(Topic ID: 177387)

Williams Yukon start up sequence help

By Brypten

7 years ago


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#1 7 years ago

I'm close with this Williams Yukon Special but just can't quite get it to go. I do have the schematics and manual but I am not that well versed with williams em schematics.

After fixing a few things I am now stuck. When I turn the game on, I can advance the score reels by tripping the relays. When I credit a game, it resets all the score reels and counts up to 5 balls in play. When I put a ball in, the outhole relay locks on and the score motor starts to turn again. It does not kick the ball out, and the score motor runs continuously. So close! Also nothing will score and the flippers aren't energized.

When I first turn the game on, it says tilt instead of game over, not sure if that's right.

#2 7 years ago

I think that era game has a Trip/ Latch relay called game relay or maybe game over relay. It has contacts on it that enable coil power to the playfield. It seems that all you are missing is the kick to the outhole coil. With the Ball no longer on the outhole switch, your outhole relay should drop out at end of cycle of the score motor.

#3 7 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

I think that era game has a Trip/ Latch relay called game relay or maybe game over relay. It has contacts on it that enable coil power to the playfield. It seems that all you are missing is the kick to the outhole coil. With the Ball no longer on the outhole switch, your outhole relay should drop out at end of cycle of the score motor.

The game over relay latches on as soon as I turn the machine on. It let's go once you credit the machine. Does not latch when you put a ball in the outhole.

Also, once you credit the machine, the credit relay locks on and does not turn off...

#4 7 years ago

Still check (clean and gap) the contacts on the game over relay. The wms trip latch relays are very problematic due to limited armature travel.

You can also use an alligator clip jumper to jumper across any switch leafs that are closed in the that state.

Posting A photo capture from the schematic of the outhole kicker coil and associated switches would be helpful.

#5 7 years ago

Here are some pictures of the schematic

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#6 7 years ago

So looking at the schematics my ball count unit open @ zero does not appear to be closing. I believe the index e motor switch is working because my eject relays work.

#7 7 years ago

Although that doesn't make sense either because what would tell the score motor to stop turning? Man I suck at em schematics!

#8 7 years ago
Quoted from Brypten:

looking at the schematics my ball count unit open @ zero does not appear to be closing.

it must for the game to start. you can put a clip lead accross the switch lugs for testing.

Quoted from Brypten:what would tell the score motor to stop turning?

opening of all the switches in that line. the game is designed so that any of those switches closing, will make the motor run.

#9 7 years ago

Hi Brypten
"Outhole-Relay pulls-in BUT the Ball is NOT kicked over to the Shooter Alley":
I refer to pic-2 in post-1 --- somewhat on top of the picture to the right: Wire Yellow comes from the transformer to a "Switch on Outhole-Relay". From there wire-grey-green runs to Score-Motor-Switch (probably 1-B) - then wire-blue-white runs to "Coil on Ball-Release-Kicker. The OTHER side of this coil has soldered-on: one or two wires RED.

Does the Kicker-Coil fires when You make a direct connection for "a tenth of a second": Toggle-off the pin, unplug the 110VAC cord (Safety Reasons) - clip-on a Jumper-Wire at Transformer-Lug "Two wires Yellow are soldered-on". Take the other end of the Jumper-Wire NEAR the Coil of the Kicker - NOT TOUCHING METAL.
Plug-in, toggle-on, start a game .... then grab the insulation,grab the wire, the Jumper-Wire and tip-on the gator-clip onto: "Coil on Kicker, lug with wire-blue-white soldered-on" --- does the coil fire ? Greetings Rolf

#10 7 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Brypten
"Outhole-Relay pulls-in BUT the Ball is NOT kicked over to the Shooter Alley":
I refer to pic-2 in post-1 --- somewhat on top of the picture to the right: Wire Yellow comes from the transformer to a "Switch on Outhole-Relay". From there wire-grey-green runs to Score-Motor-Switch (probably 1-B) - then wire-blue-white runs to "Coil on Ball-Release-Kicker. The OTHER side of this coil has soldered-on: one or two wires RED.
Does the Kicker-Coil fires when You make a direct connection for "a tenth of a second": Toggle-off the pin, unplug the 110VAC cord (Safety Reasons) - clip-on a Jumper-Wire at Transformer-Lug "Two wires Yellow are soldered-on". Take the other end of the Jumper-Wire NEAR the Coil of the Kicker - NOT TOUCHING METAL.
Plug-in, toggle-on, start a game .... then grab the insulation,grab the wire, the Jumper-Wire and tip-on the gator-clip onto: "Coil on Kicker, lug with wire-blue-white soldered-on" --- does the coil fire ? Greetings Rolf

I was able to follow the wires and all the switches seem ok per part one above. However when I jump the transformer to the outhole coil, it does not fire. If I connect the transformer to the eject relay it works, so I know my jumper is good.

