(Topic ID: 240285)

Willy Wonka reveal details


By screaminr

5 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 1,434 posts
  • 369 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 66 days ago by pinballwil
  • Topic is favorited by 51 Pinsiders

You

Topic poll

“Who wants what”

  • SE 45 votes
    31%
  • LE 70 votes
    48%
  • CE 30 votes
    21%

(145 votes)

Topic Gallery

There have been 116 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

Apbg (resized).jpg
file (resized).jpg
IMG_20190712_194049 (resized).jpg
D94A4758-E26B-4A80-84D3-9616808E0546 (resized).png
JJPPinfest 2019 (resized).png
wonka (resized).jpg
9a97aaf1-e78d-496f-8d77-5b0c9153ceec (resized).jpeg
Willy2 (resized).jpg
20190419_231634 (resized).jpg
letter h (resized).jpg
pasted_image (resized).png
92f1c59635afb8db992d8d3fd68f1ce8-2.jpg
harrypotter03.jpg
wonka-blu-ray.jpg
piq8qnz7T (resized).png
k0rp49wdvoi2 (resized).png

Topic index (key posts)

5 key posts have been marked in this topic (Show topic index)

There are 1434 posts in this topic. You are on page 25 of 29.
32
#1201 5 months ago

Alright, I've been avoiding wading into this, but since people are being pissy with me anyways I might as well earn it.

Putting on my design pedant hat, I really want to know what intern at Warner Bros screwed everyone over with this half assed logo, so prominently featured on the SE. They took a wonderfully whimsical piece of typography, and ran it through the wringer until it looks like crap, and it's a damn shame. It's been bugging me since I first saw it. I got inspired by the boring complaints to get to the bottom of it, so here's a hopefully non-boring, or at least overly detailed, complaint to break things up.

First thing I did was hunt down some original movie posters from the film's debut. Here's an example of one:

willy_wonka_and_the_chocolate_factory_xlg (resized).jpg

Nothing particularly special really, a little dated feeling by our modern standards, but I like it fine. But for our purposes all that matters is the logo at the bottom. Someone hand lettered that, it's clearly not a font, especially given the era we're talking about. No computer warping typography then. That's a great piece of work, really fits the character of the film. Dates things to that era of psychedelic type, but that's okay, we're talking about an older movie here.

Now compare it with this bit from the game:

wonka-compare.jpg

The life has absolutely been sucked out of it. They're trying to hide it with all the colors and shading and outlines, but the basic shapes are just mangled.

Look at the H in "chocolate", in the original lettering the connecter between the two sides is a little ball, like a piece of candy. In the Warner Bros version it's just a lumpy mess. No sign of the ball at all. Look all the inside top of the C in "factory", see how on the original it curves in smoothly to a little point? The remake has a sloppy artifact poking out instead. Same with the curves inside the T next to it, weird chunks instead of curves. That artifacting is all over the logo. The smooth curves are chunky, the proportions are sloppy and don't connect right, and the whole thing looks like it was badly traced by that woman who ruined the Jesus painting and got internet famous.

I'll tell you what the intern did. They took the original poster, or probably a crappy photo of it, and brought it into Adobe Illustrator. Then they ran an auto-vectorize filter on it, to turn all the shapes into editable objects, rather than taking 45 minutes to do it all by hand. And then they took the filter result and ... called it a day. Went to get lunch, emailed the file out, and never looked at it again.

Here's some proof. I took the H I like so much, and brought it into Illustrator, and did just that, ran an auto trace on it. Then I did my own hand drawn version. Took a couple minutes, this isn't actually difficult stuff. Look at the difference here. I could have used a more high rez source to be truly accurate with the details, but I think you get the point:

h-tracing.jpg

Here's what the linework looks like between my hand drawn and the auto trace in more detail. You can really see how not only is the ball connector totally lost, but the curves around the ends of the letter are lumpy and inconsistent, not smooth, or are done as straight lines without any of the hand drawn character. You can't follow the line of the side of the H from the top to the bottom with your eye as a continuous shape. The auto trace isn't that smart, it just takes a best guess stab at things, you need a human hand to guide it:

h-lines.jpg

This isn't JJP's fault, as far as I can tell Warner Bros put zero effort into their own franchise, and JJP had to use what they were given. But damn, what a wreck. And if that's all you've got to work with? Please don't make it the only art on the side of your game! I know some people roll their eyes at font talk, but this is really painfully obvious stuff. If Dirty Donny had drawn the Metallica logo wrong people would have been pitchforking.

-1
#1202 5 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

But you knocked them for a risk of lack of objectivity. What I said was the choice to use ppl like this was never about getting independent, objective views on the product. It was about promotion. It was about getting multiple information channels talking about YOUR product and coordinating information launch.
What better way to control speculation and information than to get the main megaphones to sign on the line with you and agree to YOUR schedule and coordinating?

maybe a little, but I know they aren't objective, others don't.

go to the pro's who know what they are doing:

https://uk.ign.com/articles/2019/03/26/black-knight-sword-of-rage-pinball-revealed-first-images-video-details-and-an-interview-with-creator-steve-ritchie

#1203 5 months ago

Neil can you specifically say who you are referring to please?

#1204 5 months ago
Quoted from Nevus:

Aurich, I have an art question.
I rarely consider doing a powder coat on a game, but Wonka SE is one where I would probably do it.
Being whatever the total opposite of artistic is, I use caveman tools like online color wheels when considering options.
What color would you suggest for powder coating on the SE? If you are willing to answer that one, would you mind sharing your why as well?
PM is fine if you want to avoid the whining.

