Hi Walt
Don't have that game, if it has a relay bank inside, look it over, they need to be locked in place correctly.

Hi Walt
great - You could fix the other issue --- and I move "residual magnetism" from category "heard of" to "actually encountered" (well, long distance encountered).

ipdb has NO paperwork to Toledo - do You have the paperwork ? I say: To every pin there should be a PAPER schematics and a PAPER manual - stored below the cashbox in the pin.

The rather modern EM-pins have a feature I do not really like - it makes the pin more complicated. The feature is: EVERY new, given ball starts with ONE bonus given to the Bonus-Ladder.
I show stuff from (ipdb) Satin Doll (having this feature) - lets take it as an example in reading schematics. YOU toggle-off the pin and YOU manually put some Bonus on the Bonus-Counter (mounted most-likely on the underneath-side of the playfield) - YOU manually TRIP the Game-Over-Relay - YOU toggle-on and start a new game

The Coin-Relay (better name would be: Start-Relay) does actuate - JPG, red-1 therefore is closed, through "2" (tripped G.O.-Relay) the RESET-RELAY ("3") is activated - establishes Self-Hold-Current ("4") and the closed switches "5a" and "5b" ((("5a" is the stuff with the Score-Drums resetting - I do NOT write about this stuff))).

Yes, "5b" IS closed because "Bonus-Relay, '9' " is activated (through "7", "8") and "9" has established Self-Hold-Current "10" - keeps pulling because "Bonus-Unit, "11" is not yet at Zero - means: "11 is closed". The pulling Bonus-Relay and the turning Score-Motor PULSING make ("12, 13, 14") the "15" step DOWN (... 5 bonus, 4 bonus, 3 bonus, 2 bonus, 1 bonus then Zero Bonus).

Through "16" and Bonus-Unit reaching Zero: "17" closes and makes the Outhole-Relay ("18") pull - it establishes Self-Hold-Current ("19") - throws a switch "20" and through "21" the ball is kicked "22" over to the shooter alley. Shortly after (turning Score-Motor) the "23", "24" makes the (not loved) "stepping '25', the Bonus-Ladder UP to 'one Bonus is given' ".

The "26" and "27" are for: You have lost a played ball --- the Bonus-Ladder stepping-down shall be started.

Walt look in Your pin - what is done of the stuff mentioned above - I am interested in Reset-Relay pulling-in AND let-go, the stepping of the Bonus-Ladder , Bonus-Relay pull-in and let-go - Outhole-Relay, Ball-Release (Kicker), Score-Motor --- write about, greetings Rolf.

0Satin-Doll-Work-01 (resized).jpg

Enter, the amazing Rolf!

I have 3 Williams EMs. All of them have the Game Over relay in the cabinet, not the head. I would assume yours would be the same.

Hi Walt
Yes, in Williams pins the Game-Over-Relay is of type "Interlock-Relay" - TWO Coils. So the relay behind the transformer is the G.O.-Relay. Look here (Bally) http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/1677/Bally_1976_Night_Rider_Manual.pdf , page-16 (((my mnemonic aid: The word TRIP (-Coil) has 4 letters, the word LATCH (-Coil) has 5 letters, four is less than five - so the TRIP-armature has LESS stuff mounted on the (Trip) armature - LESS then the LATCH-armature --- LESS the Nylon-Ladder))).

Toggle-off the pin, put some bonus on the Bonus-Ladder (step somewhere in-between the two end-positions), move the TRIP-armature. Toggle-on, start a game and see how shortly after starting: The G.O.-Relay LATCHES, greetings Rolf

Hi Walt
before we look at a two-player-game: I want the ONE-player-game running. Williams pins do TRIP the Game-Over-Relay "when we toggle-on the 110VAC power switch". When there is a fault in this: We can do a (temporary) work-around --- EVERYTIME we want to start a new game: Before we start the new game: We manually TRIP the Game-Over-Relay - THEN start a new game.

