Wire Gottlieb double flippers like Bally's?

(Topic ID: 213033)

Wire Gottlieb double flippers like Bally's?


By srcdube

10 months ago



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  • 20 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 days ago by srcdube
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#1 10 months ago

I've been trying to tweak my Gottlieb double flippers to get a bit more power. (System 80 Spider-Man)

I've only recently learned how Bally double flippers are wired with the second Normally Open switch on the lower flipper to maximize it's power before engaging the second flipper at EOS.

Has anyone ever rewired Gottlieb double flippers the same way? Is it doable or is there something different I'm not taking into consideration ? If you've done it does it make a big difference?

#2 9 months ago

Bump

1 week later
#3 9 months ago

Cricket...cricket...

#4 9 months ago

It's lonely when you are the pioneer.

#5 9 months ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

It's lonely when you are the pioneer.

#6 9 months ago

Try it. I understand the concept but if the power supply is adequate it may not make a noticeable difference.

Another effect of the Bally wiring that's relevant on double flippers: On my Paragon, I can blip the right flipper button and make the bottom right flipper twitch (such as when passing the ball), while the upper right flipper remains still. It's not possible to lose the ball between the two right flippers when doing this.

#7 9 months ago
Quoted from RoyGBev:

Try it. I understand the concept but if the power supply is adequate it may not make a noticeable difference.

Experiment 1... i’ll just disconnect second sets of flippers to see if single flipper is stronger by itself. Yes, if power supply has enough current it may not make a difference. Good point, thanks! May not get to this for a bit but will report back.

4 months later
#8 4 months ago

Stream isn’t dead... I’ve just been lazy.

I ordered a couple of these double eos switches from pinball resource... same system, different machines, but I expect should work for what I’m trying to do. Any concern about putting a flipper coil worth of current through that switch? They look like other ones so I’m assume they can handle it. How are these used in other systems...I’m thinking they may be to activate something like lane light changes? Or are they actually used like the bally ones to delay when the second flipper engages?

Right now just trying to play the game a lot, only using the bottom flippers to get a good feel for how strong they are. After a lot of games I’m going to disconnect the upper flippers to see if the lower ones are any stronger without them. Per prior post, if the power supplies are adequate to handle the current spike with both flippers on in parallel it may not be an improvement to add the double eos. If I seem to get more power without the second flippers in parallel, then I’ll install the double eos switches.

Btw... really hard to tell your brain to NOT use the upper flippers when you’ve been using them for 15 years!!

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1 month later
#9 3 months ago

Finally back to this. Good news is that there is some improvement to flipper strength when the flippers don’t fire together.

After a couple of weeks of playing with just the lower flippers (but with the upper ones connected) I disconnected the two upper flippers to see if play improved . I found the flippers a bit stronger.

Hard to tell with the lower left flipper because there are no real long shots; but the shots seem a little harder and bounce further . My son feels the play is definitely faster.

Definitely an improvement with the lower right when making the shot back up to the top of the playfield. With both flippers on, the ball makes it all the way across the top curve may bounce back to the middle entry lane or drop into the A or B lanes... never makes it to the 1,2,3 holes. With the upper flipper connected there’s enough strength to bounce all the way back to the 1,2,3 holes.

So... I’m going to go ahead with installing stacked EOS switches as shown in prior post and next post.

But I ran into problems already...

#10 3 months ago

Problem 1: although I thought I ordered the stacked switch in the top photo what I actually got was the two switches that I can stack myself. Ok. But I found that there are a couple extra spacers marked in diagram ... the top spacer on one and the bottom spaced in the other, that add to the gap. I’m a little worried about needing to much travel between opening the bottom switch and closing the top switch. I’m hoping that I can positon them to work... looks possible.

If not, then I’m taking apart leaf switches. Has anyone done that? I would drill out the top of the plastic sleeve, remove extra spacers, cut sleeve, and then either just rely on the screws to sandwich it all together, or use a wide round solder tip or heated drill bit to melt the top of the sleeve again.

Anyone get into this before and have any suggestions?

Problem 2 in next post.

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#11 3 months ago

Problem 2: what freakin size is the leaf switch mounting bolt ?!?!?