I think this is a pretty personal thing to be honest. Some people like their powder coating to stand out with a 'look at me' feel, others like being more subtle. If the SE shipped with stainless armor I'd just leave it honestly, I love the classic look. But I'm not wild about the black I see on the site, kinda Stern Pro eh, so I can see why you'd want to do it.

I personally like the more subtle approach, but also wouldn't want to do it without feeling like I was getting something worthwhile out of the money and effort. So I'd go with blue, similar to what JJP did with the LE, but pay whatever extra was needed to get some kind of two stage candy pearl look. Then I'd have my cake and eat it too, as far as "subtle but worth it" goes. If it ends up feeling similar to the LE that's fine, I'd only care about the game I had at home, not what anyone else's looked like.

My two cents!

#1205 5 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Here's what the linework looks like between my hand drawn and the auto trace in more detail.

Thanks for that detailed writeup! My non-designer eye didn't pick up on any of the details you immediately did.

#1206 5 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I think this is a pretty personal thing to be honest. Some people like their powder coating to stand out with a 'look at me' feel, others like being more subtle. If the SE shipped with stainless armor I'd just leave it honestly, I love the classic look. But I'm not wild about the black I see on the site, kinda Stern Pro eh, so I can see why you'd want to do it.
I personally like the more subtle approach, but also wouldn't want to do it without feeling like I was getting something worthwhile out of the money and effort. So I'd go with blue, similar to what JJP did with the LE, but pay whatever extra was needed to get some kind of two stage candy pearl look. Then I'd have my cake and eat it too, as far as "subtle but worth it" goes. If it ends up feeling similar to the LE that's fine, I'd only care about the game I had at home, not what anyone else's looked like.
My two cents!

Thanks. I totally agree about the stainless. I really like the stainless on the Dialed In SE and was hoping to see it on Wonka.

(edit) mmm.. I wonder if you can order the stainless trim from JJP since Wonka is going in the Dialed In Cabinet?
DISE-main-new-698x1024 (resized).png

#1207 5 months ago

I think many of them are objective. I wholeheartedly disagree with your "pros". To me the real pros are those who are active in the pinball community.

Speaking of professionals, you then linked an IGN article. You do realize that IGN is known for basically being paid marketing mouth pieces when it comes to their "articles" right? There have been a couple IGN whistleblowers that called attention to this a few years ago. Stern is paying something somewhere to get those articles done by IGN.

#1208 5 months ago

Thank you!! aurich I have been biting my tongue as well, and you nailed it. They really need to improve the logo mark and text extrusions... which could be like you said the original vector curve, or the number of extrusions they have added to the font / logo in whatever 3D software they are using.

#1209 5 months ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

Speaking of professionals, you then linked an IGN article. You do realize that IGN is known for basically being paid marketing mouth pieces when it comes to their "articles" right?

Or maybe Sammy has been an active pinball enthusiast for years and happens to be an editor at IGN and enjoys getting the chance to mix his fun hobby into his day job.

#1210 5 months ago
Quoted from imharrow:

Or maybe Sammy has been an active pinball enthusiast for years and happens to be an editor at IGN and enjoys getting the chance to mix his fun hobby into his day job.

Maybe! But to say that the others active in the hobby as media are not professionals and cannot be objective is no more or less true than Sammy.

#1211 5 months ago
Quoted from Soulrider911:

Thank you!! aurich I have been biting my tongue as well, and you nailed it. They really need to improve the logo mark and text extrusions... which could be like you said the original vector curve, or the number of extrusions they have added to the font / logo in whatever 3D software they are using.

The treatment is one thing, but the underlying source shapes seem to be a Warner Bros thing. They'll license it out to just about anything, you can find the logo all over the place. Here's a calendar with the same problems.

201900006956 (resized).jpg

But they really don't seem to have much in the way of brand guidelines, this slot machine app is a different treatment:

k0rp49wdvoi2 (resized).png

And this slot machine logo is entirely different (look at the H, they got the ball back in, however hard to see through the gaudy 3D gold, and the swirl off the end of the W is nicer):

piq8qnz7T (resized).png

So I dunno what to say. Maybe JJP went back and forth with lawyers and are stuck with it. Maybe they didn't try and change it. Maybe no one cared, I dunno. If I was on the project I would have redrawn it off the original poster to get it right, and then simply not said anything and hoped nobody noticed, heh. Maybe they did that and got their wrist slapped! My experience with this licensing stuff is you get a different answer depending on who you talk to. But my guess, just given all the different logos and slot machines etc a simple search turns up is that nobody is really paying that much attention to these kinds of details. Hence my intern comments.

#1212 5 months ago

I think the game looks really good overall but yes, the logo really bothered me. Aurich explained why perfectly.

Auto trace has come a long ways but it's never perfect especially for fonts. Someone along the way should have overlaid the vector result over the raster original and tweaked the nodes until it was right.

Hope nobody in the pinball world is tasked with restoring Notre Dame

#1213 5 months ago

Damn, Rarehero told me to check out the Blu-ray cover, and he was right, it's way more accurate to the original, no wonky Wonka auto trace issues. Got an amateur hour drop shadow under it, and a gold texture applied, but look, our friend the rounded candy is back in the H!

wonka-blu-ray.jpg

I know you JJP nerds are reading this, fix the logo! Here's evidence it's licensor approved to do it this way. Do your buyers — especially the ones getting nothing but the logo on the SE — a solid, take the hour or two to get it right.

I think I'm done with Logogate now, back to complaining about no chocolate rivers or something.

