(Topic ID: 19438)

WMS Hyperball issues

By PinballShawn

11 years ago


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#1 11 years ago

Is anyone familiar with this game? I'm having a few issues that I'm trying to resolve. First, the GI plug and pins are fried, apparently common for WMS. I'll have the board repinned this week and I'm going 100% LED do I shouldn't have that problem again. Anyway, at the moment the GI is disconnected. I also have no strobe lights, I'm not sure if they are fed from the GI connector or not.
One main problem is that the cooling (shooter) fan runs non-stop. As soon as the game is turned on it's running. I can't believe that's the way it's supposed to be. I found a burned solenoid fuse (2.5 amp slo-blo) replaced it, but it immediately starts to glow when the game is turned on. Shooter isn't engaged, nor is the ball feeder, (only the fan) to my knowledge that's it for solenoids on this game. Any ideas of where to look to try to see why this is happening? I've read where people wired the fan to the ball feeder power line, but I'd rather not do that.
Also, one row of lights (P) is super bright compared to the rest. I mean SUPER bright. Since the hot is on all the time and only ground is applied to make them light, I'm confused as to how that row is getting so much more power than the rest. It's hard to check voltage because even when they are on the lights 'flicker' to simulate lightning I guess. But it's hard to get a good reading of how many watts are going through this line because my meter is bouncing all over the place. Could this be caused by the driver board, or is it more likely a wire is physically touching something else? I've gone through each bulb socket and they look pretty good, I can't see anything touching or out of place at all.
Any help would be highly appreciated. I'm not a solid state guy, I restore EM games so I'm limited on SS knowledge, but I have a bunch of friends that are good with these games. So any thoughts will be relayed to them, it's just an odd machine and nobody is very familiar with it.

#2 11 years ago
Quoted from PinballShawn:

As soon as the game is turned on it's running. I can't believe that's the way it's supposed to be.

Believe it, this is how the game works.
The auger comes on when you start a game.
The hypercannon is the only coil in the game, there are no other solenoids.
The bright row is shorted, check the path of that 2.5 fuse.
The PF bolts chase, the GI on the sides are just on.
Does the game boot up and play?

#3 11 years ago

I see on rereading it doesn't.
Have you tried pulling out a little and re seating the 40 pin?
You should replace both sides while you are repinning.
There are test points on the power supply, go to pinwiki for the voltages.

#4 11 years ago

Yes, game plays fine. Shooter is strong, ball lift is good. All displays are bright and nice including the alpha numeric in the center. Gi is out, backbox is out, strobes are out. But I figured they were all related to the GI connector. It is completely toasted, should be fixed by next week.
So you're telling me that fan runs all the time? I read that it wasn't supposed to start until the game started. But I've read a lot of wrong shit in my life.
2.5 amp SB fuse is the solenoid fuse (F2) on the power supply. Game plays even with it blown (?)

#5 11 years ago

Haven't pulled the 40 pin. Figured I'd rebuild one board at a time since it's not my thing and I don't want to get ahead of myself. Some caps look bad, some bridge rectifiers may be questionable.

#6 11 years ago

Apparently, I just pulled F2 on my game and I can't see anything that isn't working.
Sounds like fix the GI pins and connector and you are good to go.

#7 11 years ago

That's kind of crazy isn't it? The thing that bothers me is that when I first checked it, it was blown (1.5 amp fast blow), so I replaced it with the correct 2.5amp slo-blo, but when it's turned on it glows orange, that's not cool. Something's wrong there. But if yours works fine without it, and mine worked fine with it blown, I'm even more confused about the whole thing.
Well, I still have to find what's sending all that voltage down the P circuit. I guess it's more of a wire tracing issue than anything else.

#8 11 years ago

I can help with some information here, I think. I'm guessing you don't have a schematic, I never could have repaired my machine without one.

First thing, my shooter cooling fan does run all the time, starts up as soon as I power on the machine. It's fed from the smaller "power switching board", I have the original and another one I bought and they both run the fan full time, so probably designed that way. I'm thinking it's because after a game is over, the shooter coil could still be very hot, it gets a real workout during play, and fan stays on to get it cold before next play.

