(Topic ID: 240285)

Willy Wonka reveal details


By screaminr

12 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 1,434 posts
  • 369 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 months ago by pinballwil
  • Topic is favorited by 43 Pinsiders

You

Topic poll

“Who wants what”

  • SE 46 votes
    32%
  • LE 70 votes
    48%
  • CE 30 votes
    21%

(146 votes)

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#951 11 months ago
Quoted from Lermods:

Powder $450? I don’t think so.

Think or know? How many powder jobs have you gotten done of late?

This is at least a 11 piece job... plus all the bolts. plus you would normally source new siderails verse fighting the stainless and have to be picky in the lockdown bar. It’s not no $100 job... people doing it in their garage aren’t even that cheap.

#952 11 months ago
Quoted from Neal_W:

Those little inserts glow nicely without the key lines and match the candy art there.
[quoted image]

They said on the stream there are magnets in those areas.

#953 11 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Think or know? How many powder jobs have you gotten done of late?
This is at least a 11 piece job... plus all the bolts. plus you would normally source new siderails verse fighting the stainless and have to be picky in the lockdown bar. It’s not no $100 job... people doing it in their garage aren’t even that cheap.

Powder itself is pretty cheap...getting it done correctly is definitely not....have to agree w this post.....JJP powder is pretty much the nicest I've seen, and high-end powder jobs, done by pros, is an artform (not garage work..took that route once...never again)...definitely not cheap. If you're spending this kind of $$ on this (or any other) title, powder job needs to be equally impressive...

#954 11 months ago
Quoted from thirdedition:

They said on the stream there are magnets in those areas.

wondered about that...to those who were there and played it, does the magnet "pattern" become obvious, or just slings the ball around? curious on how that all works...could be pretty cool...

#955 11 months ago
Quoted from thirdedition:

They said on the stream there are magnets in those areas.

Yup, just got to that part at the end of the stream. Eric called them "Pipe Inserts" with a mini magnet in the center of each of the 6 clusters.

#956 11 months ago
Quoted from Lermods:

What exactly does the ball lock do in the LE compared to the SE? Is it just a mechanical vs virtual lock like in Iron Maiden pro vs premium/le? I’ve read about stealing balls with the mechanical lock, but not the virtual. I have a deposit down on an LE, but am not thrilled with what the LE offers relative to the SE.
Can a shaker be added to a SE?
Shaker, glass and powder cost about $550 so it’s really this ball lock mech that becomes the difference.

Shaker $100, invisiglass $300, where can you get quality sparkle powder oat done to rails, lockdown, and wireforms for $150?

I’d like to get it done on my MBr and $150 would be awesome.

#957 11 months ago
Quoted from Neal_W:

Yup, just got to that part at the end of the stream. Eric called them "Pipe Inserts" with a mini magnet in the center of each of the 6 clusters.

Sweet!!!

#958 11 months ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

I believe there is a diverter back there to put the ball in different places

There isnt. I asked Keith. It just depends how hard you shoot it as to where the middle shot goes.

#959 11 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

That’s why they call you “Crazy” Levi
Just pulling shit out of your ass again!
It’s been 8 yrs now and millions in JJP losses. AP can do the same thing
At least they actually announce and get games out the door. A fine effort thus far that should only get better

I think your rooting for AP like I did for JJP early on. WOZ and Jack won me over. I see it now like JJP has already turned the corner, and is now the premier pinball company. If AP would have waited a few weeks or months to get Houdini shooting right instead of cranking out a frustrating clunker - maybe I’d be pulling for them more too. I don’t know about either companies financials, but JJP has built allot of games already, are committed to building the best games, and have monstrously deep pockets

#960 11 months ago
Quoted from Kneissl:

Did I miss this.. Why is the artwork cut out around these lights?
https://images.pinside.com/5/8c/ab/58cabe43a0dfcb2bc6474804b156334f2e2f8f86.jpg
[quoted image]

Quoted from Neal_W:

Those little inserts glow nicely without the key lines and match the candy art there.
[quoted image]

Quoted from mnpinball:

Those are multicolored RGB lights to resemble sparkling during certain modes

They are lights and magnets under there. The sheet says 7 magnets. 3 under each set and 1 above the upper left flipper. Pat lawlor told me that it will do really cool patterns during multiball and other situations.

