(Topic ID: 289096)

Wms. FAST BALL won't play 2nd Player

By JethroP

2 years ago


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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by HowardR
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#1 2 years ago

I can't think what to do next. I need help.
Took in this machine as trade and don't know its history. Press the credit button and it plays 1 player fine. The problem is trying to play 2 players.

If I press the credit button after the 1st player reset, it activates the 2nd coin relay and lights "2 players."
Then after the 1st player 3rd out, the score motor runs and resets the strikes, outs, and innings. Also the player unit trips and activates the 2nd player. Then, during all this the bank resets and the game over unit trips, thus.... Game over.

It's like it's all reset to start the 2nd player except it's Game over. If I manually relatch the game over relay I can play the 2nd player fine, until 3 outs.

Why can't I play the second player? Schematic attached.

PDF0250-01.pdfPDF0250-01.pdf
#2 2 years ago

I would check the make/break on the Player relay and maybe the make/break on the 2nd Coin relay.

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#3 2 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Then, during all this the bank resets and the game over unit trips, thus.... Game over.

What are the Lock relay and Tilt relay doing when this happens?

#4 2 years ago

The player relay goes to player 2 after player 1 finishes his game. The second 2nd coin relay resets when the bank resets after player 1 finishes his game. Then game over relay trips. The contacts are cleaned and opening/closing properly.

The lock and tilt relays do not change state during the reset to second player, and remain unchanged at game over.

#5 2 years ago

Bump!
After the 1st player 3 outs the game resets and turns on 2nd player for about 1-2 seconds then Game Over relay trips. If I manually reset the game over relay I can play out the second player...so it appears that the only problem is to figure out what is tripping the game over relay prematurely. I still can't find the solution to the problem.

#6 2 years ago

I keep coming back to the 2nd coin relay. Have you checked every sw. on it? I would also keep an eye out for a short.

#7 2 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

I keep coming back to the 2nd coin relay. Have you checked every sw. on it? I would also keep an eye out for a short.

I have checked the 2nd coin relay many times already, unless I’m still missing something there.

#8 2 years ago

Something out of alignment in the Innings unit?

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Something out of alignment in the Innings unit?

No, but appears to have 2 different resets, one for 1 inning games, and another reset for full reset. I’ll have to look into how that’s working.

#10 2 years ago

I wonder if the #1 hold sw. is not holding for #2 in this circuit.

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#11 2 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

I wonder if the #1 hold sw. is not holding for #2 in this circuit.

I'll check that after lunch.

Meanwhile, I find this interesting: I've been investigating. When the 1st game ends, if i pull the wire to the score motor to stop it mid cycle while it's cuing up the 2nd player, the game goes into 2nd player. Then I put the wire back and the score motor finishes its cycle everything is fine and I can play 2nd player. But if I don't stop the score motor between games the game over energizes after 1st player and it's game over! This makes no sense to me. It's almost like the score motor is turning too fast. Could it be switch bounce?

#12 2 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

I wonder if the #1 hold sw. is not holding for #2 in this circuit.

Not sure what’s supposed to be happening in that circuit.

What happens when I press the credit button is that #1 player start and #2 player start relays energize, seeminly at the same time. They are on the bank so they stay "tripped". Then the bank resets once and those 2 relays reset, the game over (G.O.) relay trips (it is on the bank too), the bank resets one more time resetting the G.O. relay, and the game is ready to play.

If I press the credit one more time the 2nd coin relay energizes. This is on the bank so once it energizes it stays tripped.

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

When the 1st game ends, if i pull the wire to the score motor to stop it mid cycle while it's cuing up the 2nd player, the game goes into 2nd player. Then I put the wire back and the score motor finishes its cycle everything is fine and I can play 2nd player. But if I don't stop the score motor between games the game over energizes after 1st player and it's game over! This makes no sense to me. It's almost like the score motor is turning too fast. Could it be switch bounce?

Well, very interesting and great find. Might be worth doing this: https://homepinballrepair.com/em-score-motor-adjusting-repair-pinball/

#14 2 years ago

I went through and readjusted every switch according to this procedure. No change. I believe this problem has plagued this particular machine for the past owners and they all gave up on fixing it. I am about to give up too. I believe there is a wire connected wrong and short of tracing every wire, I don't think I'll find the problem.

#15 2 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

I believe there is a wire connected wrong and short of tracing every wire, I don't think I'll find the problem.

