(Topic ID: 251284)

Williams unexpected credit/start behavior


By CaffeineSlug

4 days ago



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  • 10 posts
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  • Latest reply 1 day ago by rolf_martin_062
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#1 4 days ago

Setting up Liberty Bell for coin play. Settings are:
25c - 1 credit
10c - zero
5c - zero
2 coins for 3 plays - off

The first quarter both starts a 1-player game *and* adds a credit. The second quarter makes it a 2-player game and again, adds a credit. I would expect that the first quarter would either start a game or add a credit, but not both. Then the second quarter should only add a credit.

From additional testing, if I have it set to 2/3/4/5 credits per quarter, it increments the credit unit but does not start a game.

If I have it set to 6 credits per quarter, it adds 5 credits and starts a game.

I suspected this was related to the coin relay, because the 25c relay will energize it when using the 1 or 6 credit option, but not 2-5. Everything on the relay is making/breaking connection when it should though, wires all attached to switches, etc. It doesn't seem like that's the problem, but I can't rule it out.

I really just want one quarter to add one credit, and I think that's what it should be doing, correct? Where else might I look to solve this?

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#2 3 days ago

Hi CaffeineSlug
Your pin acts normal - this is what I know (maybe there are some pins with the feature "1 coin ADDS one replay to the replay-counter (?)"). My advice: Accept it.
IF (if, if) You really want "one coin adds one replay to the replay-counter": You must do a hack (and a very good documentation).
See the JPG - I drew "one coin adds three replays" - closing the 25Cent-switch let initial current (light-blue wiring) flow to the coil on 25cent-relay --- the relay pulls-in, establish (dark-blue wiring) self-hold-current flowing - the relay stays pulling - AND as the motor turns, after a while the motor-switch-3E cuts the self-hold-current, the relay let go.
As the motor turns: Along green wiring the IMPULSE-Cam-Switch-IMP-A fires five times towards the Replay-Counter-Step-up-Coil --- BUT as (dark-blue) the 25cent-relay is made to quit pulling, opening "encircled-dark-blue" switch named 25cent-relay: ONLY the first three shots of closing IMP-A do reach the coil on the replay-Counter-step-up.
The hack would be "my big red X": Sneaking in some wiring using motor-switch-1E to cut Self-hold-current of the 25cent-relay even earlyer ... do You really want to do such an hack ? Greetings Rolf

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#3 3 days ago

If you insert a coin and it starts a game, and also adds a credit, then there is something wrong with the options for coin/credit settings, or there is a switch/wiring issue. This era of machine would usually start a game when you inserted a coin ie 1 "play" / 25 cents. It wouldn't also add a credit. You could try to disconnect the 25 cents/1 "credit" option and then see if the machine would start a game by inserting a coin without adding a credit.

As rolf_martin_062 said, the circuitry might not be designed to give 1 credit when a 25 cents was inserted. It was designed to start a game when 25 cents was inserted. This eliminated a few step when starting a game ie inserting a coin, having a credit awarded and then pushing the start button. As mentioned, you can always do some rewiring to get the results you want...

#4 3 days ago

Hi CaffeineSlug
do You have the manual to Liberty Bell ? I do not have one - ipdb does not have one. The closest in time (with manual to be looked-up) is the 4-player Big Deal.

Hi fredsmythson
thanks for writing post-3 - You made / make me think-over what I wrote in post-2...
I actually never did fumble on coin-chute settings - when I bought a pin I let the choin-chute wiring as is - and set the pin to "Free-Play" as described in http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm .
A friend of mine has an GOTTLIEB Liberty Belle - there the throwing-in a coin adds up ONE Replay AND starts a game.

CaffeineSlug - here https://www.ipdb.org/files/245/Williams_1977_Big_Deal_Instruction_Manual.pdf on page-4 (ori-2) - on the bottom of the page "IN ON POSITION ..." - I wonder what is written in the manual of Liberty Bell. (((We (means You) can do a hack making "one coin steps the replay-counter by one"))) Greetings Rolf

#5 3 days ago

The machine might be set up for 2 plays/25 cents. When the coin closes the coin switch, it will reset the game (play/credit #1), and then it will add a credit to the credit unit (play/credit #2)...

#6 3 days ago

Although, the Big Deal manual does indicate that a one coin/one credit option is possible. The 1 coin/3 coin option would be set to "on." The 10 cent option would be set to the #2 position, and the 25 cent option would be set to the #6 position. I'm wondering if this would be the same for Liberty Bell ...

#7 3 days ago

I'm not sure if this gives any clues, but I also noticed that when configured per my original post, it would start a game and add a credit when the normally-open coin switch was closed. On the other 25c settings (2/3/4/5 credits), When the NO coin switch closes, it just energizes the 25c relay, and then the credits are added when the NC coin switch closes again.

