(Topic ID: 75989)

Wizard of Oz vs. Revenge From Mars. And Duck Hunt!

By nosro

10 years ago


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  • 69 posts
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  • Latest reply 10 years ago by nosro
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There are 69 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 10 years ago

I'm surprised this comparison hasn't been made more often. Regardless of what one might think of the gameplay, both seem to represent a perceived leap forward because of the video animation, which seems to draw in people who would not typically be interested by pinball. Obviously this is where the similarity ends as these are very different games.

I wonder how non-pinheads would react to these machines were they placed side by side. Anyone have these two machines together?

EDIT: Although this is a one-of-a-kind, I think the Duck Hunt pinball is worth adding to this discussion: http://www.skitbpinball.com/

#2 10 years ago

Classic game room should do a comparison.

#3 10 years ago

woz is less trouble to maintain but rfm is quite unique. I played both and they have their strenghts, rfm is the better overall becose the screen is interractive with the ball/gameplay where the lcd on woz is a gimmick/ flies zapper for casual players. Both have great constructions and quality feel. rfm is more of a novelty shallow game and woz a deep game with lots of replay apeal.

#4 10 years ago
Quoted from JackSlater:

woz is less trouble to maintain but rfm is quite unique. I played both and they have their strenghts, rfm is the better overall becose the screen is interractive with the ball/gameplay where the lcd on woz is a gimmick/ flies zapper for casual players. Both have great constructions and quality feel. rfm is more of a novelty shallow game and woz a deep game with lots of replay apeal.

I think its a bit early to say a new game is easier to maintain then a 14 year old game.. But I do agree they are very different. I don't like RFM as much as I would like to because I hate games where I can't see that ball most of the time.. and RFM its hidden as it goes under the mirrored glass.

#5 10 years ago
Quoted from Gexchange:

I hate games where I can't see that ball most of the time

I agree. Talk about stop and go, I feel like I could take a swig of beer when the ball goes behind the glass. I can wait till the ball drains for that.

#6 10 years ago
Quoted from Gexchange:

I think its a bit early to say a new game is easier to maintain then a 14 year old game.. But I do agree they are very different. I don't like RFM as much as I would like to because I hate games where I can't see that ball most of the time.. and RFM its hidden as it goes under the mirrored glass.

You guys need to play one with working GI. When the ball goes back there, the GI turns on in the back. The ball is never more hidden than any other game where the ball goes behind stuff during a loop to the bumpers.

#7 10 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

You guys need to play one with working GI. When the ball goes back there, the GI turns on in the back. The ball is never more hidden than any other game where the ball goes behind stuff during a loop to the bumpers.

I have one on my show room floor.. you sure? I'm going to go play it and woop some tech butt if its not working right!

#8 10 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

You guys need to play one with working GI. When the ball goes back there, the GI turns on in the back. The ball is never more hidden than any other game where the ball goes behind stuff during a loop to the bumpers.

I guess I have never seen a properly working one.

#9 10 years ago

Mine works great. I never lose sight of the ball.

Not sure even what you guys are talking about, other than you're talking about a game that you know, don't play, and have formed opinions based on what you perceive the game does rather than what it actually does.

Also, I found the 1.4 software a LOT more stop and go than the 1.5 software. 1.5 opens the loops by activating the rear gates. Much better game. Play the game with 1.5, and working GI.

#10 10 years ago

Have a WOZ - had a RFM. I'm likely to stir up some crap with this, but as far as integrating a "new" non DMD display into a game - RFM wins. I'm one of those that would prefer if I could keep my eyes on the playfield the entire time though. If you could turn the entire class into an interactive display.......... that would be the next revolutionary thing for me. Do away with the head all together.

#11 10 years ago

Both are great games. The difference with WOZ is that the LCD screen on the back glass makes it the first machine that's just as fun to watch as it is to play. I always enjoy seeing what I've been missing while somebody else plays. It's ingenious how the screen is integrated into the game with RFM, but when I've played it, I have found it hard to track the ball on the back of the PF. May have just been the one machine I was playing, though!

#12 10 years ago
Quoted from tamoore:

1.5 opens the loops by activating the rear gates.