I think you are definitely on the verge of getting it with that score motor run wire pull, so take a little time off and mull it over.

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

so take a little time off and mull it over

To make matters worse, the schematic is wrong/incomplete. For instance, there is a relay that makes a buzzing sound at the end of 1st player and beginning of second player. It's on a set of contacts on the 3rd out relay. It's not on the schematic. But apparently it was part of production because I saw (heard it described) on a youtube video of this title. There are also additional wired contacts on the inning stepper that are not on the schematic. These are only a few of the discrepancies I have found. So I'm not even sure how it is supposed to be wired, and I can't get into the head of the designer. Seems kind of futile to start tracing wires if I don't know where they're actually supposed to go.

I've put paper between switch contacts and stepper contacts experimenting looking for shorts. Nothing.

I've cut a lot of the cat gut and separated the wires in the harness looking for a sliver of metal or something causing a short. I haven't found anything suspicious. I've looked over and over at the switches on the relay bank and score motor. Looking for shorting leaves. Nothing. I've looked over the Jones plugs for shorted solder connections or shorted receptacles. Nothing.

I've taken videos of the score motor and game over relay operation trying to pinpoint the split second the game over relay trips (when it's not supposed to trip). I thought I was on the right track there but that's where I hit a roadblock, as I realized the schematic doesn't show the additional innings stepper connections.

#17 2 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

I thought I was on the right track there but that's where I hit a roadblock, as I realized the schematic doesn't show the additional innings stepper connections.

That is just maddening.

#18 2 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

The second 2nd coin relay resets when the bank resets after player 1 finishes his game. Then game over relay trips.

That sounds fishy. If the game resets the 2nd coin relay prematurely, I can see how the Game Over relay might trip since the state indicating that a 2nd player should play is gone. With the 2nd coin relay reset, it's basically a 1 player game again and player 1 is done (3 outs or whatever triggers game over). The Game Over relay doesn't know any better.

This feels like a timing issue to me. The trip relay bank resets on the 6A motor switch which is at the very end of the Score Motor Cycle. By then the Out Unit should have reset (on motor switch 3C) which should have opened the circuit into the Game Over relay. It may be that that sequence isn't happening in the right order which might explain why interrupting the Score Motor would affect the result.

If this game has a motor service jack you could try turning the motor slowly by hand after triggering the last out to see when things happen. Alternatively you could block the normally closed switch on the 2nd coin relay that leads into the Game Over relay. If the Game Over relay trips anyway you may have a short somewhere between that switch and the Game Over relay. But if Game Over doesn't trip the problem may be related to the relative timing of the 2nd Coin relay and the Out Unit reset.

Maybe as a sanity check just see if the Score Motor cams are configured properly. They should match the configuration on the schematic. When the Score Motor first starts up the switches on the Index cam lift up out of the Index cam well. After that the switches on the other cams should fire in order with cam 1 happening first and cam 6 happening last.

/Mark

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

If this game has a motor service jack you could try turning the motor slowly by hand after triggering the last out to see when things happen

If I turn the motor by hand after the 1st player 3rd out, everything reset properly and I can play the 2nd player.

#20 2 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Maybe as a sanity check just see if the Score Motor cams are configured properly. They should match the configuration on the schematic.

They do.

#21 2 years ago

Here's a video...I mounted the SM so you could see it and the bank together. The one relay you see dropped on the bank to start with is the 2nd coin relay.

#22 2 years ago

In your video you can see that the #6 cam (or 7th cam from the left) triggers the trip bank reset as expected. But I think you can also see that the #6 cam and #5 cam are in lock step. They happen at the same time. I don't think that's right. The Inning Step Up fires on the 5A switch which is happening at the same time as the trip bank reset on the 6A switch. I'm not sure that's the problem but it seems they could have put the trip bank reset switch on the #5 cam and left out the #6 cam if that's the way things were intended to work.

How does the Innings Unit work? I don't see a reset coil for it on the schematic. Does it step forward continuously or does it reset somehow?

Beware that the #6 cam switch runs at 120 volts so you don't want to mess with that without adequate safety precautions. But if the #5 cam switches were allowed to complete before the # 6 cam switch activated I wonder if it would work as it should.

Also, it would help to know when the Out Unit resets relative to the trip bank.

#23 2 years ago

Whoa...getting closer to solving this! But first, let me answer your questions then read my revelation.

Quoted from MarkG:

How does the Innings Unit work? I don't see a reset coil for it on the schematic. Does it step forward continuously or does it reset somehow?