#961 11 months ago
Quoted from mountaingamer:

I think your rooting for AP like I did for JJP early on. WOZ and Jack won me over. I see it now like JJP has already turned the corner, and is now the premier pinball company. If AP would have waited a few weeks or months to get Houdini shooting right instead of cranking out a frustrating clunker - maybe I’d be pulling for them more too. I don’t know about either companies financials, but JJP has built allot of games already, are committed to building the best games, and have monstrously deep pockets

I was in on Woz day one. And a big cheerleader.

JJP had to bring in deep pockets because they would have gone out of business after Hobbit

Gamer you are the ultimate JJP fanboy, that’s ok, you like what you like. In your eyes they do nothing wrong

I like to consider ALL games. It’s just pinball

Didn’t get a Houdini. Getting an Oktoberfest delivered soon

So yeah, I’m rooting for everybody to make it work

#962 11 months ago
Quoted from SheriffBarclay:Where is this info from? Podcast interview?

From the guy whose family is the investor in JJP. He mentioned it to a bunch of us at the reveal. I forgot his name. He’s the guy who talked first at the reveal.

#963 11 months ago
Quoted from Willy39:

What’s the song list? Is Candy Man in the game?

Pure imagination - final wizard mode and a few other spots
Oompa loompa- pops, and a captive ball "?" Mode and maybe somewhere else, not sure.
I want it now - golden egg room
I got a golden ticket -main theme throughout

M&M's/Mars wanted a a ridiculous amount of money for Candy Man, to which they own the rights.

#964 11 months ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

M&M's/Mars wanted a a ridiculous amount of money for Candy Man, to which they own the rights.

Too bad, if true.

Zynga has a new game out for iOS/Android, Wonka’s World of Candy, that uses a mixture of Candy Man and Pure Imagination as its main themes, and it comes off much more upbeat sounding than JJP’s (I’ve Got a) Golden Ticket.

Zynga’s game has a lot of nice audio clips that are, so far, missing in JJP’s game as well. Even short little phrases, like Grandpa Joe saying “It’s a miracle!” could really add a lot to the pinball game.

Quoted from Zavadoza:

Pure imagination - final wizard mode

With Pure Imagination being the one song everyone remembers most besides Candy Man, I can’t say that saving it for a Wizard mode that 90% of players won’t ever see/hear is a very good idea.

Don’t get roped into playing too many rounds, lol, but check out Zynga’s game for some nice Wonka music and voice integration.

CCD61A3C-0A07-4B26-976C-4D4DF4911A66 (resized).jpeg

https://www.zynga.com/games/wonkas-world-of-candy

#965 11 months ago
Quoted from Amused_to_Death:

Too bad, if true.
Zynga has a new game out for iOS/Android, Wonka’s World of Candy, that uses a mixture of Candy Man and Pure Imagination as its main themes, and it comes off much more upbeat sounding than JJP’s (I’ve Got a) Golden Ticket.
Zynga’s game has a lot of nice audio clips that are, so far, missing in JJP’s game as well. Even short little phrases, like Grandpa Joe saying “It’s a miracle!” could really add a lot to the pinball game.

With Pure Imagination being the one song everyone remembers most besides Candy Man, I cant say that saving it for a Wizard mode that 90% of players won’t ever see/hear is a very good idea.
Don’t get roped into playing too many rounds, lol, but check out Zynga’s game for some nice music and voice integration.
[quoted image]
https://www.zynga.com/games/wonkas-world-of-candy

That’s why it’s in multiple spots, not just the wizard mode.

#966 11 months ago
Quoted from dirtbag66:

I really think the idea of lowering the standard by $1000 is to destroy companies like American. If they don't counter and lower the prices of Houdini and Oktoberfest, they are in serious trouble.
Oktoberfest - $7400
Standard Wonka - $7500
That's just not fair.

Fair? Who said business is fair? These guys, JJP, Stern, AP, etc. are in this for money. It's not a hobby to them. As a business owner I know this first hand. If you want to survive and make money to support your family you have to find what the customer wants and what price they are willing to pay for it. Trial and error. Don't make the mistake that they are doing this for fun. You may be in a hobby but they certainly are not.
Sorry, rant off.