#1214 5 months ago
Quoted from Nevus:

Aurich, I have an art question.
I rarely consider doing a powder coat on a game, but Wonka SE is one where I would probably do it.
Being whatever the total opposite of artistic is, I use caveman tools like online color wheels when considering options.
What color would you suggest for powder coating on the SE? If you are willing to answer that one, would you mind sharing your why as well?
PM is fine if you want to avoid the whining.
My thought were either Red or Gold. Red and Yellow tones fall on the color site as options. I don't like yellow powder, but I could see a candy red to compliment the royal(ish) blue and purple in the cabinet. Gold because of the golden ticket. I don't like orange even though it's complimentary to blue. Orange powder on a pinball just isn't pleasing to my eye.

I would go with chocolate brown

#1215 5 months ago

Does anyone else notice how a majority of the movie clips played in Wonka don't have the actor audio from the scene being played as well? It just seems odd to see all of the scenes from the movie on loop during a mode and yet you never hear the actor audio from them. Is it because just about everything in the game can be stacked? Without the actor audio being played in sync with the clips it takes away from the theme and the game suddenly has a generic vibe.

At factory mode starts a short clip from the scene with actor audio should be played, as shots are made you should see and hear the actor audio as the scene progresses. Instead we just see clips played on a loop without the actor audio which I don't think adds anything to the game. Even the Slugworth multiball mode doesn't feature scenes with audio and instead it's a giant Slugworth head just staring at you. Why not have the various scenes with actor audio involving Slugworth be played as jackpots during the mode are collected leading to a super jackpot shot that plays the final Slugworth scene where Willy Wonka reveals he's not actually bad after all.

Here's another example. In the "Wonkatana" mode at mode start you see the boat going into the tunnel and Gene Wilder saying something but you don't hear anything. Immediately the game cuts back to the main screen and you hear Gene Wilder start his crazy singing from later in that scene. This mode can be stacked with other modes and as a result I think it takes you out of it versus the mode standing on its own and be a separate event in the game.

Stacking almost every mode in a game can be great if there's a ton of content to work with. Willy Wonka however is a 100 minute movie, not 10+ hours like all the LOTR, Hobbit, and Pirates movies. The scenes from Willy Wonka are what make the movie fun and it's a bummer not to hear the actor audio being played when they are shown. That's theme integration and I feel it's partially missing from this game. Same goes for locking balls, you see Willy Wonka say something but don't hear the actor audio.

#1216 5 months ago
Quoted from Soulrider911:

Too many WONKA threads, I never know which one is most relevant / interesting haha

Completely agree. The mods should close the rest and just have one.

#1217 5 months ago

Fascinating stuff. Not sure how many notice or care about this level of detail, but it was interesting to see.

Edit: can’t unsee it now either like Delt3 said

Quoted from Aurich:

The treatment is one thing, but the underlying source shapes seem to be a Warner Bros thing. They'll license it out to just about anything, you can find the logo all over the place. Here's a calendar with the same problems.
[quoted image]
But they really don't seem to have much in the way of brand guidelines, this slot machine app is a different treatment:
[quoted image]
And this slot machine logo is entirely different (look at the H, they got the ball back in, however hard to see through the gaudy 3D gold, and the swirl off the end of the W is nicer):
[quoted image]
So I dunno what to say. Maybe JJP went back and forth with lawyers and are stuck with it. Maybe they didn't try and change it. Maybe no one cared, I dunno. If I was on the project I would have redrawn it off the original poster to get it right, and then simply not said anything and hoped nobody noticed, heh. Maybe they did that and got their wrist slapped! My experience with this licensing stuff is you get a different answer depending on who you talk to. But my guess, just given all the different logos and slot machines etc a simple search turns up is that nobody is really paying that much attention to these kinds of details. Hence my intern comments.

#1218 5 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Alright, I've been avoiding wading into this, but since people are being pissy with me anyways I might as well earn it.
Putting on my design pedant hat, I really want to know what intern at Warner Bros screwed everyone over with this half assed logo, so prominently featured on the SE. They took a wonderfully whimsical piece of typography, and ran it through the wringer until it looks like crap, and it's a damn shame. It's been bugging me since I first saw it. I got inspired by the boring complaints to get to the bottom of it, so here's a hopefully non-boring, or at least overly detailed, complaint to break things up.
First thing I did was hunt down some original movie posters from the film's debut. Here's an example of one:
[quoted image]
Nothing particularly special really, a little dated feeling by our modern standards, but I like it fine. But for our purposes all that matters is the logo at the bottom. Someone hand lettered that, it's clearly not a font, especially given the era we're talking about. No computer warping typography then. That's a great piece of work, really fits the character of the film. Dates things to that era of psychedelic type, but that's okay, we're talking about an older movie here.
Now compare it with this bit from the game:
[quoted image]
The life has absolutely been sucked out of it. They're trying to hide it with all the colors and shading and outlines, but the basic shapes are just mangled.
Look at the H in "chocolate", in the original lettering the connecter between the two sides is a little ball, like a piece of candy. In the Warner Bros version it's just a lumpy mess. No sign of the ball at all. Look all the inside top of the C in "factory", see how on the original it curves in smoothly to a little point? The remake has a sloppy artifact poking out instead. Same with the curves inside the T next to it, weird chunks instead of curves. That artifacting is all over the logo. The smooth curves are chunky, the proportions are sloppy and don't connect right, and the whole thing looks like it was badly traced by that woman who ruined the Jesus painting and got internet famous.
I'll tell you what the intern did. They took the original poster, or probably a crappy photo of it, and brought it into Adobe Illustrator. Then they ran an auto-vectorize filter on it, to turn all the shapes into editable objects, rather than taking 45 minutes to do it all by hand. And then they took the filter result and ... called it a day. Went to get lunch, emailed the file out, and never looked at it again.
Here's some proof. I took the H I like so much, and brought it into Illustrator, and did just that, ran an auto trace on it. Then I did my own hand drawn version. Took a couple minutes, this isn't actually difficult stuff. Look at the difference here. I could have used a more high rez source to be truly accurate with the details, but I think you get the point:
[quoted image]
Here's what the linework looks like between my hand drawn and the auto trace in more detail. You can really see how not only is the ball connector totally lost, but the curves around the ends of the letter are lumpy and inconsistent, not smooth, or are done as straight lines without any of the hand drawn character. You can't follow the line of the side of the H from the top to the bottom with your eye as a continuous shape. The auto trace isn't that smart, it just takes a best guess stab at things, you need a human hand to guide it:
[quoted image]
This isn't JJP's fault, as far as I can tell Warner Bros put zero effort into their own franchise, and JJP had to use what they were given. But damn, what a wreck. And if that's all you've got to work with? Please don't make it the only art on the side of your game! I know some people roll their eyes at font talk, but this is really painfully obvious stuff. If Dirty Donny had drawn the Metallica logo wrong people would have been pitchforking.