There are two reset coils on the innings unit. See picture and schematic. The larger coil resets one innings at a time. The smaller coil holds a lever that, when the larger coil fires, would reset the stepper to the beginning (position 0). In my case, I have the game (selectable) set for one inning play. I've tried the selection in both plugs and doesn't make a difference in this problem.

Quoted from MarkG:

Also, it would help to know when the Out Unit resets relative to the trip bank.

The outs unit does reset as shown on cam #3.

Now here's what I discovered. There are 4 positions on the innings unit (I'll call them 0,1,2, and 3). Position 0 is the fully reset position. Position 1, 2, and 3 are same as inning numbers. At the start of playing the innings unit is on 1 (obviously, inning #1). When you coin up, the innings unit resets to 0 then 1 then 0 then 1 and ready to start a game.

When playing 2 players, after the 1st player 3rd out, the innings unit resets to 0 then 1 then 0....but never advances the second time to 1. Instead goes to G.O.

I manually advanced the innings unit to 2nd inning before the 1st player 3 outs, and during all the resetting, the innings unit only decremented to inning 1 and THEREFORE was able to play 2nd player. Make sense? So it appears (to me) that the innings unit is not advancing enough times during the reset.

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#24 2 years ago

I don't see the number of innings adjustment on the schematic, do you? What does the Inning Unit do on a 2 player, 3 innings per game setting at the start and after player 1 finishes?

Quoted from JethroP:

When you coin up, the innings unit resets to 0 then 1 then 0 then 1 and ready to start a game.

I don't understand how the Innings Unit is intended to work. Resetting twice (0, 1, 0, 1) doesn't make sense to me. Could it be that it's keeping track of innings to play, as indicated by the lights on the schematic, rather than current inning? So resetting by just 1 inning instead of back to the beginning might be akin to an extra ball.

Things make a little more sense if the Inning Unit positions are in reverse order to represent innings left to play. Then the Game Over circuit makes a little more sense too:
Fast Ball Game Over (resized).jpgFast Ball Game Over (resized).jpg
So if the Inning Unit is in position 3 (3 innings left to play) or position 2 (2 innings left to play) Game Over can't happen since there's no path through the Inning unit. Once the Inning Unit is in position 1 (1 inning left to play) then the number of outs on the Out unit starts to matter. Once 3 outs are reached the path through the Out Unit and Inning Unit is complete and the Game Over relay fires unless the 2nd Coin relay is tripped for a 2nd player.

If there is a 2nd player the Out Unit would have to reset to 0 outs before the 2nd Coin relay clears as described earlier. The Inning Unit would only really need to move if it's a 2 or 3 inning game.

#25 2 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

I don't see the number of innings adjustment on the schematic, do you?

Well, now I question my own sanity. I thought there was an adjustment. At least, I think I remember seeing the innings display go from 1 to 2 to 3 to game over in the past. Now I can't see how that happened, or even if it did. The only adjustment I see in the backbox is for Credit or Novelty, and that doesn't seem to affect how many innings you can play.

I can manually index the innings stepper all the way through 3 innings, but can't see how to have it do that during actual play.

Quoted from MarkG:

I don't understand how the Innings Unit is intended to work. Resetting twice (0, 1, 0, 1) doesn't make sense to me.

So I checked again. In fact, resetting a new game the innings unit does go (0,1,0,1) and the game starts fine. HOWEVER, if you are playing 2 players, at the end of 1st player (3rd out), the reset goes 0,1,0. It doesn't advance the second time to 1. I'm thinking that if it did reset to 1 then the 2nd player could play.

Or maybe the problem is that it is resetting an extra time instead of 0,1 it is resetting 0,1,0,1....making a full revolution instead of only 1/2 a revolution.

#26 2 years ago

More info. When I reset my game the SM and/or running man unit (RMU) seems to run longer than the games I've watched on youtube, albeit it's not really clear on youtube what is happening during the reset. But I've observed something else may be a clue here.

If at the end of 1st player 3 outs, when the SM starts, I pull the plug at exactly the time the SM makes 1/2 a revolution....stopping at the index notch. I can reinsert the SM plug and the motor remains stopped, however, the RMU continues its cycle and 3rd out relay remains energized until the RMU comes to the end of its cycle. Is the 3rd out relay supposed to remain energized after I pull the SM plug and remain energized until the RMU stops? Seems like the GO relay trips the instant the 3rd out relay deenergizes.