Yes, but not on default settings. You have to change "Capture MB Light Lock Loop" and "Loop Dead Scene Shots" to YES. I love this adjustment, but be ready as the ball will scream around the loops very fast.

To the OP's point, I see little simlarities. RFM was a revolutionary gameplay changing experience. WOZ screen has no impact on how you play. Which machine is better overall would be an entirely different question.

#13 10 years ago

My rfm spotlight comes on anytime the ball goes to the back. Easy to see.

#14 10 years ago
Quoted from alveolus:

Yes, but not on default settings. You have to change "Capture MB Light Lock Loop" and "Loop Dead Scene Shots" to YES. I love this adjustment, but be ready as the ball will scream around the loops very fast.
To the OP's point, I see little simlarities. RFM was a revolutionary gameplay changing experience. WOZ screen has no impact on how you play. Which machine is better overall would be an entirely different question.

Hmmm, I got to check my RFM out..... Tomorrow

#15 10 years ago
Quoted from Tony01:

Hmmm, I got to check my RFM out..... Tomorrow

Yep. You do. It totally changes the game for the better....

#16 10 years ago

Despite both having video screens, it's still an apples and oranges comparison to me. RFM was and is a revolutionary game, and for a first effort on a new platform an amazing achievement. The integration of the video into the actual game was a brilliant idea, and who knows how it would have evolved if given the chance, but it suffered from being a one trick pony.

WOZ on the other hand, is a great pinball machine in it's own right, even without the LCD it would be an excellent game, much more complex than RFM.

What they do have in common is that they both are extremely well built in terms of the cabinet and hardware, and they are each innovative for their time.

#17 10 years ago
Quoted from Gexchange:

I think its a bit early to say a new game is easier to maintain then a 14 year old game.. But I do agree they are very different. I don't like RFM as much as I would like to because I hate games where I can't see that ball most of the time.. and RFM its hidden as it goes under the mirrored glass.

I can see the ball going around. Check your GI.

#18 10 years ago

Mirrored games like that of RFM, while innovative in pinball, had been done for years in arcade games and the LCD is cool in WOZ and is certainly a draw for locations but currently needs more tweaking before it reaches what is endless potential. Gameplay hands down goes to WOZ for its depth and stacking.

If anything I think the use of RGB lamps in WOZ is the most innovative thing in either machines. Very impressive in the way it visually directs the player to what shots need to be made and mind boggling when one thinks about how a game with so many stacking potentials can get these lamps to clearly indicate what shot needs to be made.

This is by far the most impressive thing I've ever experienced in pinball.

#19 10 years ago
Quoted from txstargazer3:

I agree. Talk about stop and go, I feel like I could take a swig of beer when the ball goes behind the glass. I can wait till the ball drains for that.

I had a drinking problem for this reason. That quickly ended when I traded RFM away.

#20 10 years ago
Quoted from alveolus:

Yes, but not on default settings. You have to change "Capture MB Light Lock Loop" and "Loop Dead Scene Shots" to YES. I love this adjustment, but be ready as the ball will scream around the loops very fast.
To the OP's point, I see little simlarities. RFM was a revolutionary gameplay changing experience. WOZ screen has no impact on how you play. Which machine is better overall would be an entirely different question.

Can anybody explain in more detail what those options change, my rfm is still new to me.

#21 10 years ago

I

Quoted from brad808:Can anybody explain in more detail what those options change, my rfm is still new to me.

They basically open up two shots to loops that are dead end shots otherwise. This increases what you might call 'flow', and reduces dead ball time.

#22 10 years ago

own a fully restored RFM. owned an ecwozle for 2 months and it's gone already.
can't see the ball on RFM? do you need glasses? I have awesome LED lighting in mine and looks and plays great.
RFM is head and shoulders above woz

#23 10 years ago
Quoted from Gexchange:

I have one on my show room floor.. you sure? I'm going to go play it and woop some tech butt if its not working right!

Go kick your brothers butt for telling me how nice the Attack From Mars was after it was already sold!!!!

And go kick Steve's butt for not getting back to me on my Tecmo Bowl monitor.

#24 10 years ago

However, RFM does not require the mod that WOZ does... earplugs. Sorry, but I would end up bashing my own skull apart in the coin door after a week of hearing that eff'ing song.