#967 11 months ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

That’s why it’s in multiple spots, not just the wizard mode.

Any idea what these multiple spots are? I watched all eleventy-seven hours of the reveal on Twitch and never once heard Pure Imagination.

It was more than a bit strange, too, to SEE Veruca singing I Want It Now but HEARING absolutely none of it. I’m not sure what the point of using silent film clips is supposed to be.

I could have swore Wonka is a musical!

#968 11 months ago
Quoted from Amused_to_Death:

Any idea what these multiple spots are? I watched all eleventy-seven hours of the reveal on Twitch and never once heard Pure Imagination.
It was more than a bit strange, too, to SEE Veruca singing I Want It Now but HEARING absolutely none of it. I’m not sure what the point of using silent film clips is supposed to be.
I could have swore Wonka is a musical!

Prototypes with release code.... it will all get worked out in the next few months. I think it great allready but can only get better... i mean look how far woz, hobbit and di have came since release

#969 11 months ago
Quoted from avspin:

Fair? Who said business is fair? These guys, JJP, Stern, AP, etc. are in this for money. It's not a hobby to them. As a business owner I know this first hand. If you want to survive and make money to support your family you have to find what the customer wants and what price they are willing to pay for it. Trial and error. Don't make the mistake that they are doing this for fun. You may be in a hobby but they certainly are not.
Sorry, rant off.

That wasn’t a rant.

#970 11 months ago
Quoted from Amused_to_Death:

Any idea what these multiple spots are? I watched all eleventy-seven hours of the reveal on Twitch and never once heard Pure Imagination.
It was more than a bit strange, too, to SEE Veruca singing I Want It Now but HEARING absolutely none of it. I’m not sure what the point of using silent film clips is supposed to be.
I could have swore Wonka is a musical!

I don’t. I don’t think it’s all in the game yet. You can hear it playing with no words, just like all the other songs. I made the same point to Joe Katz (about never hearing the best song) and he said they will have it in a couple places, not just the final wizard mode.

#971 11 months ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

I don’t. I don’t think it’s all in the game yet. You can hear it playing with no words, just like all the other songs. I made the same point to Joe Katz (about never hearing the best song) and he said they will have it in a couple places, not just the final wizard mode.

That's good to hear. The theme integration of sound,music, and video just didn't do it for me. I can't believe there's not custom oompa Loompa songs like in the slots, for example. On the other hand, I thought the play field was fantastic so the base of a great game is there and I'm sure everyone getting one will enjoy it. Hopefully the other stuff will get there with updates.

#972 11 months ago
Quoted from iloveplywood:

The theme integration of sound,music, and video just didn't do it for me.

I was super happy to hear Gene Wilder's complete rendition of the Wonkatania song in the SDTM game play video. I think JJP will come through here. This is an awesome upgrade from the JJP POTC "we can't play the main POTC theme song" situation we faced previously (though I do love the JJP POTC custom soundtrack!).

#973 11 months ago

Please explain the Wonka-vator ball lock on the Standard Edition. If it's virtual, how can locked balls be stolen by other players or carried over from game to game? Is there a chance this entire feature in the code is omitted in the SE?

#974 11 months ago
Quoted from Jason_Jehosaphat:

Please explain the Wonka-vator ball lock on the Standard Edition. If it's virtual, how can locked balls be stolen by other players or carried over from game to game? Is there a chance this entire feature in the code is omitted in the SE?

They said that, in the standard edition, there is no lock stealing or carrying over from game-to-game. The mode will be there though, if you do it all yourself in one game.

#975 11 months ago

So you can steal locks from other players in the LE and CE? Can you turn this off in the settings!

#976 11 months ago
Quoted from pascal-pinball:

So you can steal locks from other players in the LE and CE? Can you turn this off in the settings!

Yes

#978 11 months ago

Has an official list been released as to which songs from the movie are utilized in the game?

#979 11 months ago
Quoted from dirtbag66:

I really think the idea of lowering the standard by $1000 is to destroy companies like American. If they don't counter and lower the prices of Houdini and Oktoberfest, they are in serious trouble.
Oktoberfest - $7400
Standard Wonka - $7500
That's just not fair.