#27 2 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

resetting a new game the innings unit does go (0,1,0,1) and the game starts fine. HOWEVER, if you are playing 2 players, at the end of 1st player (3rd out), the reset goes 0,1,0. It doesn't advance the second time to 1.

I think that's because the Inning Unit step up fires on motor cam 5, and game over trips at motor cam 6 when the 2nd coin is cleared. But at least in your game they happen simultaneously since the cams are aligned so while the step up might get the very beginning of a pulse, the game over cuts it off right away.

I'd chase down a couple of Fast Ball owners here or at pinballowners.com to see if their 5 and 6 cams are aligned or offset.

#28 2 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

I think I remember seeing the innings display go from 1 to 2 to 3 to game over in the past. Now I can't see how that happened, or even if it did. The only adjustment I see in the backbox is for Credit or Novelty, and that doesn't seem to affect how many innings you can play.

I think in novelty mode you get extra innings by reaching the high score thresholds. Otherwise it's always just one inning.

I'd like you to try an experiment to determine if there's a path through the Out and Inning Unit when there shouldn't be:
Fast Ball Game Over 2 (resized).jpgFast Ball Game Over 2 (resized).jpg
With the game unplugged clip your meter to the yellow wire and to the wire in the red box. Reset the Inning Unit manually. Then reset the Out Unit and manually step it through all four positions. When you reach the 3rd out position you should see the resistance between those two wires drop to an ohm or less which would indicate that the path is closed and the Game Over relay can fire. If you measure an ohm or less when the Out unit is in any of its first three positions, or when the Inning Unit is in positions 2 or 3, that might explain what you're seeing.

Alternatively you can make a 24 volt bulb tester with a couple of 12 volt automotive bulbs wired in series. Clip one lead to the wire in the red box and the other wire to the black wire on the right. The if the game is on the bulbs should only come on when the Out unit is at 3 and the Inning Unit is at 0 or 1.

#29 2 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

With the game unplugged clip your meter to the yellow wire and to the wire in the red box. Reset the Inning Unit manually. Then reset the Out Unit and manually step it through all four positions. When you reach the 3rd out position you should see the resistance between those two wires drop to an ohm or less which would indicate that the path is closed and the Game Over relay can fire.

I did this and the results are: I measure 0.4 ohms in all three out positions, and in all the inning positions. A total of 16 measurements. Is this possible or did I make a mistake?

#30 2 years ago

What's the state of the Tilt relay? The Make/Break switch could be providing a path around the two units. If you block the Make/Break switch with a piece of paper do you get the same measurements?

#31 2 years ago

I have a question. What all Relays are in the Relay Bank? It seems to me when playing a 2 Player
game, after the 2nd coin (credit) is deposit, the Bank shouldn't reset after the 1st Player's 3rd out.
When it does, the 2nd Coin Relay is latched to stay and that relay needs to be in the unlatched position
for the 2nd Player to be able to play. I'd like to know if any of the Relays in the Bank need to be reset
after the 1st Player gets the 3rd out..
If you look at the lights on the schematic, with the 2nd Coin Relay re-latched, the "2 Can Play" will not
stay lit. It'll go back to "1 Can Play".
It seems like the Transfer Relay would pulse after the 3rd Out, but it's also remaining energized
because the Player Relay isn't energizing. If the Player Relay energized, it would cut the circuit
to the Transfer Relay which in turn would cut the circuit to the Relay Bank Coil..
So if you consentrate on the Player Relay circuitry, there's a Score Motor switch (4A I think)
and a set of switches in the Transfer Relay which means the Transfer Relay should remain energized
until the Player Relay gets energized.
So in short, my guess would be that the Player Relay's not energizing, thus the Transfer and Reset Bank is..

#32 2 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

What's the state of the Tilt relay? The Make/Break switch could be providing a path around the two units. If you block the Make/Break switch with a piece of paper do you get the same measurements?

The trip relay is latched. I blocked the Make/break switch and got the same results.

Quoted from Mopar:

What all Relays are in the Relay Bank?

These are the 5 relays:

Tilt
Game Over
2nd Coin
2 Start
1 Start

Quoted from Mopar:

If you look at the lights on the schematic, with the 2nd Coin Relay re-latched, the "2 Can Play" will not stay lit.