The 2.5 fuse is labeled "Solenoid B+" in the schematic, but does not power the fan or shooter, those two are both powered by the power switching board in the lower right side of the backbox. Those two devices are the ONLY things powered by the power switching board. So, the 2.5 amp fuse is on the power supply board and sends 28VDC to several places:
1) Coin Lockouts - two small, roundish relays? in the coin door, one on each coin slot, fed with red and brown/gray wires. These (or their diodes) may be shorted. I would disconnect both, then power on and see if the fuse starts to glow.
2) Hyper Flash and Energy Flash lights in the playfield, red wire is the 28V. Also shows a wire from the Energy Flash light to a general illumination relay for the playfield. This may tie in to your GI problem, but the 28V would only power the relay to allow GI voltage (6.3AC) to flow. I can't seem to find the relay on the schematic other than where it's shown as fed from 28V, but could probably look at my machine to see how it's wired.
3) Player 1 and Player 2 flash lamps in the backglass. Each has 4 bulbs fed from the 28VDC, again with red wiring. Also powers a general illumination relay for the backbox, again, can't find the controlled 6.3VAC side on the schematic, just the 28V feed. I do know that as soon as a game is started, this relay turns off the backglass general illum so you don't get glare from them on the playfield.

Okay, approaching a short novel in length here.....
Your row of lights ("P") are common because they're all on column 7. Also shown on column 7 are lights "A" and "B", are these lights also bright? I had some lighting issues also, some not on, some always on, replacing transistors solved the issues. Even though they tested good with a quick meter check, they were not good. I'm going to find my post on this and add to this thread in a moment, and you'll see how I tested the new transistors without pulling the boards. The schematic is contradictory on this as to which transistor runs this column, show different pin numbers on the 2J12 connector on the two pages of schematic, so I would have to trace colors to verify which one it is.

Might be best to take this conversation to private messages, could get long and drawn out before it's over. I'm willing to help.....but don't know that the whole forum would benefit as HyperBall is such an oddball machine, and as some would say, not even a pinball, although based on the Williams Sys 6 architecture. Although if there is interest from others, just shout out and we can keep it in the forum, might be good for future info searches on this machine?

Randy

#9 11 years ago

I agree with tracelifter that the auger comes on when you start a game. The fan comes on as soon as you flip the power switch on.

I think you may want to disconnect the coin lockout, hyper flash, energy flash, player strobe flashes, and the two general illum relays from the red feed wires, then power up. Fuse should hold, as these are the only draws on the 28VDC. Then connect one at a time with a jumper while watching the fuse until you find the bad piece. Matter of fact, the playfield stuff (hyper flash, energy flash and relay) is shown as in series and the same for the backglass stuff (player 1 & 2 flash/strobe lights and relay). Might be able to disconnect all playfield stuff with one red wire and all backglass stuff with one red wire and make isolation of the fault easier.

#10 11 years ago

My quick and dirty transistor fix without pulling boards

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/whatta-hack-job

#11 11 years ago

Thanks Randy. Personally I think we should keep it here, just because in the future there will be another guy with the same question and he'll come across this thread via google. But if you prefer to PM me, I'm cool with that too. I do have full schematics on this game btw.
Yes, A and B lights are also bright. I would appreciate your knowledge in what transistor it is. I went through every single socket and wire for that circuit and they look brand new, I figured it was on the board somewhere.
I appreciate both of you guys help. I'm wicked with any EM game, but SS games are not my thing, but I have to learn more about them since I own a few now. I'm a little slow, but I learn fast.

#12 11 years ago

As for the lights on the "P" row being super bright, I remember now also trying to check with a meter, but since they "flicker", you can't get a good reading. I'll bet that you have a shorted transistor and full power is being sent to the lights instead of "flickering" power, making them so much brighter than the rest that are still flickering.

Yeah, let's keep this where Googlers can find it, there's not much info out there on this game.

#13 11 years ago

Replace Lamp Matrix Resistors? Those big ceramic resistors under the transistors? I wouldn't mind rebuilding the whole board when I do it. Any other suggestions of how to bullet proof this board a bit before I start ordering parts?

#14 11 years ago

Maniac, it's the game everyone loves to hate. But a few of us really love it. Shows what nostalgia is worth.

#15 11 years ago

Yeah those lights chase and the meter bounces.
Sounds like a transistor, the first place I would look for the short is the coindoor.
I don't have my manual and forgot about the coils on the coindoor, I couldn't figure what solenoids that fuse could go to.
Thanks for jumping in maniac and helping the OP out.