Damn it. I was about to reply to this saying you have to be kidding me - now we're commenting on the text BUT my brain was blown away by the fact pattern and now my eyes can't stop seeing it either. Damn you for bringing this to my attention!

#1219 5 months ago

From what they said at MGC there will be more coming in release code. This was 60% code, we know from previous pins that JJP will do more.

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Does anyone else notice how a majority of the movie clips played in Wonka don't have the actor audio from the scene being played as well? It just seems odd to see all of the scenes from the movie on loop during a mode and yet you never hear the actor audio from them. Is it because just about everything in the game can be stacked? Without the actor audio being played in sync with the clips it takes away from the theme and the game suddenly has a generic vibe.
At factory mode starts a short clip from the scene with actor audio should be played, as shots are made you should see and hear the actor audio as the scene progresses. Instead we just see clips played on a loop without the actor audio which I don't think adds anything to the game. Even the Slugworth multiball mode doesn't feature scenes with audio and instead it's a giant Slugworth head just staring at you. Why not have the various scenes with actor audio involving Slugworth be played as jackpots during the mode are collected leading to a super jackpot shot that plays the final Slugworth scene where Willy Wonka reveals he's not actually bad after all. That's theme integration and I feel it's partially missing from this game. Same goes for locking balls, you see Willy Wonka say something but don't hear the actor audio.
Here's another example. In the "Wonkatana" mode at mode start you see the boat going into the tunnel and Gene Wilder saying something but you don't hear anything. Immediately the game cuts back to the main screen and you hear Gene Wilder start is crazy singing from later in that scene. This mode can be stacked with other modes and as a result I think it takes you out of it versus the mode standing on its own and be a separate event in the game.

#1220 5 months ago
Quoted from Nevus:

Is this the first game that JJP has changed the playfield between versions?

Yes. They've always hyped consistency between playfields over the 3 models as a main selling point between themselves and the opposition.

#1221 5 months ago
Quoted from delt31:

Damn it. I was about to reply to this saying you have to be kidding me - now we're commenting on the text BUT my brain was blown away by the fact pattern and now my eyes can't stop seeing it either. Damn you for bringing this to my attention!

Look, design stuff can be, pardon the term, wonky. There’s stuff that’s a matter of personal taste. I could rant about the font choices on Ghostbusters, but no one would care. They’re not “broken” I just think they didn’t do it right. Wah wah wah, no one caaaaarrrrrres.

But this isn’t a taste thing, it’s basic mechanical stuff. Someone did a half assed job with a license worth who knows what. Millions probably if you factor it all in. And it doesn’t take anything special to see it once you know how to look.

Caring about this stuff is my job. And most companies care a lot too. I went back and forth with Microsoft the other week about if the text next to their logo should say “presented by” or “brought to you by”, and then when I thought it was settled they didn’t like the spacing of it, had to be the width of the squares away from the logo. 7 or 8 emails over minor stuff, but that’s business as usual.

I don’t know if the brat/kid multiball story is true. I believe it. Seems to me they were paying attention to the wrong stuff.

21
#1222 5 months ago

Played WONKA at MGC.
My review; I liked it. Solid effort by JJP.
You have to hand it to Pat, the guy can lay out a playfield.

#1223 5 months ago

How do you "know" this? Would love to hear how you know someone's thoughts and intentions. Sounds like you arent being "objective" and that's the irony here.

#1224 5 months ago
Quoted from stpcore:

How do you "know" this? Would love to hear how you know someone's thoughts and intentions. Sounds like you arent being "objective" and that's the irony here.

I work in journalism (creative director for Ars Technica). Every day I work with professional journalists who are kick ass at their job, and respected in their fields. It's my firm opinion that there is simply no such thing as being completely 'objective' when you cover something. You can try your absolute best to be neutral, but what you leave out matters as much as what you put in. The headline colors how people think. Every little bit has some element of your personality, or the organization's policies or whatever else.

Frankly a lot of the time we're not neutral, because being neutral and 'not picking a side' is just another form of picking a side. If we're covering policy, and there's a bad law with bad ideas, it's really our job to say "this is a bad law", not just try and robot out the facts. That's what the experts in the room should do. Give you enough to make up your own mind, but not try and pretend that real things aren't happening.

We joke that we're getting things right when people from opposite camps accuse us of being in cahoots with companies. Like when you're told you're both Apple and Microsoft shills you're probably doing it right.

And I'm talking about "hard news" here, not reviews. Reviews take all of the above, and turn it up to 11. Why are you reading (or listening to) a review if you didn't want someone's opinion? You can get a fact sheet from the manufacturer if all you want are specs.