#25 10 years ago

Glad others have jumped in and agreed with me about the GI ...but going back to the ball being hidden thing - even if you "can't see the ball 'when it's in the back. There are two outcomes for shooting the ball around the orbits in RFM:

1.) It goes to the jet bumpers and you can see the ball there until it comes out on the left
2.) It loops around out the right side and you see it coming toward your lower flipper

WOZ on the otherhand, does have "back blocking" that can affect gameplay. If you loop the ball thru the trees on the left...you really can't see the ball due to the two upper playfields - the right one is almost right on top of the upper flipper - so it's pretty hard to time that shot well, IMO.

#26 10 years ago
Quoted from alveolus:

Yes, but not on default settings. You have to change "Capture MB Light Lock Loop" and "Loop Dead Scene Shots" to YES. I love this adjustment, but be ready as the ball will scream around the loops very fast.

You're welcome. Those adjustments are in there from 1.3+. They default to off because policy was not to change gameplay from what it was before by default.

#27 10 years ago
Quoted from tamoore:

I

They basically open up two shots to loops that are dead end shots otherwise. This increases what you might call 'flow', and reduces dead ball time.

3 shots actually. Both orbits and an inner loop via the capture lane.

#28 10 years ago

That was too subtle. I didn't get it until I read it a few times.

#29 10 years ago
Quoted from alveolus:

3 shots actually. Both orbits and an inner loop via the capture lane.

I played with this last night and I do like it better. Isn't this going to negatively change scoring though by not awarding anything for an orbit shot and taking away the points you would normally gain by the ball falling in the bonus multiplier and pop bumpers?

#30 10 years ago
Quoted from alveolus:

Yes, but not on default settings. You have to change "Capture MB Light Lock Loop" and "Loop Dead Scene Shots" to YES. I love this adjustment, but be ready as the ball will scream around the loops very fast.
To the OP's point, I see little simlarities. RFM was a revolutionary gameplay changing experience. WOZ screen has no impact on how you play. Which machine is better overall would be an entirely different question.

Eh...just realized this was for RFM.

Post edited by VolunteerPin : my stupidity

#31 10 years ago

WOZ has no interaction with anything on the screen. RFM is all about it.

It's like comparing Aliens to Rainbows.

#32 10 years ago
Quoted from Guinnesstime:

WOZ has no interaction with anything on the screen. RFM is all about it.
It's like comparing Aliens to Rainbows.

I haven't seen Rainbows yet, but I,m pretty sure Aliens is still a better movie.

#33 10 years ago

Rfm is an awesome game oz looks ok but aliens all the way

#34 10 years ago

Ive got both RFM and WOZ in the games room. Love both of them, but RFM is more "fun, toy" machine (sorry for the offence to some), whilst WOZ is a full blown pinball game. I say this because of the limited shots needed/available in RFM vs WOZ, and eventhough both are great to watch from a distance with multiple players, the WOZ has so much more going on the playfield for the player than RFM.

Once, one of my switches broke on RFM, and registered random hits all the time. it was the first time I saw the Boss Alien on the screen ( felt dirty as I knew I should stop playing, but wanted to see where it went). Anyone else got to this stage legitimally?

#35 10 years ago

I'd route both in certain locations, I wonder how they'd do side by side...

#36 10 years ago
Quoted from dendoc:

Ive got both RFM and WOZ in the games room. Love both of them, but RFM is more "fun, toy" machine (sorry for the offence to some), whilst WOZ is a full blown pinball game. I say this because of the limited shots needed/available in RFM vs WOZ, and eventhough both are great to watch from a distance with multiple players, the WOZ has so much more going on the playfield for the player than RFM.
Once, one of my switches broke on RFM, and registered random hits all the time. it was the first time I saw the Boss Alien on the screen ( felt dirty as I knew I should stop playing, but wanted to see where it went). Anyone else got to this stage legitimally?

I've beaten RFM on a friends machine pretty easily. Its a fun novelty pin but not nearly the game WOZ is even with unfinished code.

#37 10 years ago
Quoted from Defiler:

However, RFM does not require the mod that WOZ does... earplugs. Sorry, but I would end up bashing my own skull apart in the coin door after a week of hearing that eff'ing song.