#16 11 years ago

The game is way better than Rapid Fire, try these settings.

hyperball.jpghyperball.jpg

#17 11 years ago

Yeah, I think John was talking about the big red ones (Lamp Matrix Resistors). I haven't replaced mine yet, but plan to. Ever since I reflowed all header pins, I've had no issues.
Also, sorry to say I have other plans for the evening and it's time to get ready. Hate to leave you hanging, but I'll look at my machine in the morning and let you know which transistor is the likely culprit for your stuck lights.

Yup, I still remember that HYPER feeling walking away from this machine when it was new in the arcades, nothing quite like it.

#18 11 years ago

No problem buddy, I'm not going anywhere. I'm not repinning the board until next week so I have time.
I want to thank all of you for helping out. This is a weird game and standard WMS sys-6-7 knowledge only goes so far. I feel pretty good about it and I have no doubt I'll be able to push this heavy brick in place within the next few weeks!

#19 11 years ago

The setting I think are part of the reason the game failed on route especially the bolt speed, it is almost impossible to hit the letters and keep the bolts at bay, the game just stole your money.
With these settings you can at least move up the levels.
That fan needs to run all the time, that hypercannon coil gets really hot.
I quit taking it to shows, the game won't handle repeated plays for hours and it isn't long before the balls are only shot halfway up the PF.
I have another fan and was thinking about installing it on the other side of the coil and adding fins to it.
Great game to have in a bigger collection, non pinball players and kids love this game.

#20 11 years ago
Quoted from maniac:

Yup, I still remember that HYPER feeling walking away from this machine when it was new in the arcades, nothing quite like it.

They do play fast when they are fresh, I bought mine new from John's Jukes out of the TT warehouse.

http://www.passionforpinball.com/colorpost2/HBALL_007.jpg

#21 11 years ago
Quoted from tracelifter:

the first place I would look is the coindoor.

This would be really easy, cut the two red wires at the left coindoor relay and that will isolate both of them. Then, if the fuse blows, it will be at the playfield or backglass strobe lights. When I look for the transistor tomorrow, I'll look at those locations and see if there's a way to just cut one wire for test (as they should be in series).

#22 11 years ago

Apparently someone already replaced my fan, it has a manufacture date on it a few years after HB was made. In looking through the coin door, someone has one of the coils hooked up backwards. Both have red/black wires on them, one is has the red on top, the other on bottom. The plug in connectors are all different ways, so someone had their fingers in it. I'll have to pull both when the power board is back in and see which is correct. Either way I have a bunch of work to do on this. A few of the caps are bulging so I might as well change them too. Man I love Em's, I would've been done with this days ago with some pliers and sandpaper.

#23 11 years ago

I did find the coin door issue. One of the connectors was broken on the coin door coil, it was just slightly touching the bracket. My wife said she got a light shock on the coin door, but I paid it no mind since she always seems to get shocked. I still have no way to know if that is, in fact, the problem since the boards are pulled out, but a broken wire touching ground is kind of tell-tale.
As for the big strobes, I'm not sure that they will work until the GI is fixed. If it's like my Firepower, they are in series so if one is out, they all are out. I'll know when I put the boards back in. But I will check them all with a meter and see if anything looks funny.

#24 11 years ago
Quoted from PinballShawn:

In looking through the coin door, someone has one of the coils hooked up backwards. Both have red/black wires on them, one is has the red on top, the other on bottom.

Shouldn't matter which way they're hooked up as long as the band of the diode is on the red wire side. Just looked at mine again, wouldn't even have to cut them, they are removeable spade terminals. Also noticed that both relays pull in and hold when main power switch is turned on.
(Hittin' the shower, had a little extra time while the wife watered her garden - 103 degrees today)

#25 11 years ago
Quoted from PinballShawn:

I did find the coin door issue. One of the connectors was broken on the coin door coil, it was just slightly touching the bracket. As for the big strobes, I'm not sure that they will work until the GI is fixed. If it's like my Firepower, they are in series so if one is out, they all are out.

Actually, I was wrong, they're wired in a series-parallel config. Look at page 26 of the schematic, upper right portion. Power feeds by red wire on 9J1-11 and 8J3-14, paralleled to lamps and relay.
The pairs of lamps are in true series, so if one burns out, two lamps go out.