If you're talking about something that's not been revealed, that's under NDA, that is a 'secret', then yeah, you probably want to be a bit careful. Your reputation can take a hit there. The hype was a little over-fanned on this one maybe. But to treat anyone running a pinball podcast like they're supposed to be Swiss neutral is silly. I promise you none of these podcasters are getting paid the way 'real' journalists are, these are labors of love. If you can't put your heart and passion and opinion into it then what's the fucking point?

My opinion: Pinside needs to own up to the way we fan hype, and not try and dump it on people who tease about things. Especially if it comes from a source we know better about. Ahem.

#1225 5 months ago

I listen to a bunch of podcasts and appreciate them giving their reviews and opinions. I do believe they are giving their true opinion even when they’re hyping it up. Doesn’t mean I have to agree with them. Special When Lit for example (a great podcast!) titled their episode “The Pinball Landscape Is About To Change” which to me anyway implies a momentous shift with the new JJP game. I didn’t get that from the stream so for now I disagree with it (though I recognize my opinion may change when I play the game!) but I very much respect the point of view they bring and give them the credit that it is truly their opinion. I think generally we should all give each other that credit.

12
#1226 5 months ago

This just in.....

It ends up being "just a pinball machine" and the pre release hype machine ended up being an across the board over hype fest by every podcast falling all over themselves to blow Jack.

This pin has a LONG ways to go.

And, we know its NOT on the line, POTC is waiting on parts and the clock is ticking to meet their 60 day timeframe to ship.

I'm hoping for the best but it sounds like another load of crap.

I don't think they can keep up with the demand. People are gonna be pissed off waiting months while others get their pins based on no orderly distribution scheme like usual.

#1227 5 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I don't think they can keep up with the demand. People are gonna be pissed off waiting months while others get their pins based on no orderly distribution scheme like usual.

In the pinball business? I have no idea what you are talking about... <cough>CGC<cough>MBrLE<cough><cough>

-1
#1228 5 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

In the pinball business? I have no idea what you are talking about... &lt;cough&gt;CGC&lt;cough&gt;MBrLE&lt;cough&gt;&lt;cough&gt;

Jack needs your help Bubble! He needs a whole lot of help.

#1229 5 months ago
Quoted from phoenixpin:

Special When Lit for example (a great podcast!) titled their episode “The Pinball Landscape Is About To Change” which to me anyway implies a momentous shift with the new JJP game.

An addendum to my above post: if you write a bad headline, you're gonna have to own it. That's a bad headline. Literally nothing changed with Wonka, at absolute best it's another good JJP machine, for a price they've sold at before. That's it. If anything Dialed In was a bigger deal, if they could have understood how to make an unlicensed game connect with people better who knows? But "pinball manufacturer makes fun game from license you've already seen on slot machines" isn't changing the landscape any more than Batman66 did.

I FUCKING LOVED WONKA, THIS GAME IS GREAT is a personal opinion no one can argue with. THIS GAME WILL CHANGE EVERYTHING is some woah, chill, stuff.

Quoted from iceman44:

This just in.....
It ends up being "just a pinball machine" and the pre release hype machine ended up being an across the board over hype.

Yup. Just a pinball is fine for the record, but let's be real about it.

#1230 5 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

And, we know its NOT on the line, POTC is waiting on parts and the clock is ticking to meet their 60 day timeframe to ship.

I think JJP made a HUGE mistake with the reveal of Wonka. They had a CE game there, it was missing the powder coated rails, topper, side blade art, and furthermore without some preamped speakers you couldn't hear the sound. The music to Wonka is a big deal that no one could hear.

Have the Umpa Lumpa break off the CE and all that was their all weekend was a foot was also a misstep.

Furthermore the theming is not on par with other JJP games. Let me give you an example how this can be fixed...

They used plastic ramps... well why aren' the plastic ramps the chocolate river with decals. The bottom is chocolate, and the sides are suckers, gumdrop tree, etc. and instead of that ridiculous metal building on the left, that could be the boat. So in other words you're in Wonka's factory and the ramps is the path around the factory (chocolate river). Totally missed that one.

The ball lock was totally odd, should have done a see thru elevator to hold the balls. Another thing I was not a fan on was the powder coating. The blue clashes with the rest of the game, it should be some sort of green like the hair on the Umpa's or even purple. I'm also not a fan of the Candy Apple I'm sure that was choose because the word Candy is in the name. I think the colors on the powder coating don't enhance the cabinet. I would actually consider buying one and re-powder coat the entire thing. Most people will buy the LE and the powder coating is BLUE ON BLUE? HUH? Makes the game look like Dialed In? Who was thinking that looked good? Add more color its WILLY FREAKING WONKA... where is the GREEN or PURPLE?

I think they need to refine the theming some, finish the code, and present the game correctly the way it will be when its done.

There is nothing I hate more than hearing a salesperson say ... well oh yeah yeah that will be added later, oh yeah this is a prototype that will be changed, yeah the final version will have that. WHY?

Wonka can be the best game ever for JJP why NOT WAIT until its TOTALLY DONE!

Doesn't mean the game isn't great, just clearly wasn't ready to display.

I think they felt pressure to show something, they should have resisted and waited. Now the magic is spoiled. Hopefully they get another chance to display the game CORRECTLY!

I am going to buy one because there is many things to love about it, but when you only get one chance to showcase the game, do it 110% CORRECT!

In the future just announce YES we're doing Wonka, people already knew that right?

Then release some photos why not build hype for the release.

Then finally show the game when its 110% RIGHT, READY TO GO, ON THE LINE, YOU CAN BUY THE GAME!