JJP don't give a toss about American, they are trying to keep themselves in business first! so no I don't agree.

In my view its the first recognition that JJP has realised they had the pricing wrong on its games for a while with some experimentation they have done on recent hobbit deals they've probably found a sweet spot thats going to shift a lot more tin and wood. And from my POV a welcome decision. Look at the after market pricing on Dialed in, to sell them you have to seriously take a punch on the price I got mine for nearly £3000 of the list! with a few hundred plays on it. They've taken a mech out (Which in no way represents the $1000) to placate those paying a lot more, you can see it when you are in arcades around the world, the only JJP game that is usually there is WoZ because operators have got so much choice in the market why would they pony up $2000 more on a game that isn't going to make them any more money than one for $6000, I can see future JJP games being designed for a BOM that starts at that price-margin (and maybe lower if this doesn't work).

#980 11 months ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

Has an official list been released as to which songs from the movie are utilized in the game?

Quoted from Zavadoza:

I don’t. I don’t think it’s all in the game yet. You can hear it playing with no words, just like all the other songs. I made the same point to Joe Katz (about never hearing the best song) and he said they will have it in a couple places, not just the final wizard mode.

They need to use the music tied more to modes in my view, can you imagine iron maiden with hitting a target getting a short play of run to the hills? no no no. What they need is a banging high tempo remake of the Oompaloompa song as a mini frenzy wizard mode, or bin the kid multi ball and get them dancing all over the freaking screens during that multi ball make all those freaking lights light up like someone dropped a nuke, bring the movie into the modern era... (waits for the wrath of pinside to shoot me in the head).

10
#981 11 months ago

So I played Wonka this weekend, it was a pre-production machine. It looks great, nice standard body, full color. Some differences I noticed with the Buffalo stream was there was no decal on the 'most secret machine' lock, it was black plastic . And there was an Umpa Lumpa next to the camera (just saw that it was there but broke off). The lighting is really beautifull even while we did not see it in the dark, the lighting in the hall was bad. The theme, looks and sound will go perfectly next to a Woz. The music is similar in setup, the Wonka theme and sounds are there. The video looks great, Wonka is there, other actors are there. Looks just great.

Machine was set on 3 ball, shots are great, most difficult shot for me was the left upperflipper shot. The rest of the shots are not that difficult, shots in the back with the Wonkavision and the elevator are not that hard. The magnets hold you ball for the upper flipper so you have some time to make the shot. I saw a lot of Gopstopper multiballs, I did not see the elevator multiball, seems harder to get. Firts impression, great machine, beautifull colors, great shots.

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#982 11 months ago
Quoted from Rensh:

Player several games on Wonka this weekend in Paris.
Really gave me a mix of feelings when playing of WOZ and DI. The music style is similar to WOZ and shooting is a lot like DI. Flippers were not weak, shot great.
I have not seeing anything which blows the competition out of the water but it is a great looking pin (Munsters LE wins on looks btw) with a lot of shots (Wonka wins on this over MunstersLE) and it is a kids theme like a WOZ which you will like or dislike.
For me a WOZ is a no go but that’s also because it’s a wide body, a Wonka is a standard body which helps a lot. Lcd animations are great, use of the clips is Mweh. I like the goblertoy and the shots are easy to make and feel good.

+1 Rens... btw, you have more hair than me ! see you

WP_20190413_18_42_17_Pro (resized).jpg

#983 11 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Think or know? How many powder jobs have you gotten done of late?
This is at least a 11 piece job... plus all the bolts. plus you would normally source new siderails verse fighting the stainless and have to be picky in the lockdown bar. It’s not no $100 job... people doing it in their garage aren’t even that cheap.

Quoted from MK6PIN:

Powder itself is pretty cheap...getting it done correctly is definitely not....have to agree w this post.....JJP powder is pretty much the nicest I've seen, and high-end powder jobs, done by pros, is an artform (not garage work..took that route once...never again)...definitely not cheap. If you're spending this kind of $$ on this (or any other) title, powder job needs to be equally impressive...

Quoted from f3honda4me:

Shaker $100, invisiglass $300, where can you get quality sparkle powder oat done to rails, lockdown, and wireforms for $150?
I’d like to get it done on my MBr and $150 would be awesome.