And the connector touching the bracket just may be the only reason your fuse is glowing.... we hope.

#26 11 years ago

I'm pretty sure that was it, even without checking it, because it's obviously shorting out on the bracket. That's my kind of fix, I can actually see the problem. I would've never checked the coin door without you guys, it never occurred to me! Thinking of coils in the game, I thought 'shooter' because other than that it's just a big lightbox!

#27 11 years ago
Quoted from maniac:

I'll look at my machine in the morning and let you know which transistor is the likely culprit for your stuck lights.

Got a look into my machine this evening (was planning on this morning but.......had some auto repairs to get to, and then the mailman brought me a big goodie box with all my new computer parts and LED TV for my virtual pinball build, yay, got immersed into that for a few hours)

Q48 is the transistor for column 7 (All "P" lights and also "A" & "B"). It's a TIP42, $1.69 at radio shack. Turns out the schematic on sheet 11 for the control board logic diagram is correct, but all 8 pin numbers for 2J12/2P12 on the lamp wiring matrix on sheet 24 are incorrect. They actually should start with pin 1 at the top for the Yel-Gry wire, then run in numerical order (minus the #4 which is the key) to the bottom. Not sure how they screwed the drawing up like that.

So, that should get those controlled lights working correctly,
Randy

#28 11 years ago
Quoted from maniac:

(schematic) Also shows a wire from the Energy Flash light to a general illumination relay for the playfield....I can't seem to find the relay on the schematic other than where it's shown as fed from 28V.......general illumination relay for the backbox, again, can't find the controlled 6.3VAC side on the schematic, just the 28V feed

Looked for and found these two relays in my machine, also found some relay wiring info on the schematic, but it's contradictory between sheets of the drawing....Not going to worry about it at the moment, the shorted wire you found is the likely problem.

#29 11 years ago

Man, I truly appreciate it. I'll pick one up this week and see what happens. Been making a parts list for my boards. My buddy strongly suggested reflowing all the pins on all the boards, so we're probably going to do that too. That 30 pin connector has probably been on there since it was new, so it may be good to give everything a once over.
I'll let you know what happens, and again thank you. You've really helped me.

#30 11 years ago

Oh, and good luck on the virtual pin. I have a nice classic cab put aside for one in the near future. I've already built a Mame machine, looking forward to a nice VP table too. They are very cool.

#31 11 years ago

I reflowed all pins on the cpu and driver board, think it was 188 of them. Only took a couple hours. Seems like every time I turned the machine on, it had different problems, but after the reflow it has had 0 issues (3-4 months now). As you probably know, remove all the old solder with a sucker before adding new.

I've never really played with computer innards, deepest I ever got was installing a wireless card, so building one is a little daunting. The motherboard manual is definitely written in Geek Greek, but I'm going to dive in and see what happens. The only way I'll ever own Medieval Madness, AFM, Monster Bash, Cactus Canyon, Scared Stiff, and the other top titles will be virtual, the $$ factor to own the real ones is beyond me. Have played a virtual machine and will agree that it's nothing like a real machine, but closer than I thought it would be. Also plan to build a Mame cabinet someday, to be able to play the old classic arcade games.

Quoted from PinballShawn:

I'm wicked with any EM game

You may have some payback knowledge for me, then. My Spirit of 76 has recently been stuck on two player when I start a game. The 1 player light shows on the backglass, (the one where it says 1-4 can play), but after the first ball drains, the next ball scores on the player 2 reel. The game then proceeds to alternate between players as if you're playing a two player game. The exception is that when player 1's fifth ball is played, the game is over, no fifth ball for player two.
When I play a two player game, things are normal, the 2 player light shows on the backglass and player two gets a fifth ball.

I only noticed this recently, so haven't found time to investigate. You might be able to point me in the right direction and save some effort. I had a similar problem in the past, after playing a two player (or 3 or 4) game, the "coin unit" (labeled such and located just behind the chimes in the cabinet bottom) was not fully resetting. I made sure that it is resetting fully now, but this new weird problem still happens.