But if I manually relatch the game over relay (if I've coined up for 2 players) the "2 can play" lights and I can play the second player. Everything is set to play the 2nd player if I relatch the game over relay. The player relay has switched to 2nd player. The bases have cleared. Everything has reset except the innings stepper did not advance to the 1st inning and the game over relay tripped.

#33 2 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

But if I manually relatch the game over relay (if I've coined up for 2 players) the "2 can play" lights and I can play the second player. Everything is set to play the 2nd player if I relatch the game over relay.

So you're saying after the 1st Player gets 3 outs, The Relay Bank isn't energizing and
the 2nd Coin Relay is in the trip (down) position?
That tripped 2nd Coin Relay should cut all circuits to the Game Over Relay..
Edit: I might add, except for the Lock Relay circuitry to the Game Over Relay. That
schematics must be off. That Lock Relay has to have an open set of contacts
after start up.

#34 2 years ago
Quoted from Mopar:

So you're saying after the 1st Player gets 3 outs, The Relay Bank isn't energizing and
the 2nd Coin Relay is in the trip (down) position?

No. That's not what I am saying.

After the 1st player gets 3 outs the relay bank resets two times. The first time it resets the 2nd coin relay. It resets again and then the game over relay trips. The 2nd player never gets a chance to play. But for more information, if I then lift and relatch the game over relay I can play out the 2nd player, 3 outs and then game over.

I'm thinking the game over relay wouldn't trip before the 2nd player gets to bat if the innings stepper would advance to 1st inning during all the resetting, but it doesn't. See post #24 and #25.

#35 2 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

the "2 can play" lights and I can play the second player.

Quoted from JethroP:

The first time it resets the 2nd coin relay.

This is what I don't get. If you lift and latch the Game Over Relay, the "2 Can Play" is
lit, but yet the 2nd Coin Relay is reset. The "2 Can Play" is lit when the 2nd Coin
Relay is tripped. With it's latched, the "1 Can Play" is lit.
Yes, with the 2nd Coin Relay latched, the Game Over is suppose to energize.
I'm pretty certain the Relay Bank when on a 2 Player game isn't suppose to
energize the 1st time which would allow the 2nd Coin Relay not to reset which
would keep the circuitry's path to the Game Over Relay broken..

#36 2 years ago
Quoted from Mopar:

I'm pretty certain the Relay Bank when on a 2 Player game isn't suppose to
energize the 1st time which would allow the 2nd Coin Relay not to reset which
would keep the circuitry's path to the Game Over Relay broken..

You may be right. If that's the case, then why is the bank resetting 2 times?

#37 2 years ago

If bank only reset one time I think things would work as intended.

#38 2 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

then why is the bank resetting 2 times?

I'm thinking because the Outs Unit hasn't reset, and once the 2nd Coin Relay is reset, it
tells the machine it's only on 1 Player, and he has 3 outs..
When on a 2 Player game, as the 1st Player gets the 3rd out, check if the Player Relay
gets tripped. It should, but if not, it will reset the Relay Bank. If this is the case, then I'd
check if the bottom set of switches on the 4th Score Motor's cam is making good contact
during the Score Motor's revolution. Also a set of contacts in the Transfer Relay is in the
Player Relay's circuitry..
With the named Relays in the Relay Bank, I'm maybe thinking that the Relay Bank should
only reset at start up. Actually, it would seem that that has to be the case. The 2nd Coin Relay
can't be reset and still be able to play a two Player game..
I might add. There's a set of contacts in the 2nd Coin Relay and Start Relay that's also in the
Player Relay's circuitry..

#39 2 years ago
Quoted from Mopar:

When on a 2 Player game, as the 1st Player gets the 3rd out, check if the Player Relay
gets tripped.

It does trip immediately at the 3rd out.

#40 2 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

It does trip immediately at the 3rd out.

Okay, and does the Transfer Relay trip about the same time, then quickly lets loose but
the Player Relay remains tripped?

#41 2 years ago
Quoted from Mopar:

Okay, and does the Transfer Relay trip about the same time, then quickly lets loose but
the Player Relay remains tripped?

Yes and yes.

#42 2 years ago

Okay, all that is working okay. Now the thing is, if the Transfer Relay is not energized at
the end of the Score Motor's revolution which is when the Relay Bank's Coil energizes,
the circuit to the Relay Bank should be broken. There's a set of contacts in the Transfer
Relay that has to be closed for the Relay Bank to reset. Those contacts are closed when
the Transfer Relay is energized. If the Transfer Relay makes then breaks at the beginning
of the Score Motor's revolution, why is the Relay Bank resetting? I'm sure you checked
the Transfer Relay's sets of contacts for proper adjustment. None are slightly touching when
they're suppose to be opened? And of course the solder tabs all look okay?