What gives that coil power? I think I have a better chance tracing the wire back than looking at these schematics!

#11 7 years ago

Braving the schematics it looks like the reset relay would give power to the outhole coil. Going to check now

#12 7 years ago

The relay looks ok but there is an interesting hack. Those black wires go up to my eject relays I believe.

So on my game I have a outhole relay and an outhole coil that kicks the ball out. Where are they on the schematics? I don't know how to tell them apart

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#13 7 years ago

Hi Brypten
I let post-13 for the moment and concentrate on post-10. No luck with jumpering --- some theory:

The schematics is "abstract, drawn beautyful, stuff is grouped by 'functionality' ". Look at many Williams-Schematics - it always looks the same.
On the left (schematics) there is the transformer - then comes stuff "throwing-in coins, starting the game" --- outmost right there are Bumper-Coils, Slingshot-Kicker-Coils and the Flipper-Bats.
Look at the JPG - the 25 Cent-Relay has DIRECT connection on the POWER-Side (wire-black to fuse to Transformer-HOT). To operate the 25-Cent-Relay: Switches on the RETURN-Side to Transformer-Lug-YELLOW are closed.

Williams do not want YOU to operate the flipper-bats (and other stuff) when the game is OVER --- they sneaked-in into the POWER-Side-Connection a "Switch on Game-Over-Relay to open" (see it ?) ALSO YOU shall not operate the flipper-bats (and other stuff) when the pin is busy "resetting" so they sneaked-in a "Switch to open when the Reset-Stuff happens , means the Reset-Reset-Relay is pulling" (see the switch ?). As the schematics is beautyful, GROUPED: The BALL-RELEASE-COIL is drawn near other stuff handling the Ball --- BUT the connection on the POWER-Side is AFTER the "Switch on Game-Over-Relay" (see my pink line ?)

"Why does the "Coil on Ball-Release-Kicker" NOT fire ? The jumpering on the "Return-side to transformer-yellow" did not make it fire --- maybe (maybe) the connection on the POWER-Side is no good ???
Test-Variation-AAA: Toggle-off the pin and set a permanent Jumper "like my pink line" - connecting the Coil on Ball-Release (side lug-red) to Switch on Game-Over-Relay - side lug-red. Then toggle-on, start a game ... do testing as written in post-9.
Test-Variation-BBB: BECAUSE You have "no firing" with the "test like in post-9": You can do a permanent jumper on the return-side (((Just for testing !!!))) --- then take another Jumper-Wire, clip-on at Ball-Release-Coil-side-red --- start a game ... tip the gator-clip onto FUSE-HOLDER SIDE "WIRE-BLACK IS SOLDERED-ON" (((NEVER USE the other side on the Fuse-Holder --- You ALWAYS want the FUSE IN (!!!) YOUR circuitry !!!))). NEVER touch wire / metal on POWER-Side --- ALWAYS grab the INSULATED wire, NOT the gator-clip, greetings Rolf

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#14 7 years ago

As Rolf has pointed out, the ball release coil gets its power directly from the Red power wire BEFORE the Game over relay contacts that power the other playfield coils.

The Ball Release coil may be the only playfield coil that uses the RED wire so your problem may be as simple as a bad Jones plug ( those peg style connectors that are used to disconnect the playfield and header.

#15 7 years ago

Progress!! Thanks all for the help. I am getting closer...

I yanked the whole bottom assembly out of the machine, put it on the bench to take a good look at it. Sure enough on the game over relay latch coils there was a switch that was not making contact. Put it back in and now all coils have power when I start a game. If I put a ball in, it kicks it out!! Unfortunately the outhole relay stays latched and the outhole coil keeps on kicking and the score motor keeps running. If I manually pull the outhole relay the motor stops running and I can play a game. Well until I drain a ball...

So to recap, outhole coil went from not working to constantly on!

#16 7 years ago

The outhole relay hold circuit power comes from that arrow that is labeled (I think) R-BR from @D3. It is more than likely a score motor switch that should open at end of cycle.

#17 7 years ago

Hi Brypten
great - You made progress.
The "Outhole-Relay-Problem" - I visualize what CactusJack wrote in post-16. We go by "chances" - maybe the fault is in "my blue wiring" - maybe the fault is in "my green wiring***" - but chances are: Fault is in the "red wiring - a Score-Motor-Switch faulty NOT opening".