Quoted from fredsmythson:

If you insert a coin and it starts a game, and also adds a credit, then there is something wrong with the options for coin/credit settings, or there is a switch/wiring issue. This era of machine would usually start a game when you inserted a coin ie 1 "play" / 25 cents. It wouldn't also add a credit. You could try to disconnect the 25 cents/1 "credit" option and then see if the machine would start a game by inserting a coin without adding a credit.
As rolf_martin_062 said, the circuitry in the machine wasn't designed to give 1 credit when a 25 cents was inserted. It was designed to start a game when 25 cents was inserted. This eliminated a few step when starting a game ie inserting a coin, having a credit awarded and then pushing the start button. As mentioned, you can always do some rewiring to get the results you want...

I know I've played games where the first coin just started the game, but I didn't know if that was every EM, or just most of them. This is my only Williams of the era. I'm fine with either approach, as long as the end result is one credit per quarter, effectively. When the first coin starts a game, the second coin should still just add a credit, correct? I believe it should not start a 2-player game immediately.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi CaffeineSlug
do You have the manual to Liberty Bell ? I do not have one - ipdb does not have one.

I do, see attached page for the pricing adjustments.

Quoted from fredsmythson:

The machine might be set up for 2 plays/25 cents. When the coin closes the coin switch, it will reset the game (play/credit #1), and then it will add a credit to the credit unit (play/credit #2)...

No, when set for 2 credits per 25 cents, it just increments the credit unit twice. It does not start a game. It was only in the 1 credit or 6 credit position where it would start a game.

Now that I've answered those, I'll say that I've accidentally solved the problem, but I don't understand why. When trying different things tonight, I tried these settings:
25c - 1 credit
10c - 1 credit (was - zero)
5c - zero
2 coins for 3 plays - on (was - off)
This gave me exactly what I wanted! It adds one credit per quarter, and does not start a game. I still can't tell if this makes sense per the schematic though. In particular, I'm surprised it worked when the 2 coin/3 play adjustment was set to on. It kind of feels like I may still have an error or misadjustment somewhere, even though I'm getting the desired result!

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#8 1 day ago

Hi CaffeineSlug +
I do not mind when a fault "miraculously" dissapears. When posting earlyer posts I had a confusion in my mind - mixing Williams Liberty Bell and Gottlieb Liberty Belle - arcade rooms times long ago, schematics nowadays --- by now I say "most pins have 'ONE coin per game does start a game' - some pins have 'one coin add credit(s) and start a game' - many pins have 'one coin add creditS' (((seldom: A pin allows only throwing-in a coin when the replay-counter is at zero)))".
I do not know if "what You happened to find out" whas intended - but it works, fine.

Look at the JPG - interesting stuff is on the bottom of the JPG - my "rosa / pink" stuff. The somewhat strange Adj-Plug "1 coin - 1 play / 2 coins 3 plays" to me is two features in one Adj-Plug --- I refer to Your description in post-6, made the drawing in the JPG as You have plugged the Adj-Plug.
When throwing-in a coin the pin does not coin-up the replay-counter "top of the JPG, dark-blue wiring" - the pin does "rosa / pink wiring" on the bottom of the JPG.

"Light-blue wiring" The 25cent-relay is made to pull, the pulling relay makes the motor to run, in the very beginning of the turn the Index-Cam-Switchstack is not yet actuated means the interesting part of switch Index-Cam-switch-D (my pink star) is STILL closed - BUT the 25cent-relay is already pulling --- for a short period of time current can flow to the coil on replay-counter-step-up-side - THEN the interesting part of switch Index-Cam-switch-D (my pink star) opens so the replay-counter plunger can be pulled back (giving the ONE step-up) --- the motor turns further - (my orange 5) motor-cam-5-switch-B cuts the self-hold-circuitry of the 25cent-relay - it let go - opens "switch 25 cent RE., pink star" - motor turns further and the interesting part of switch Index-Cam-switch-D (my pink star) closes again --- no problem because "switch 25 cent RE., pink star" is open.

I am german speaking - to me the text "PULSES CREDIT UNIT STEP UP (bottom right corner in the JPG)" reads / implies "at least 2, maybe 3 ore more pulses". Greetings Rolf

0Liberty-Bell-Work-02 (resized).jpg
#9 1 day ago

Hi CaffeineSlug +
(I am doing laundry) wait for a post to come --- part of my post-8 is true - part is not correct --- it is very surprising that You get the 1 coin adds 1 replay ... Greetings Rolf

#10 1 day ago

Hi CaffeineSlug +
(the laundry is done) See the JPG, on top I let part of "dark-blue wiring" - BUT the Adj-plug is plugged-in at "1" means no / never connection means the 25cent-relay cannot / does not establish Self-Hold-Current means it pulls in (light-blue wiring) and then let go.
Questions: Does in Your pin the 25cent-relay pull-in and just after: Let go ?
Does the motor start to run when the 25cent-relay pulls in ?

"Faulty writing in post-8": "... --- the motor turns further - (my orange 5) ... is open."
Greetings Rolf

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