I need a longer bolt, so I took the existing one out of the flipper assembly to get the correct size and thread.

The bolt appears to be some weird non standard size. It seems to thread into a 6-32, but there’s the tiniest bit of play. I bought them, but the bolt is just a bit too fat for the sleeve through the leaf switch. 4-40 is too small.

Metric M4 is too big.
Metric M3 is hard to find, but when I found some, the original bolt from the machine doesn’t thread into an M3 nut... too big or wrong thread.

So... my bolt is something between a Metric M3 and an imperial 6-32.

Is there a bolt size I’m not aware of? Discontinued? Did Gottlieb make their own screws just to be a pita? I doubt it.
So... any experience on this would be appreciated.

I’ll check to see if a 6-32 threads into the flipper plate.

If it does then I could drill the sleeve slightly bigger.

If it doesn’t then I get either 4-40 or M3 screws and put nuts on the bottom of them instead of screwing to the flipper plate.

All in all a real pita just to add a second switch... might not be worth it.

#12 3 months ago

I believe they are actually a #5-40 screw. Not extremely common but can be found. I know grainger sells them, I think my local Ace had a few lengths.

#13 3 months ago
Quoted from BorgDog:

I believe they are actually a #5-40 screw. Not extremely common but can be found. I know grainger sells them, I think my local Ace had a few lengths.

Great... will start hunting. Might need to get online... I’ve gone to what I would consider “the” nuts and bolts shop here in Ottawa and I didn’t see that size (although I wasn’t looking for it) they had M3 which none of the usuals had (Lowe’s, Home Despots, Canadian Tire...)

#14 3 months ago

hopefully you can find at least one locally to test it out before buying a bunch.

interested to see how this plays out, was playing my spider-man this weekend but didn't pay attention to how far the rebound back was, but I think it will make it back to the 1 2 3 barely.

#15 3 months ago
Quoted from BorgDog:

hopefully you can find at least one locally to test it out before buying a bunch.
interested to see how this plays out, was playing my spider-man this weekend but didn't pay attention to how far the rebound back was, but I think it will make it back to the 1 2 3 barely.

‘Just try it like I did. I simply desoldered and marette capped the hot wires to the two upper flippers. Try it for a week and then solder them back. Makes for interesting game play too with just one set of flippers!

#16 3 months ago

5-40 1-1/4” special order... gotta by a box at $35! Will check some other places first.

#17 3 months ago

Marco has them... will keep checking locally, but I have a source at least:

https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/4005-01016-18B

#18 3 months ago

... removed the switch entirely and confirmed that 6-32 does NOT thread into the mounting plate in the flipper assembly, so it’s not just a matter of the screw being too big for the leaf switch sleeve. I expect this is 5-40 as BorgDog indicates... thanks BD!

#19 89 days ago

... ordered 5-40 machine screws from Marcos. Figured I might as well get a few other things as well since I had to make an order... rubber kit, plunger springs. In for a penny, in for a pound. Shipping takes a while to Canada though. Later!

2 months later
#20 9 days ago

Closing the loop on this one in case anybody checks it out in the future.

5-40 screws came in and the thread is correct. The “stack” for the double leaf switch was 1 inch so I ordered 1 and 1/8” long screws... they almost didn’t fit though . I expect I didn’t take into account the extra space of the flange on the plastic sleeve that holds the stack together. There was only about 1 or 2 threads protruding but it was enough to catch the threads in the mounting bracket. Anyway... if you order screws get 1 and 1/4 “ or be sure to use a caliper and include the flanges in your measurement.

In the end though I did not go ahead with the changes. After disconnecting the top flippers for a month and playing with them off, I initially thought I had a bit more power in the shot. However when I connected them back on again I found that I could still make pretty hard shots with the lower flippers, same as when they were isolated.

So bottom line, I believe with a good flipper tuneup, and properly spaced eos gaps, there is sufficient current from the power supply to drive both flippers at the same time without needing to delay one flipper like the Bally wiring.

Which begs the question, why does Bally stagger the flipper shots in Paragon and Harlem Globetrotters (and other double flipper games?). Did the power supplies not have sufficient current to drive them both at the same time? Hmmm...

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