulate 140 pts... 6 times 210 and so forth. It's almost to perfect to be wrong? I would think if I had a stuck switch it would be one or the other every time.
Not second guessing anyone here, just making sure everyone knows what I am experiencing.. I guess I could do another video and show some more things I think aren't right..LOL
I checked the 50 point relay and 5000 pt relay tonight.. They both looked to be gaped correctly.. The 50 pulses like it should when I hit side rails. The 5000 relay pulses when I hit the swinging target, but it doesn't pulse at all when the bonus is being counted down. I think all is good there too, the manual says it's pulsed by the swinging target unit
Quoted from SteveFury:You had also mentioned the 50pt switches only registering 20 points, which is also shown in your video.
It actually alternates between 20 and 5o pts.. without ever repeating ..It alternates 20,50,20,50,20 = 160 pts
Could the match unit have anything to do with scoring too much bonus? I'm certain that the little spring is broken. The nylon ratchet that rotates the cam(gear) of the contact wheels keeps slipping off top and goes behind it. I know this alternates some things but not sure if it has anything to do with the way the bonus is collected?
The match unit has three basic circuits, one runs the 00-10 back box lights and the second circuit goes through the 10's score reel bakelite boards and a few switches to reach the add credit solenoid. The third circuit activates/deactivates the Change relay.
The Change relay is responsible for doing two things. (1) it alternates the two SPECIAL outlanes, right to left when A+B+C is made. It (2) lights and unlights the two upper lane guides on either side of the center Extra ball lane. The Change relay is operated by a single switch which rides on a cam mounted on the middle of the armature shaft of the Match unit.
If it were mine I'd concentrate on finding the problem with the circuits I've outlined above. One of the circuits pulse's the bonus unit and the other pulse the 50pt relay.
That's assuming the oddyssey is the same as the Space Mission, which it likely is.
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Huntington, IN