(Topic ID: 251284)

Williams unexpected credit/start behavior

By CaffeineSlug

41 days ago

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  • 13 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 35 days ago by rolf_martin_062
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#1 41 days ago

Setting up Liberty Bell for coin play. Settings are:
25c - 1 credit
10c - zero
5c - zero
2 coins for 3 plays - off

The first quarter both starts a 1-player game *and* adds a credit. The second quarter makes it a 2-player game and again, adds a credit. I would expect that the first quarter would either start a game or add a credit, but not both. Then the second quarter should only add a credit.

From additional testing, if I have it set to 2/3/4/5 credits per quarter, it increments the credit unit but does not start a game.

If I have it set to 6 credits per quarter, it adds 5 credits and starts a game.

I suspected this was related to the coin relay, because the 25c relay will energize it when using the 1 or 6 credit option, but not 2-5. Everything on the relay is making/breaking connection when it should though, wires all attached to switches, etc. It doesn't seem like that's the problem, but I can't rule it out.

I really just want one quarter to add one credit, and I think that's what it should be doing, correct? Where else might I look to solve this?

#7 40 days ago

I'm not sure if this gives any clues, but I also noticed that when configured per my original post, it would start a game and add a credit when the normally-open coin switch was closed. On the other 25c settings (2/3/4/5 credits), When the NO coin switch closes, it just energizes the 25c relay, and then the credits are added when the NC coin switch closes again.

Quoted from fredsmythson:

If you insert a coin and it starts a game, and also adds a credit, then there is something wrong with the options for coin/credit settings, or there is a switch/wiring issue. This era of machine would usually start a game when you inserted a coin ie 1 "play" / 25 cents. It wouldn't also add a credit. You could try to disconnect the 25 cents/1 "credit" option and then see if the machine would start a game by inserting a coin without adding a credit.
As rolf_martin_062 said, the circuitry in the machine wasn't designed to give 1 credit when a 25 cents was inserted. It was designed to start a game when 25 cents was inserted. This eliminated a few step when starting a game ie inserting a coin, having a credit awarded and then pushing the start button. As mentioned, you can always do some rewiring to get the results you want...

I know I've played games where the first coin just started the game, but I didn't know if that was every EM, or just most of them. This is my only Williams of the era. I'm fine with either approach, as long as the end result is one credit per quarter, effectively. When the first coin starts a game, the second coin should still just add a credit, correct? I believe it should not start a 2-player game immediately.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi CaffeineSlug
do You have the manual to Liberty Bell ? I do not have one - ipdb does not have one.

I do, see attached page for the pricing adjustments.

Quoted from fredsmythson:

The machine might be set up for 2 plays/25 cents. When the coin closes the coin switch, it will reset the game (play/credit #1), and then it will add a credit to the credit unit (play/credit #2)...

No, when set for 2 credits per 25 cents, it just increments the credit unit twice. It does not start a game. It was only in the 1 credit or 6 credit position where it would start a game.

Now that I've answered those, I'll say that I've accidentally solved the problem, but I don't understand why. When trying different things tonight, I tried these settings:
25c - 1 credit
10c - 1 credit (was - zero)
5c - zero
2 coins for 3 plays - on (was - off)
This gave me exactly what I wanted! It adds one credit per quarter, and does not start a game. I still can't tell if this makes sense per the schematic though. In particular, I'm surprised it worked when the 2 coin/3 play adjustment was set to on. It kind of feels like I may still have an error or misadjustment somewhere, even though I'm getting the desired result!

#11 36 days ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

See the JPG, on top I let part of "dark-blue wiring" - BUT the Adj-plug is plugged-in at "1" means no / never connection means the 25cent-relay cannot / does not establish Self-Hold-Current means it pulls in (light-blue wiring) and then let go.
Questions: Does in Your pin the 25cent-relay pull-in and just after: Let go ?
Does the motor start to run when the 25cent-relay pulls in ?

When I close the coin switch:
- 25c relay pulls in
- credit unit increments by 1
- knocker fires (and stays on as long as the coin switch is closed)
That's it. The motor never runs.

Thanks for all of the detail in your posts. This is my understanding from what you've posted. Closing the coin switch energizes the 25c relay, as shown in the light blue line. In the pink line at bottom, because I have the adjustment plug in the "on" position, the current goes through the NC score motor switch, the 25c jack set to 1, then the NO switch on the 25c relay which is now closed, adjustment plug, then the credit unit step up energizes for my one credit.

Is that right? If so, then it seems like it's exhibiting correct behavior, and maybe it's just not documented well.

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