People accuse me of being some JJP lover who won't ever say anything negative. WRONG! I call it the way I see it! Does it mean I don't love JJP no but when they screwed up they screwed up. They screwed up here putting the game on display before it was ready. There is real magic in the movie, it fills peoples heart with happiness just like WOZ. If you can't hear the songs, you don't capture the theme, you show pictures of a CE with a topper then you bring a game without one or the side blade art, and a broken toy, not good. Got to fix this!

#1231 5 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

An addendum to my above post: if you write a bad headline, you're gonna have to own it. That's a bad headline. Literally nothing changed with Wonka, at absolute best it's another good JJP machine, for a price they've sold at before. That's it. If anything Dialed In was a bigger deal, if they could have understood how to make an unlicensed game connect with people better who knows? But "pinball manufacturer makes fun game from license you've already seen on slot machines" isn't changing the landscape any more than Batman66 did.
I FUCKING LOVED WONKA, THIS GAME IS GREAT is a personal opinion no one can argue with. THIS GAME WILL CHANGE EVERYTHING is some woah, chill, stuff.

Yup. Just a pinball is fine for the record, but let's be real about it.

I tried to explain my thoughts and opinions a few different times in this thread. I'm not sure what you want me to own up to when I already explained my first impressions and why I feel the way I do? I'm not avoiding anything so does that mean I'm owning up to it? Did you actually play this game in a controlled environment yet? It presents much differently than watching it being played on a monitor and that's of no fault to the professional streamers that do a great job.

I respect most of the thoughts and opinions expressed here regarding Wonka. After playing the game you may feel the same way you do now and I can appreciate that too. The only issue I'm having is with a select few that seem to know everything about this pinball experience despite never playing the game. I'll never really understand that.

Pat Lawlor says in our panel discussion the he believes that Wonka is the pinnacle of what can be created right now in this century for a pinball machine. I feel Pat possibly knows a little more about pinball than most of us and I respect his opinion and analysis.

So I'll simply invite some of you to listen to this panel discussion that we recorded with Lawlor (designer), Katz(code), Youssi (art), Deo (sound), and Jersey Jack himself. It answers many of the questions some of you are asking and commenting on. It just may give you a better understanding of the story behind the game. Again, I'm not a professional journalist. I'm a pinball enthusiast that's been around for about 13 years. I'm not completely ignorant and more importantly I'm certainly no expert.

It is nice to see passion in pinball regardless of what your opinion may be.

http://specialwhenlitpinballpodcast.com/episode-47-making-of-willy-wonka-pinball

#1232 5 months ago

I would not agree with Pat Lawlor if he said that... he’s wrong.

Do Pinball games connect to the web yet? Do pinball games allow you to play your friends online? Pinball games are no longer incorporating mini games within the game, or fully using video Fx, pinball hasn’t been invovated the way it will be when the next group of fresh minded thinkers step onto the scene.

Pinball companies need to start looking to the future, new sets of eyes, with a new perspective, merge the old with the new. Every generation seems to learn from the past to build for the future.

I think Wonka is cool but it could be a lot better, everything can be better.

Pat Lawlor is a legend and I love what he’s done with Dialed In and as for Wonka I’ll judge it when I see the finished version.

With that being said that doesn’t mean that pinballs have reached a pinnacle because I would say far from it and just getting started... FREE THE NEW BlOOD and let them have their chance!!! Pinball companies should be asking them what really is the next level and try to not only get there but blow it out of the water.

#1233 5 months ago
Quoted from stpcore:

I tried to explain my thoughts and opinions a few different times in this thread. I'm not sure what you want me to own up to when I already explained my first impressions and why I feel the way I do? I'm not avoiding anything so does that mean I'm owning up to it?

It's just a bad headline. I already wrote a whole sermon on objectivism and passion, you do you, it's not the end of the world. We write bad headlines sometimes too. Over all I think your content is what matters, unless you write bad headlines daily, then that's a problem. You got excited and missed the mark a little, life goes on.

Unless you're defending it still? Are you saying Wonka has changed the pinball landscape? Because that's clearly not the case. I don't listen to podcasts, so if you actually fleshed that argument out I apologize, I haven't heard it. You don't have to make it again for me.

Quoted from stpcore:

Did you actually play this game in a controlled environment yet?

Nope, never seen it in person at all. Have no judgement on if it's fun or not because of that. I bet it's fun to shoot though. I'll play it eventually I imagine, I'm in no rush. Hopefully they fix up a lot before then.

Quoted from stpcore:

Pat Lawlor says in our panel discussion the he believes that Wonka is the pinnacle of what can be created right now in this century for a pinball machine.

Well, that's just clearly nonsense. Pat is marketing his new game. You might as well say "Gary Stern said in our interview that Black Knight is the best pinball game Stern has ever made."

#1234 5 months ago

To those that think the pinball landscape has changed now with the Wonka reveal - how so? Serious question. I was fully expecting something that was finally going to push Stern to up their game so to speak. The pinball landscape is just as it was a week ago as far as I can see but maybe I can be convinced otherwise. If anything, the $1000 price reduction on the SE will probably have a bigger impact than any feature on the playfield. It’s another solid JJP game but I was honestly much more wowed with the DI and POTC reveals than I was with this. What am I missing?

#1235 5 months ago

Stern's relationship with IGN for its releases is anything but independent and objective. They are secured launch promotion pieces.