Have done some repairs on this machine in the past and have a full schematic, will eventually find time to fix it, but you may be able to save me some valuable time....I could use every moment

Randy

#32 11 years ago
Quoted from tracelifter:

The game is way better than Rapid Fire, try these settings

I've seen this page before, but never set these values, just did, and will play some later to see how they work. I had gone through the full menu after I got the machine working 3-4 months ago and had changed a few of them.

No wonder I have only completed the Reflex Wave one time, 00 is easiest, 09 is hardest, factory set was 05. I had mine set at hardest, 09. Had about two seconds to hit the lit target

Quoted from tracelifter:

They do play fast when they are fresh, I bought mine new from John's Jukes out of the TT warehouse

Whaaat? Bought NEW? Was this in '82, or did JJ have NIB machines at a later date?

#33 11 years ago

I don't have a Spirit, but I've worked on GTB's before. First place to check is in the reset bank. Gottliebs are strange in that instead of a stepper they use that bank for ball count, number or players, etc. If I had to venture a guess, I think it would be there. If I remember correctly it always starts on one player, then if you hit the start button again it drops the Two-player relay. Maybe the Two player relay isn't resetting fully? I like that game, but GTB's reset system is a pain. Probably why I fix them and sell them and keep the WMS and BLY's. I only have a few GTB's. Does that have those AX relays or the older style? I have a buddy that has a Spirit, he's very familiar with the inner workings of it, I can always give him a call and see what he says.
As for the Virtual Pin, I had the same idea. Like you it's the only way I'll have A-title pins in my collection. Unless I find one burned in a fire, missing all the boards and the backglass, and then maybe. My inner cheapness will not allow me to spend thousands of dollars on a pinball machine. It's just not going to happen. So, like you, I need a VP or HP if I want a MM or AFM. Personally I don't get it, they're both good games but when I see people dropping $10,000 on a pin I can't believe it. I've been around the pin world for a while and I've NEVER seen prices like they are now. People apparently have a lot of money laying around to drop on a machine. Personally I'd buy a truck or something with that kind of money.

#34 11 years ago

Oh, if you decide to build a Mame, pm me. I'll burn you a dvd of all the roms and artwork and samples etc. That will save you months of time of finding and dowloading them one at a time. I've been downloading by year in alphabetical order, so I have everything from 75-84, and some later games, plus poker, slots, touchmaster, etc. It's yours for the asking my friend.

#35 11 years ago

I've seen this page before, but never set these values, just did, and will play some later to see how they work. I had gone through the full menu after I got the machine working 3-4 months ago and had changed a few of them.
No wonder I have only completed the Reflex Wave one time, 00 is easiest, 09 is hardest, factory set was 05. I had mine set at hardest, 09. Had about two seconds to hit the lit target

Whaaat? Bought NEW? Was this in '82, or did JJ have NIB machines at a later date?

2006, I bought a NIB Black Knight and Hyperball, they sat in the Time Travel warehouse for 26 years.
Steve played it and he liked it.

673255495_6p9VW-M.jpg673255495_6p9VW-M.jpg 673255412_9vanP-M.jpg673255412_9vanP-M.jpg

#36 11 years ago
Quoted from maniac:

No wonder I have only completed the Reflex Wave one time, 00 is easiest, 09 is hardest, factory set was 05. I had mine set at hardest, 09. Had about two seconds to hit the lit target

09? LOL! Game over at coin up.
There is a mod to make the game full auto, you can flood the game with so many balls alternating the triggers you can't hit the targets.
The Hypercannon already gets overheated so this mod to me is useless and I can imagine it would take out the coil in short order.

#37 11 years ago

When I first brought the HB home I guess the guy had it set to easy levels because I made it to the third reflex wave on my second game, my score was in the millions. I thought I was a natural or something Then I pulled everything apart and changed the batteries. The next game I got wiped out! Couldn't figure out what happened, and why I couldn't score more than 25,000. After a few games it dawned on me that it defaulted back to the factory set-up. What a rip off man! Jeez...
Your Black Knight is awesome man! I'm in the market for one myself. That's just one of the greatest! How lucky to find a new one, I'd wax it with a diaper once a week!

#38 11 years ago

I bought this when everyone was going gaga over POTC, Sterns greatest game ever and nobody had even seen it.
Paid crazy money for it but at that time there were no repro PFs or plastics and all I could find in my area were overpriced blown out junkers.
I do keep it clean and waxed, the game still looks and plays like new and I still have the box.