#43 2 years ago

I'm so friggin' burned out on this problem.... Need to make a correction/clarification.
The bank does not reset twice after player 1, 3rd out. It resets twice at the coin up for 1st player. It only resets once after 3rd out 1st player.

There are 4 positions on the innings unit (I'll call them 0,1,2, and 3). Position 0 is the fully reset position. Position 1, 2, and 3 are same as inning numbers. At the start of playing the innings unit is on 1 (obviously, inning #1). When you coin up, the innings unit resets to 0 then 1 then 0 then 1 and ready to start a game. In this case, the bank resets twice.

When playing 2 players, after the 1st player 3rd out, the innings unit resets to 0 then 1 then 0....but never advances the second time to 1. Instead goes to G.O.

#44 2 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

It only resets once after 3rd out 1st player.

Yea, if the Transfer Relay is not energized when the Relay Bank resets, it shouldn't
be resetting. If you look at the Relay Bank's circuitry which is toward the top of the
schematic, it shows an open set of points while the Transfer Relay is not energized.
There's no other route for the Relay Bank's coil to energize without going through
that Transfer Relay's set of contacts..
So for sure the Transfer Relay is not energized when the Relay Bank resets?
I'll take another look at the schematics. See where maybe something could be
crossing paths..

#45 2 years ago
Quoted from Mopar:

So for sure the Transfer Relay is not energized when the Relay Bank resets?

The bank only resets when the transfer relay is energized.

So what do you think of this: The transfer relay (TR) briefly energizes at the 1st player 3rd out. During that time the bank resets. While the SM is completing its cycle the TR is deenergized and the GO trips. NOW...I tried holding the TR armature plate in the activated position at the end of 1st player 3rd out until the end of the SM cycle and the GO never tripped, the innings unit advanced to 1, and player 2 is ready to play! So...could it be then that the TR is dropping out too soon?

#46 2 years ago

I now did noticed another circuit to the Transfer Relay. That Relay does hold,
but not before it's on 3 outs and the Inning is on 0. So it looks like it may reset
at the end of a game, but I don't see how it would before the 2nd Player has finished
their turn. Can you confirm one more time that when on a 2 Player game, and
the 1st Player gets the 3rd out, the Transfer Relay is not energized when the Relay
Bank resets.

#47 2 years ago
Quoted from Mopar:

Can you confirm one more time that when on a 2 Player game, and
the 1st Player gets the 3rd out, the Transfer Relay is not energized when the Relay
Bank resets.

When on a 2 Player game, and the 1st Player gets the 3rd out, the Transfer Relay energizes and the Relay Bank resets. Then the transfer relay deenergizes.

I believe the transfer relay is deenergizing too soon.

#48 2 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

I believe the transfer relay is deenergizing too soon.

Actually after noticing that other path coming from the Score Motor's Index cam, I'm thinking
the Transfer Relay remains energized right up until the Score Motor stops. Is that accurate?
Also, after 1st Player gets the 3rd out and goes to game over, if you reset the Game Over
and trip the 2nd Coin Relay, can the 2nd Player play and finish out the game, or does it
remain on 3 Outs?

#49 2 years ago

FIXED!!! ...with the help of everyone's encouragement and thought provoking information!

I know for a fact the schematic is incorrect from earlier observations. This seems like another example: I was tracing wires per the schematic around the transfer relay. The transfer relay should be energized right up until the score motor stops. Yes. It was stopping early, but I don't understand why. I traced the circuit from the transfer relay coil through the latching contacts to the score motor control switch. That all ohmed out correctly, but why then didn't the relay stay latched until the score motor stopped? I don't know.

But the control cam on the camshaft was as per the picture on the schematic....two notches 180 degrees apart. I took a cam from a spare camshaft that had only one notch, that would give the transfer relay more time to remain energized and reset the bank one more time to reset the game over relay. Replaced the 2 notch cam with a one notch cam. It resets the game over relay that had tripped, but the player relay remains on the 2nd player position. It works! Games goes to 2nd player now after 1st player 3rd out. No more game over until 2nd player 3rd out. It's working!

#50 2 years ago

I'm actually questioning my own logic. Why is it working now?

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