#1236 5 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Does anyone else notice how a majority of the movie clips played in Wonka don't have the actor audio from the scene being played as well? It just seems odd to see all of the scenes from the movie on loop during a mode and yet you never hear the actor audio from them. Is it because just about everything in the game can be stacked? Without the actor audio being played in sync with the clips it takes away from the theme and the game suddenly has a generic vibe.
At factory mode starts a short clip from the scene with actor audio should be played, as shots are made you should see and hear the actor audio as the scene progresses. Instead we just see clips played on a loop without the actor audio which I don't think adds anything to the game. Even the Slugworth multiball mode doesn't feature scenes with audio and instead it's a giant Slugworth head just staring at you. Why not have the various scenes with actor audio involving Slugworth be played as jackpots during the mode are collected leading to a super jackpot shot that plays the final Slugworth scene where Willy Wonka reveals he's not actually bad after all.
Here's another example. In the "Wonkatana" mode at mode start you see the boat going into the tunnel and Gene Wilder saying something but you don't hear anything. Immediately the game cuts back to the main screen and you hear Gene Wilder start his crazy singing from later in that scene. This mode can be stacked with other modes and as a result I think it takes you out of it versus the mode standing on its own and be a separate event in the game.
Stacking almost every mode in a game can be great if there's a ton of content to work with. Willy Wonka however is a 100 minute movie, not 10+ hours like all the LOTR, Hobbit, and Pirates movies. The scenes from Willy Wonka are what make the movie fun and it's a bummer not to hear the actor audio being played when they are shown. That's theme integration and I feel it's partially missing from this game. Same goes for locking balls, you see Willy Wonka say something but don't hear the actor audio.

Ok unless something has dramatically changed at JJP I wouldn’t worry about this. It should get fixed in future updates. I have been along the ride for 3 of their pins and it takes them time to implement all of the assets. WOZ was a really long road from beginning to end, Hobbit was finished last year and DI was completed this year.

At each one of their release there has been a lot of criticism of the implementation of sound and assets but they always put it all together. My main concern is not having David Thiel at the helm for sound.

IMO when they say it is 60 percent done on code I am guessing this is about the theme integration. I doubt we will see an overhaul of the rules.

#1237 5 months ago

I guess we're all nerds at heart as I'm loving logogate!! Fascinating stuff Aurich... I also now can't unsee it.

(runs off to find other Wonka logos around the house)

Quoted from Aurich:

Look, design stuff can be, pardon the term, wonky. There’s stuff that’s a matter of personal taste. I could rant about the font choices on Ghostbusters, but no one would care. They’re not “broken” I just think they didn’t do it right. Wah wah wah, no one caaaaarrrrrres.
But this isn’t a taste thing, it’s basic mechanical stuff. Someone did a half assed job with a license worth who knows what. Millions probably if you factor it all in. And it doesn’t take anything special to see it once you know how to look.
Caring about this stuff is my job. And most companies care a lot too. I went back and forth with Microsoft the other week about if the text next to their logo should say “presented by” or “brought to you by”, and then when I thought it was settled they didn’t like the spacing of it, had to be the width of the squares away from the logo. 7 or 8 emails over minor stuff, but that’s business as usual.
I don’t know if the brat/kid multiball story is true. I believe it. Seems to me they were paying attention to the wrong stuff.

#1238 5 months ago
Quoted from stpcore:

How do you "know" this? Would love to hear how you know someone's thoughts and intentions. Sounds like you arent being "objective" and that's the irony here.

On Tuesdays and Wednesdays I can read minds - doesn’t work on Thursdays though!

Jokes aside - I know it because it’s human nature - its a “flaw” we all have although in my view it’s not a flaw it’s a glorious human strength to be positive about things. But the pro’s train themselves to cope with it but like any other profession it requires time, skill and experience and even then they often have first impression bias.

#1239 5 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Stern's relationship with IGN for it's releases is anything but independent and objective. They are secured launch promotion pieces.

Oh for sure but even with that they manage hype vs fact pretty decently.

-6
#1240 5 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:something needs to be said about how Stern has been charging $7500 for premiums and $9k for their LE's. It's obvious now they have a huge profit margin with their premium / LE's.

JJP pulls the monkey raises the price from $6,500 to $11,500 sells games directly so that JJP margins are the highest yet Stern overcharges

#1241 5 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Damn, Rarehero told me to check out the Blu-ray cover, and he was right, it's way more accurate to the original, no wonky Wonka auto trace issues. Got an amateur hour drop shadow under it, and a gold texture applied, but look, our friend the rounded candy is back in the H!

I think what you've written about the artwork makes sense and I learned quite a bit reading your posts. 99% of us don't even have 1% of your artistic knowledge.

What is your opinion of the playfield artwork? What are your thoughts about the 'sparkle' on the CE playfield? I care more about the playfield as that's what I'm looking at while I'm playing. I want the cab artwork to look good, but unless it's REALLY bad, it has zero impact on whether I purchase or not. I care more about the backglass artwork than the cab. With so little real estate to work with on a JJP backglass, that has to be tough to make it look good.

16
#1242 5 months ago
Quoted from JY64:

JJP pulls the monkey raises the price from $6,500 to $11,500 sells games directly so that JJP margins are the highest yet Stern overcharges

Are you just making stuff up now? JJP didn't make a profit on WOZ at $6500. Why are you even bringing WOZ up? Oh, because Wonka SE makes every Stern premium and LE look like an overpriced product for what you are getting.

Hey speaking of WOZ JJP just released yet another code update for the game! They have continued to support that game with code releases for 5+ years and for the past 4 years they just keep polishing the code. Meanwhile myself and other Ghostbusters owners have to wait 27+ months just for code on that game to be completed...

#1243 5 months ago
Quoted from drfrightner:

I am going to buy one because there is (sic) many things to love about it, but when you only get one chance to showcase the game, do it 110% CORRECT!