#39 11 years ago
Quoted from maniac:

No wonder I have only completed the Reflex Wave one time, 00 is easiest, 09 is hardest, factory set was 05. I had mine set at hardest, 09. Had about two seconds to hit the lit target

Quoted from tracelifter:

09? LOL! Game over at coin up.

Quoted from PinballShawn:

I made it to the third reflex wave on my second game

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here. There are normally "Waves" of balls, but the 5th and 9th? waves are the "Reflex" waves, where only one random target is lit and you have only a certain amount of time to hit it. The center display score starts at 20,000 and counts down until you hit the target. I think there are 20 opportunities to hit the light, you can totally miss on the first five, but if you miss any after that (display score counts down to 0), the wave is over and the display says "You Missed".

I just played a game with the new setting of 00, wow, super easy. I scored 15-18K on each target hit, and noticed near the end of the wave the targets beginning value rose to 25 or maybe 27K, then got a bonus of 50K for completing the wave.

No wonder I only made it through this once on the hardest setting. If you didn't hit the lit target within a couple seconds, you lost the whole battle. On the easiest setting, I'll bet you have 8 seconds or more to hit it while the bonus value decreases. I'm going to set this at factory setting of 05 and see how well I do, but will probably lower it to 00 when I have guests so they do well.

By the way, I believe my highest score so far was 1.7 million and 16 or 17 ball waves completed.
Not sure because the machine only holds the high score and initials until it's powered off, I have the new Rom that will cure that from John, but have not installed it yet.

#40 11 years ago

That's the reflex wave. It says that on the alphanumeric when it starts That's the only reason I know what it was called.
I need to get that rom myself. Where can I find it? Pointless to have high scores with initials if it doesn't save it.

#41 11 years ago
Quoted from PinballShawn:

reflex wave. It says that on the alphanumeric when it starts.....I need to get that rom myself. Where can I find it?

When you said third reflex wave, I thought you may have meant third normal wave. You were definitely kicking the games' butt then

The updated Rom is at http://www.pinballroms.com/eproms/sys37.html
It says IC14 L-6, which is a typo, actually is IC20 L-6, but if you order it, you'll get the IC20.
Still haven't installed mine....

#42 11 years ago

But it was too easy. I haven't played that game since 82, should take a few games before you start hitting the millions. It needs to be set in the middle in my opinion. Challenging, but not disheartening.

2 months later
#43 11 years ago

Well, I thought I followed all the rules but something has gone haywire. I replaced all the bulbs in the PF and the backboard. Then I replaced Q17-Q28 with TIP41Cs; Q30, Q31, Q33, Q34, Q36, Q37, Q39, Q40, Q42, Q43, Q45, Q46, Q48, Q49, Q51 & Q52 with TIP42Cs; R11, R12, R15, R16, R19, R20, R23,R24, R27, R28, R31 & R32 with .4 ohm 5 watts 1% resistors; R34-R50 with 27 ohm 3 watts 5% resisitors; reflowed every solder joint on the back of CPU assembly board and the control board; replaced IC5, IC9 & IC11 with new 6821 PIA ICs using 40 pin IC sockets, just in case; replaced almost every fuse and replaced the ROM chip to hold the high scores. At power up, some of the PF lights are lit and then the 8 amp F3 fuse blows. I never have any of the lights in columns K, L or M. Resistor R45 on the Control Board gets so hot that it melts both solder connections.

The fan turns on but that's about it. I have checked and rechecked connections. I cleaned all the pins on the boards with a Dremel wire brush and wiped them with DeOxit. I've pulled the PF back out twice and made sure there wasn't a short someplace. The only thing I haven't done is replace the 40 pin interboard connector 2P1. They are being shipped and I should have them by Friday and that's my next project. I've spent a lot of hours on this machine and haven't played one full game yet. I have the schematic and can follow along, somewhat.

What have I done wrong?

102_3390.JPG102_3390.JPG

3 weeks later
#44 11 years ago

I wish I could help you man. I'm an EM guy, except for a few WMS games. I was thrilled to get mine working right, but it did pretty much work when I got it minus a few problems.

#45 11 years ago

Last time I was home I played a game on this thing.. It's coming along..

3 years later
#46 8 years ago

Mine is finally running bump!

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