When we have a problem with starting a game by pressing the Replay-Button: We can try the "work-around": We manually activate (press / push the armature / anchor-plate of) the COIN-RELAY*** in the cabinet.

Do it again - toggle-off the pin, put some bonus on the Bonus-Ladder (step somewhere in-between the two end-positions), move (!!!) the TRIP-armature OF THE GAME-OVER-RELAY. Toggle-on, start a game and see how shortly after starting: The G.O.-Relay LATCHES - question: DOES the Reset-Relay pull-in ?

Manually activating the Coin-Relay*** - Look at the JPG, post-3: You manually CLOSE "my red '1' " --- and because You manually have TRIPPED the Game-Over-Relay: "my red '2' " is closed --- the Reset-Relay (my red 3) should pull-in etc.

I believe "Score-Reel does run forever" is another fault - WHICH SCORE-Reel ? (10-points or 100 points or 1000 points ?) - where You hitting some target worth a multiple (30 or 50 or 300 or 500 or ?) ?

Lets stick to: (Try to) start a ONE-Player-Game and play till Game-Over, greetings Rolf

Hi Walt
in post-5 You wrote "(would like to) have it running in some way by the weekend" --- THIS is our goal. For to work and REALLY fix: We must have the schematics - and it wold be easyer also having the manual.

In post-6 You write: "MUST also manually activate the Reset-Relay". In post-6 You write "Once a One-Player-Game is started: It plays." - Important question: Can You play through the balls and REACH "Game-Over" ? Means: Do You see the light "Game-Over" in the Backbox / does the Game-Over-Relay TRIP at loss of the last ball (third or fifth ball) played ?

IF (if) "YES, the game ends with / in GAME-OVER": We can do a temporary "work-around" using two Jumper-Wires for a "more comfortable start of a new game".

IF (if) "NO, the game ends not in Game-Over - the Game-Over-Relay does NOT trip (after last ball is played)": Please try (and report what happens): TRY manually activating the Reset-Relay - but the Game-Over-Relay is latched. I cannot say if Your pin does start / reset (schematics is missing) --- try and report (((If no luck: We must do the (first) work-around for the activating the Reset-Relay - and (as no luck) we must do a second work-around to TRIP the Game-Over-Relay at end of a game))).

(((A preview - The "work-around(s)" is / are / will be --- for each function we must have a work-around: TWO Jumper-Wires come ot of the pin - they come out through the open Coin-Door. When functionality is needed: You manually connect the two Jumper-Wires))), greetings Rolf

Hi Walt
nice - the pin plays through the balls and reaches Game-Over (Game-Over-Relay TRIPS).
Look at thy JPG - the 6VAC and the 24VAC on my old Shangri La - transformer.
"A" is Power-6VAC. "B" is returning-line for both - for 6VAC and for 24VAC - TWO YELLOW wires. "C" is 24VAC "Normal- respectively Low-Tap Power". "D" is 24VAC "High-Tap Power".

TOGGLE-OFF THE PIN and UNPLUG the 110VAC power cord (Safety reasons).
In Your pin You should have a wire-of-some-color at "A". You should have "TWO wires Yellow" at "B". Either "C" or "D" has wire-of-some-color --- and this "C/D"-wire-of-some-color RUNS to Fuse-Holder-24-VAC-fuse (15 amps or maybe 10 amps).

IF (!!!) You do NOT see the two wires Yellow at "B": DO NOT PROCEED !!!
(pin is toggled-off) See (?) in Your pin at "Coil on Reset-Relay" one side has TWO wires "BLACK" - and the other side of the coil has ONE wire "other color". Clip-on a Jumper-wire at Lug "other color !!!" and take the other end of the Jumper-Wire around relays / stepper-units through the open coin-door into the open - let the free gator clip hang loose (coming out through the open coin-door) - NOT touching anything.