In post-5, JPG-1 I can see the "Coil on Outhole-Relay" and the arrow and the text "to R-BR @ D-3". THERE You will see the Score-Motor-Switch. Look-up the Number of the Nylon-Wheel --- look in the drawing (schematics) the many Score-Motor-Wheels - INVESTIGATE in that switch. You may have the pin toggled-off and manually turn the Score-Motor to see if that switch TRUELY opens.

Again: Fault may be in "my blue wiring" - fault may be in "my green wiring***" but most likely it is "red wiring, Score-Motor-Switch".

"green wiring***": The "normal way to feed Initial-Current to the coil when You are playing", greetings Rolf

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#18 7 years ago

Progress? Very strange... So after checking the score motor about 10x more times I turned it off and about 20 seconds later I heard a relay click. Prop the playfield and turn it back on and credit the machine. Push the outhole switch and the coil pulls in and doesn't turn off. Turn the game off and relay does not let go. About 20 seconds later it lets go.

I take the screw off the relay, pull it and desolder it. Seems to test ok, 10 ohms across. Put it all back together and start a game. Ball kicks out fine and I can play a game. After the third ball it kicked the ball out but then still kicked the coil a few times. By ball five it was kicking about ten times before stopping.

I once again removed the screw and pulled the coil. Put it all back together again and it has gone four games fully working. Not confident its fixed, not sure why the outhole relay stayed energized after power off previously.

#19 7 years ago

Hi Brypten
You may have "residual magnetism" - an unwanted form of "natural magnetism". If You take a natural magnet and put a piece of metal (armature, anchor plate of a relay) onto the magnet: It will stick - lets say the pulling force is 100. When You have the armature away a TINY bit: Pulling force may be 95. When You have the armature away TWO TINY bits: Pulling force may be 70. When You have the armature away THREE TINY bits: Pulling force may be 20. Means: The function (mathematical) of distance and pulling force is "exponential".

Want to try ?: Sneak-in a piece of paper between the "Coil" and the armature - the armature can not travel FULL way - armature travels a bit less of a distance. Then try the pin. If no luck: Sneak in a second piece of paper ... a third piece ... a fourth piece (we want to use the "exponential function of 'less pulling' "). IF (if) You succeed: Mount "insulation tape" of this thickness onto the armature plate to (always, forever) hinder contact "Coil --- armature".
Write of "Luck - no Luck", write of "other problems (if You have some)", greetings Rolf

#20 7 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Brypten
You may have "residual magnetism" - an unwanted form of "natural magnetism". If You take a natural magnet and put a piece of metal (armature, anchor plate of a relay) onto the magnet: It will stick - lets say the pulling force is 100. When You have the armature away a TINY bit: Pulling force may be 95. When You have the armature away TWO TINY bits: Pulling force may be 70. When You have the armature away THREE TINY bits: Pulling force may be 20. Means: The function (mathematical) of distance and pulling force is "exponential".
Want to try ?: Sneak-in a piece of paper between the "Coil" and the armature - the armature can not travel FULL way - armature travels a bit less of a distance. Then try the pin. If no luck: Sneak in a second piece of paper ... a third piece ... a fourth piece (we want to use the "exponential function of 'less pulling' "). IF (if) You succeed: Mount "insulation tape" of this thickness onto the armature plate to (always, forever) hinder contact "Coil --- armature".
Write of "Luck - no Luck", write of "other problems (if You have some)", greetings Rolf

Definitely was residual magnetism. I'm not sure if the coil was screwed correctly onto the bracket, I cleaned it all up, carefully screwed it all back together and it has been working with no problems now. Pretty crazy that the coil was magnetized holding the relay in!

#21 7 years ago
Quoted from Brypten:

Definitely was residual magnetism. I'm not sure if the coil was screwed correctly onto the bracket, I cleaned it all up, carefully screwed it all back together and it has been working with no problems now. Pretty crazy that the coil was magnetized holding the relay in!

Sounds strange but to remove this type of magnetism, remove the armature, place it flat on the ground, and give it a wack with a hammer. It works, trust me! Of course, another way of testing Rolf theory of the magnetized relay armature would be to simply remove power from the whole game. If the relay remains energized any longer than the lights stay lit on the game (no power applied), it is magnetized. Of course, other forms of mechanical binding can also cause the relay armature to stick in place until outside vibration helps it break free.

As to the outhole kicker coil, even if the relay is stuck closed, the coil should only "kick" for a pulse as the score motor makes a cycle. It should not "Stay energized" the entire time the outhole relay is energized. If this is happening, it would indicate that you have a switch that should normally be open being adjusted so it is always closed regardless of the condition of the score motor cams. According to your photo, it is Score Motor C 4-B.

#22 7 years ago

Seems to be working well now. I had to adjust the pop bumper switches, and clean, but once dialed in this is a really fun game to play. Thanks again for all the help

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