I already mentioned it, call a local wheel place, it’s $10 a part plus $20-30 for the powder itself, any prismatic color that doesn’t require superchroma. I usually stick to the illusion series from prismatic. If the parts are already stainless, no up charge, if the parts have the black wrinkle like on stern pros, it’s a little more because parts need to be sand blasted. I don’t get the bolts done. It’s not some guy doing it out of his garage and it’s not any particular form of art, it’s a process that if done right comes out well. Ive had a bunch of games done, all perfect. Sorry if it’s hard to believe. $150 tops (legs, hinges, rails, shooter housing) add $30 for the coindoor, which I never do.

#984 11 months ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

They need to use the music tied more to modes in my view, can you imagine iron maiden with hitting a target getting a short play of run to the hills? no no no. What they need is a banging high tempo remake of the Oompaloompa song as a mini frenzy wizard mode, or bin the kid multi ball and get them dancing all over the freaking screens during that multi ball make all those freaking lights light up like someone dropped a nuke, bring the movie into the modern era... (waits for the wrath of pinside to shoot me in the head).

You need to love this music, or it is just going to drive you insane

Imagine inviting friends round who are not into pinball.

'Guys, who is going to get kid multiball first'?

Silence.

What can they say?!

But WONKA clearly looks like JJP's best shooter by miles.

You gotta love the movie though.

#985 11 months ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

You need to love this music, or it is just going to drive you insane
Imagine inviting friends round who are not into pinball.
'Guys, who is going to get kid multiball first'?
Silence.
What can they say?!
But WONKA clearly looks like JJP's best shooter by miles.
You gotta love the movie though.

I dont love the movie but I'm very impressed with the pin. I also believe that the code will continue to evolve and that may alter the presentation of the audio to be a more pleasant experience for some. It's a great shooting game and an overall pinball experience.

#986 11 months ago
20190413_095830 (resized).jpg
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#987 11 months ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

WONKA clearly looks like JJP's best shooter by miles.

lol have you not seen or played DI?

How can you say DI is not a good shooter? It’s the definition of shoots like butter.

#988 11 months ago

A great looking rules sheet! I wouldn't mind blowing it up / framing it and hanging it on a wall near the game.

pdf for download:

http://marketing.jerseyjackpinball.com/ww/WW_Rules_April19.pdf

#989 11 months ago

I love JJP rule flow chart, so much to see and do.

#990 11 months ago
Quoted from rai:

lol have you not seen or played DI?
How can you say DI is not a good shooter? It’s the definition of shoots like butter.

Played DI many many times.

For me it's overrated, and not as smooth as WONKA.

And I dislike the theme more than this game

#991 11 months ago
Quoted from Kneissl:

Did I miss this.. Why is the artwork cut out around these lights?
https://images.pinside.com/5/8c/ab/58cabe43a0dfcb2bc6474804b156334f2e2f8f86.jpg
[quoted image]

From what I understand, there are small magnets around these lights

#992 11 months ago
Quoted from Lermods:

if the parts have the black wrinkle like on stern pros, it’s a little more because parts need to be sand blasted

this black wrinkle paint - basically just a low gloss black - anybody know what the substrate is underneath ? - is it going to be stainless steel or is it a low price steel which would corrode if it isn't painted ?

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#993 11 months ago

I love the internets...

You guys are trying to justify the cost of an LE by the sum costs of the extra parts.
I wonder if you do the same thing when you buy a car

Some people just want factory installed options, they don't want to pull off rails to get powder coated, change out the glass, and add this and that.
If you do great, but why does everyone feel the need to argue so much about what it's worth... to some the upcharge to a LE or CE is not a big deal - it's going to be different for everyone based on what they want and can afford - arguing it is sort of senseless as there is no right answer.