(pin is toggled-off) Take another Jumper-Wire, clip-on at "transformer-lug-Yellow (two yellow wires are soldered-on). Take the other end of the Jumper-Wire ... through the open coin-door into the open - hanging loose - NOT touching anything,

OK - every time You want to start a new game: Grab the Jumper-Wires at the insulated wire and touch the two gator-clips (make connection) - the Reset-Relay should pull-in and start a new game. ARE we lucky and this procedure DOES start a new game ? Please report.

IF (if) "No - no luck" we will investigate in the coil on Reset-Relay.
I hope for "luck" - You can (+/- comfortable) start a ONE-Player-Game. NEXT thing to look-at: Starting a TWO-Player-Game, greetings Rolf

1232-Shangri-La-transformer (resized).jpg

Hi Walt
fine - most of the time You can play ONE-Player-Games having the playfield down, game after game.
The Satin Doll has "2nd Coin Relay" (probably in the cabinet ?) - as the Game-Over-Relay it is an Interlock-Type relay - having TWO coils mounted.
Look in Your pin for such a relay --- maybe (maybe) You have an ordinary relay with only ONE coil (?). Anyway - start a ONE-Player-Game - pin resets and kicks the ball over to the shooter alley - DO NOT LAUNCH THE BALL. Now do ACTUATE the "2nd Coin Relay" - question: Does the Backbox shows "Two can play" and You can play a TWO-Player-Game ? Maybe (maybe) the Backbox-Light is dead - but You can play a TWO-Player-Game ?

Maybe we are lucky. If not: We must wait for the schematics to come.

Problem "when starting a new (One-Player) Game - the Ball-Count-Unit does NOT step (down) to 'Position-Zero means Ball-1' ": Maybe (maybe) the unit is gummed and need to be cleaned (?)
An "quick and let it be dirty" trick might help: Look at the JPG - the Replay-Unit of my Shangri La. ONLY look at the GREEN curved lines - the spring wound around the axis.
May want to unhook (on Your Ball-Count-Unit) the "up-going green side" and TIGHTEN the spring by winding (tighter) one turn - then hook-on again --- question: Are we lucky and the reset (ball-5 to ball-1) works ?

In Switzerland it is thirty minutes to midnight - within half an hour I will go to sleep. My next post will come after 8 to 10 hours, greetings Rolf

2208-Replay-Unit-Work (resized).jpg

Hi Walt
great - You can also play a Two-Player-Game.

I hope for luck so You can start the TWO-Player-Game "much the same as You start the ONE-Player-Game". Take one more Jumper-Wire and clip on at "Lug on Coil*** on 2nd. Coin-Relay" and take the other end through the open Coin-Door into the open - hanging loose - NOT touching anything.
You have WTY (wire coming from Transformer-lug-Yellow) - You have WRR (wire coming from Coil on Reset-Relay) and You have W2C (wire coming from Coil on 2nd-Coin-Relay).

To start a new One-Player-Game: You make a connection WRR to WTY. The pin resets and finally kicks the ball over to the shooter alley - NOW You make connection W2C to WTY - I hope for luck means hope that the pin does start for second player.

Coil***: The coil has one lug with two wires BLACK - USE the OTHER lug on the coil. The relay has two coils mounted - Try one coil - if no luck: Try the other coil.

The confusion "post-16 shows a Replay-Counter": ALL steppers THAT have TWO coils mounted do sometimes reset - the force / power for stepping one step back / down: Force / power comes from this spring wound around the axis. IF we tighten this spring (wind one more turn of 360 degrees): The stepping BACK / DOWN (maybe) does better work.

Your Ball-Count-Unit sometimes does not step BACK / DOWN when starting a game - You may try to thighten the spring by "one turn more" - maybe You are lucky (?).

The Ball-Count-Unit usually is in the cabinet. TO FIND the Unit: Play a ONE-Player-game --- look all over when the pin steps from Ball-1 to Ball-2 (as You loose a ball) SEE a STEPPER-UNIT do one STEP --- THIS Stepper-Unit is the Ball-Count-Unit.

In the JPG I show numbers - starting a ONE-Player-Game: "Red-1, -2, -3, -4 etc. takes place"
AND ALSO "1, 31, 32, (maybe 33, 34), Reset-Relay (red-3) IS PULLING - so 35 IS MOVED - the 36, 37, 38 happens.