RFM is definitely the opposite. The soundtrack and callouts are just awesome…just installed a 2.1 40 Watt amp hooked up to some insanely good speakers.

When RFM was first released, I played it @ California Extreme (very noisy, less-than-great lighting) and walked away from it. Didn't get it. Now that I have one @ home with a 22" LED monitor and state-of-the-art audio, I "get it" (it's a blast, literally). In terms of pinball as entertainment, it's really hard to beat.

From my perspective, RFM uses video to enhance the players experience (broadcasting status, points, progress, and obviously stuff to blast. WOZ uses video to benefit the audience more than the player (since the player is focused on the play field, not the back box).

IMG_8512.JPGIMG_8512.JPG

#38 10 years ago
Quoted from nosro:

I'm surprised this comparison hasn't been made more often. Regardless of what one might think of the gameplay, both seem to represent a perceived leap forward because of the video animation, which seems to draw in people who would not typically be interested by pinball. Obviously this is where the similarity ends as these are very different games.
I wonder how non-pinheads would react to these machines were they placed side by side. Anyone have these two machines together?

There isn't any leap forward. That's why there isn't a comparison.

P2k. Revolutionary and changed the way pinball was played. Phenominal.

WOZ, nothing new, just a different display. If this is revolutionary, then Batman forever is revolutionary because their DMD is bigger than anyone elses. Plays the same as everything else. Yawn. They arn't even in the same league together.

now if you compare P3 with P2k. Now your more closer to revolutionary technology crossing over into new territory.

#39 10 years ago

RFM, too easy and same repetitive shots over and over again. And if it was so great then it has the distinction of marking the end of Bally.

And where is Gomez? How about some more creativity on the new Stern pins like RFM, as much as I like the Stern's I have but hey, no market for it?

And P3 is a "yawn" with very little chance because of the lack of interest from the masses. When is the last time you've seen a P3 post? As much as I'm for new stuff and moving the ball forward, this one impresses me the least. Who is going to pay that much for that experiment?

You can say what you want but Woz and its new technology is here and now and being bought by the "pinball masses", simple as that, and future releases will only get better and is the only pin maker right now taking pinball to the next level that is actually viable.

#40 10 years ago

The gameplay is so different on these two machines that the only correlation you can really draw is both have a monitor. The machines use them in very different ways.

#41 10 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

RFM, too easy and same repetitive shots over and over again.

Every pinball machine has the same shots over and over again lol. At least it has two ramps *cough cough*

Quoted from iceman44:

And if it was so great then it has the distinction of marking the end of Bally.

Watch "Tilt: The Battle to Save Pinball" Long story short: They planned on killing pinball regardless of P2K. The death of the arcade & pinball sales in general marked the end of B/W making pins. Too much money in slots to "waste time and money" on the pin division.

Quoted from iceman44:

And P3 is a "yawn" with very little chance because of the lack of interest from the masses. When is the last time you've seen a P3 post? As much as I'm for new stuff and moving the ball forward, this one impresses me the least. Who is going to pay that much for that experiment?

Right now P3 is a "platform" - much like P2K...the concept is awesome, but there's no GAME to get excited about. If they release this thing with Lexi Lightyear and Cosmic Cart, it's over. Unfortunately P3 is in it's "SW Ep1" phase right now when they need a game as cool as RFM to start with.

#42 10 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Right now P3 is a "platform" - much like P2K...the concept is awesome, but there's no GAME to get excited about. If they release this thing with Lexi Lightyear and Cosmic Cart, it's over. Unfortunately P3 is in it's "SW Ep1" phase right now when they need a game as cool as RFM to start with.

Let's put it this way, who's willing to step up and "fund it" like 1k people did with Woz? Lexi Lightyear and Mario Cart? Maybe he should take it to the Shark Tank.

Quoted from Rarehero:

Every pinball machine has the same shots over and over again lol. At least it has two ramps *cough cough*

But you forgot about the "spinner"……"two ramps and a spinner" is all you need right?

#43 10 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

RFM, too easy and same repetitive shots over and over again. And if it was so great then it has the distinction of marking the end of Bally.
And where is Gomez? How about some more creativity on the new Stern pins like RFM, as much as I like the Stern's I have but hey, no market for it?