#994 11 months ago
Quoted from robotron:

what bothers me is the sideart on the 7500 machine. basically says to the buyer “you bought the cheap machine so you dont deserve nice sideart”

I will be devil's advocate on this one

What about looking at it from a marketing-sales perspective. What makes people want to spend more money on an LE or CE-the upgrades(including art). You have good, better, and best-all with different price tiers. I think it is smart of JJP to really differentiate the three models and represent what you are truly paying for. They would cannibalize potential LE and CE models if they offered a Standard with comparable features. Stern has done this in the past where they accidently make the Pro art more attractive than the Premium/LE models and in turn they lose out on potential sales. While I do think the cabinet on the Standard model is generic-for the price point it does not bother me and I understand why they did it. Props to JJP

#995 11 months ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

Some people just want factory installed options, they don't want to pull off rails to get powder coated, change out the glass, and add this and that.
If you do great, but why does everyone feel the need to argue so much about what it's worth... to some the upcharge to a LE or CE is not a big deal - it's going to be different for everyone based on what they want and can afford - arguing it is sort of senseless as there is no right answer.

Exactly right. It’s not just the cost of the parts, it’s also the hassle/time of the labor and the possibility of messing something up in the process.

Getting it all from the factory the way you want it has value.

#996 11 months ago

The more streams I watch of this pin, the more excited I am. I really like the flow and the ruleset looks great for all skill levels. The fun factor looks high. I have full confidence in JJP that video clips, call outs, misspellings, flipper strength, topper and side art will all be to my liking once the pins are produced and into the future for code releases/enhancements.

While I agree that the side art of the SE is rather lacking, I did notice that all 3 of the pre-production models have the same front and head decals. If it 'only' ends up being different on the sides, i don't think it's that big of a deal, especially for those in a lineup in a home or on location. I'm actually in for a CE. Yes, it's a bunch more extra cash, but the pin is actually for my wife and that's what she liked best... although she would prefer purple powder coating vs red.

The entire JJP team should be proud of what they have so far.

#997 11 months ago
Quoted from Amused_to_Death:

A great looking rules sheet! I wouldn't mind blowing it up / framing it and hanging it on a wall near the game.
pdf for download:
http://marketing.jerseyjackpinball.com/ww/WW_Rules_April19.pdf

I wish I had this for my Iron Maiden!

#998 11 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Exactly right. It’s not just the cost of the parts, it’s also the hassle/time of the labor and the possibility of messing something up in the process.
Getting it all from the factory the way you want it has value.

Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

I love the internets...
You guys are trying to justify the cost of an LE by the sum costs of the extra parts.
I wonder if you do the same thing when you buy a car
Some people just want factory installed options, they don't want to pull off rails to get powder coated, change out the glass, and add this and that.
If you do great, but why does everyone feel the need to argue so much about what it's worth... to some the upcharge to a LE or CE is not a big deal - it's going to be different for everyone based on what they want and can afford - arguing it is sort of senseless as there is no right answer.

Yes and no. Yes, it is always nice to get everything done by the factory, but on the no side, the cost is very high between the two models. $2k is a lot of money for the added options on the LE.

I need to see these games in person to decide which I want. I hated the MBr CE and moved to the SE, which I love. Want to make sure I don't make the same mistake on this one.

And yes, I always do this with cars too. Bought a Honda pilot recently, put running boards on myself, saved $600 took 1 hour to install.

#999 11 months ago

Back from MGC, and finally catching up on here.. I'm pretty surprised by all the negativity. It's true there isn't really that one amazing mechanical device that will wow the player, but the entire package together and how it shoots is fantastic.. one of the best shooting games I've played in many years. I LOVE how you can essentially climb the ladder from the upper left flipper to the upper right flipper and into the ramp shot from there... There are so many shots in this game for being a standard body.

I wish I could have heard the game more, but if people say there isn't much in there yet, then I would really hope that gets fixed with more code (I'm sure it will.)

Everyone can nitpick anything on any game, but first impressions on the actual game was just how great it shoots right off the bat. Played this way more than Black Knight, but that's also mainly due to I know we will have several of those games in town SOON, while we almost never see JJP games pop up on location, sadly.

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#1000 11 months ago

If I were to remove the expectation of this game really innovating and having something we've never seen before (thanks kaneda) - I would be very happy. Now that I've seen it that expectation not being met definitely stung a little which is why I'm not overly impressed.

I wonder how many folks had a similar reaction.

I will say though that I'm almost certain about buying a standard bc it looks like a better themed DI with a sprinkle of WoZ magic.

Not sure how they go from that CE POTC topper to the CE Wonka topper unless it's just a placeholder. Chocolate River topper opportunity completely missed.

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