OK - pin is ready for a ONE-Player-Game - You start for the second player: 1 is closed (2 IS OPEN means No resetting) - but 1, 31, 32 (maybe 33, 34) happens - Reset-Relay (red-3) is NOT pulling so 35 is as shown in the JPG --- ONLY the 39 is activated (Not: 36, 37, 38). Greetings Rolf

0Satin-Doll-Work-02 (resized).jpg

Hi Walt
in Switzerland most of the pins are 4-Player-Pins - I have never seen the inside of a 2-Player-Pin --- great You have found the Ball-Count-Unit. When it is greasy / sticky / gummed up: Want to think about "take apart and clean it" ? It depends on condition / state of the unit - "tightening the spring" is maybe a "bit rude".

"The 100 / 1000 Score-Drums sometimes keep running on" --- Your "San Francisco" pin had the problem of residual magnetism. There I said: "Hold the tip of a screwdriver at the Self-Hold-Switch on the 10 / 100 / 1000 point-relay and see the reaction".

A faulty always closed Self-Hold-Switch on a ... points-relay makes the Score-Drum "machine-gunning" while a fault with 50-point- / 500-point- / 5000-point-relay makes the Score-Drum "rather slow, nice looking and sounding stepping - much slower stepping".
So what kind of reaction (machine-gunning or much slower endlessly stepping) do You have ?
(((I cannot think of something causing the fault SPECIFICALLY on player-1 / player-2)))

You now have the pin "can play it" with the Jumper-Wires to start ONE-Player-Game (Reset-Relay) and / or to start a TWO-Player-Game (2nd-Coin-Relay). When You get the schematics and the manual I then would like to use Jumper-Wires to locate the problem of "not starting".
Lets look in http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1767 - Pat Hand is the 4-Player-Version of Satin Doll --- ipdb has schematics and manual. Look in the schematics at 3/4/5/6 C/D/E You will see the stuff I have shown on Satin Doll.

At schematics 3-D You see the "Credit-Replay-Button" and the wiring to make the Credit-Relay actuate. At 3-E You see "Switch on Game-Over-Relay" and You see the color of the wires.
Now look in the ipdb-manual at page-28 (ori-26) - Game-Over-Relay - SEE (?) SWITCH-B is the "Switch on Game-Over-Relay to look at" when we have problems with starting a new game by pressing the Credit-Replay-Button. I prefer to have the schematics and manual of Toledo - and we look-up the stuff. Greetings Rolf

Clean the wiper unit of the players and check if it moves freely back to reset position.
Most of the time the unit is dirty giving this odd behaviour.

Hi Walt
for the problems "electrical wiring" I would like to wait for the schematics (actual wiring and colors of wires) - and (hopefully) manual (for position of switches in the switchstacks).

"Hung-up on any ball when starting new game": On this problem You can work - most-likely a mechanical problem. Have the playfield-glass removed and the playfield down. Start a ONE-Player-Game and the pin gives Ball-1. Manually make some points, then stand to the top of the playfield and look into the Backbox --- let the ball roll down the playfield and WATCH the "Stepper in question" - the ball enters the Outhole - the pin changes to next ball - question: Does the "Stepper in question" STEPS --- TWO steps ? (I believe to read in Satin doll schematics that the unit does step TWO steps). You MUST find the Ball-Count-Unit (the FOUR-Player-Pins I know have the Ball-Count-Unit in the Cabinet --- I do NOT know about TWO-Player-Pins).

You have seen the stepping-UP of the Ball-Count-Unit - so do manually step-up the unit TWO steps - see how the Backglass shows the next number for "Ball in Play" ?
Toggle-Off the pin, manually activate the OTHER Coil / PLUNGER --- the Unit should (wroamm, bang) make a HUGE step - ALL the way DOWN - investigate on this mechanical movement - I am 99% sure You have a mechanical problem, greetings Rolf