RFM is easy, but it's also very entertaining. Just played a game of MB…same thing…entertaining, not challenging. When I had a 7 pin collection, couldn't justify RFM. In a collection > 10, I think it's easy to make room for.

Stern hasn't showed any ability to innovate…they just love keeping the line busy and selling machines (which we all seem to love). They build some very fun games, but they really do stick to their formula. The time will come when Stern will need to change it up…just don't really know when that will be.

#44 10 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Let's put it this way, who's willing to step up and "fund it" like 1k people did with Woz? Lexi Lightyear and Mario Cart? Maybe he should take it to the Shark Tank.

Well that's what I'm sayin - great concept, but no great game to show it off (like RFM). Unfortunately they're probably in too deep to scrap or rework those game concepts...

Quoted from iceman44:

But you forgot about the "spinner"……"two ramps and a spinner" is all you need right?

LOL RFM has just as many shots as any other pinball machine...left/right/center orbit ...Martian targets on the sides...two ramps (one with a drop target in front of it)....a kickout scoop...a skip ramp....oh and a whole SHIT TON OF HOLOGRAMS runnin' around to shoot!!! Plus it has secondary buttons which allow for cool gameplay functions (moving multipliers, aiming crosshairs at martians, changing point values during Alien Abduction, etc)

#45 10 years ago

I wouldn't say it's easy. Maybe you have it set to easy. I've had mine for 6+ years and i've only attacked mars 4 times ever.

#46 10 years ago

I do like RFM Greg but hey, its only ranked #37 and the pinsiders have spoken

I give Gomez credit but where is the creativity now? Following the same formula until it fails? We always have Jpop now to move things forward……..

#47 10 years ago

Not a big fan of either game to say the least. In the end observers will much prefer WoZ because it can be watched by a crowd of people as opposed to RFM that can really only be appreciated from the player's perspective.

#48 10 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

Not a big fan of either game to say the least. In the end observers will much prefer WoZ because it can be watched by a crowd of people as opposed to RFM that can really only be appreciated from the player's perspective.

really? What were the crowds like in 2000? Did you see the crowds watching?

#49 10 years ago

Pinball 2000 is the last pinball hardware and software platform developed by major pinball manufacturer Williams, and was used in the machines Revenge From Mars (under the brand name Bally) and Star Wars Episode I (under the brand name Williams) before Williams exited the pinball business on October 25, 1999. It is the successor to the Williams Pinball Controller platform.
Unlike previous pinball machines, Pinball 2000 machines feature a computer monitor to display animations, scores, and other information. The player perceives this video to be integrated with the playfield, due to a mirrored playfield glass (utilizing an illusion called "Pepper's Ghost") that reflects the monitor hung in the head of the machine. This allows the display of virtual game targets in the playfield's upper third that can be "hit" by the machine's physical steel ball. "Impacts" on these targets are detected by physical targets in the middle of the playfield, and by recognizing successful shots up the left and right ramps and orbits/loops.
This innovative integration of pinball and video was inspired by the Asteroids Deluxe arcade machine,[1] which used a one-way mirror to add a static background graphic to the game's animated vector graphics.
Revenge from Mars, the first of the two released games, sold a promising 6,878 units. However, Star Wars Episode I suffered from a rushed and top-secret production cycle and sold only about half as many units (3,525), leading to Williams' decision to close down its historic pinball division.

And then all in on slot machines, smart move…….

#50 10 years ago

Williams CEO's sabotaged the project from day 1. they tried to be tricky and give the designers, what they thought "was an impossible project". To completely redesign the way pinball looked and played. They did not expect they would succeed. And they did. But to their investors. Slot machines cost much less to build and design, yet they get the same amount for them.

So they can have a slot machine, which costs around $1000 to make, and still fetch $3200.

or a pin, that cost about $2500 to make, and fetch $3200.

Plus slots take 1/4 the time to bust out and only 20% of the parts. So no matter how good they would have done, Execs would have closed the department, because it didn't look good on paper. then they split up the rights so nobody could make p2k again and prove that it was a profitable venture. There is much more to the story than your showing.

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