Oh, the irony.

#1244 5 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Are you just making stuff up now? JJP didn't make a profit on WOZ at $6500. Why are you even bringing WOZ up? Oh, because Wonka SE makes every Stern premium and LE look like an overpriced product for what you are getting.
Hey speaking of WOZ JJP just released yet another code update for the game! They have continued to support that game with code releases for 5+ years and for the past 4 years they just keep polishing the code. Meanwhile myself and other Ghostbusters owners have to wait 27+ months just for code on that game to be completed...

The Ghostbusters code meme. Considering what happen with the head designer on that pin.. there is no telling what is going on with the team and/or company's mind when it comes to GB. I feel some of the camp at Stern probably have wanted to distance themselves from it for various reasons.

10
#1245 5 months ago
Quoted from JY64:

JJP pulls the monkey raises the price from $6,500 to $11,500 sells games directly so that JJP margins are the highest yet Stern overcharges

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Are you just making stuff up now? JJP didn't make a profit on WOZ at $6500. Why are you even bringing WOZ up? Oh, because Wonka SE makes every Stern premium and LE look like an overpriced product for what you are getting.
Hey speaking of WOZ JJP just released yet another code update for the game! They have continued to support that game with code releases for 5+ years and for the past 4 years they just keep polishing the code. Meanwhile myself and other Ghostbusters owners have to wait 27+ months just for code on that game to be completed...

You 2 need to both get a room or put each other on ignore. Every stern or JJP thread has you 2 going back and forth to no end.

"You said WOZ, well I'll raise you one GB code and a purple nurple."

"Oh yeah well JJP sucks and your mommas fat"

This is what you 2 sound like.

-5
#1246 5 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Why are you even bringing WOZ up?

Why are you bringing up Stern in a WONK thread ?

#1247 5 months ago

Personally, I don't really care how they dotted their i's in the font. Art is important to pinball I get that but c'mon. These things are going to be put in basements and bars, not an art gallery. If it's not the font, it's how BK holds the sword, a misspelled word, or what direction the car is facing in Munsters. I agree Wonka art is a bit lacking and you expect a lot with JJP pricing but seems like there are plenty of bigger stuff to focus on like how a game plays, sounds, animations, etc.

#1248 5 months ago

Not that anyone cares, but the Oompah Loompah broke off BEFORE MGC, not DURING.

Also, big thumbs up on the ramps and ship comment made before. Those would look killer on the PF. Unfortunately, I think we're too far along in production to see JJP make those changes.

#1249 5 months ago

I was in on one of these until I found out there is no "ball" connecting the H. Fuck.

#1250 5 months ago
Quoted from Chippewa-Pin:

I think what you've written about the artwork makes sense and I learned quite a bit reading your posts. 99% of us don't even have 1% of your artistic knowledge.
What is your opinion of the playfield artwork? What are your thoughts about the 'sparkle' on the CE playfield? I care more about the playfield as that's what I'm looking at while I'm playing. I want the cab artwork to look good, but unless it's REALLY bad, it has zero impact on whether I purchase or not. I care more about the backglass artwork than the cab. With so little real estate to work with on a JJP backglass, that has to be tough to make it look good.

The playfield is okay. Look, I'm not trying to tear the game down, but it kind of is what it is. It's the same license the slot machines and everything else have, with the same assets. You get the logo, we talked about it. You get the same pics of the kids for the inserts. You get the 3 or 4 drawings of Gene Wilder. Clearly that's all they had, they used it as best they could, and put candy over the rest of it.

I'm personally very sympathetic to how license restrictions work, I think the package is fine for what it is. Do I love it? Not really, I'm not gonna pretend otherwise. "It looks like the slot machine" is basically never a plus in my book for anything. Honestly the more I looked up packages for this license during research the cheaper it all felt, they'll sell Gene Wilder's face for anything, and it's a bit sad.

This isn't WOZ, where they got to do their own hand painted art. It's not Hobbit where they had a ton of great high rez assets to work with. Old movies don't have all the great marketing material and promo stuff, no hard drives full of huge files waiting to be used. On Alien it took them literally months to find me a decent image of the classic 'egg' poster, nobody knew what happened to it. Movie is from the late 70s, probably had a cardboard box on a shelf with stuff for it and that's it you know? I'm sure on Wonka they were told "here's the license package, you can use this" and that was that.

I think every other JJP game has a stronger visual package than Wonka, but that's because Wonka is just okay and the other games range from pretty good to great to me. Might end up the best JJP shooter, who knows, just talking about the art. What weight you put on that is a personal decision.

Quoted from jawjaw:

Personally, I don't really care how they dotted their i's in the font.

If that's what you got out of it that's fine.

Quoted from gliebig:

I was in on one of these until I found out there is no "ball" connecting the H. Fuck.

Hey, you at least read it.

Quoted from thewool:

I guess we're all nerds at heart as I'm loving logogate!! Fascinating stuff Aurich... I also now can't unsee it.
(runs off to find other Wonka logos around the house)

Design is fun, learning to look at the world through a new lens is fun. I share this kind of stuff because I enjoy it, but also because my hope is that education leads to us expecting more. I'm not trying to tear down, but build up. If you appreciate design in your life even a little bit more now as you run around your house I'm loving it.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 2.50
Playfield - Protection
Pinball Mod Co.
$ 27.50
$ 26.50
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lermods
$ 7,500.00
Pinball Machine
Great American Pinball
$ 9,500.00
Pinball Machine
Nitro Pinball Shop
From: $ 7,500.00
Pinball Machine
Operation Pinball
There are 1434 posts in this topic. You are on page 25 of 29.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside