Williams system 9 speech

Just picked up a Comet yesterday. Never played one before but seems to play very well. However after getting it home noticed it is missing speech and some sound effects. But other sounds are fine. I have no manual or schematics yet. I don't even know much about testing or getting codes from the pin yet, my first system 9.

After some looking and listening to the machine the effects are there but extremely quiet. I do know there are 2 volume knobs. One on the speech board and the main cabinet. The knob on the speech board doesn't seem to change any volume, will need to do some more poking.

That being said my limited knowledge of troubleshooting electronics points me to the amp circuit? Maybe the entire speech board? I can solder reasonabley well. Have a DMM but no logic probe.

Also all the ROMs are rev1 would it be worth it to get new ones?

Thanks
Tim

#2 3 years ago

STA

sta98

Inactive member

I've got a Space Shuttle System 9 with a similar problem. Low sounds and no speech. I know the volume control on the speech board is the mix between system sounds and speech. You should be able to google search and find the manual. I was just reading a thread here with the schematic for the speech board for the comet. I know when I unplug my speech board and jumper pins 3 & 4 the volume for the system sounds are pretty loud so I know it's something on the speech board. Anyone have a link to a thread on diagnosing the speech boards for us?

Good Luck Tim!

#3 3 years ago

TLR

Mibagent_x

Pinside member

So, busy day didn't get much troubleshooting done. I did however play more with the pot on the speech board. I did get some change. Still speech is extremely quiet. Pressing the sound diagnostic switch on the mpu plays sounds like I think it should however no change to speech volume.

My next step will be cleaning the connections between mpu and speech boards and maybe reflowing of they look bad. And then cleaning and reseating the ROMs on the speech board. If no change from there I guess replace the op amps on the speech board.

I found a site yesterday that sells new reworked speech boards and ROMs for around $60 might have to find them again and see if anyone has bought from them.

#4 3 years ago

TLR

Mibagent_x

Pinside member

sta98 I am replacing both op amps on the speech boards. Looking at the schematics looks like that should fix both of our problems. So long as your pot is operating.

#5 3 years ago

STA

sta98

Inactive member

Where are you ordering from?

#6 3 years ago

TLR

Mibagent_x

Pinside member

https://www.marcospecialties.com/control/keywordsearch?SEARCH_STRING=LM1458

Also got some sockets as well.

#7 3 years ago

TLR

Mibagent_x

Pinside member

So socketed and replaced the op amps with no change. I am starting to check the resistors. So far R14 doesn't make the values of R1-3. Mind you I don't know what the values are supposed to be but it is half of what the others are. So I may be going to my local electronics store and gets some resistors and probably caps while I am at it.

#8 3 years ago

STA

sta98

Inactive member

Looks like R13 on the speech board should be a 2.7K.

s1 (resized).jpg

s2 (resized).jpg

#9 3 years ago

STA

sta98

Inactive member

Sorry, R14 should be a 10k.

#10 3 years ago

ETC

MeEtc

Inactive member

Halifax, NS

8y 17,800 59 5

Seems I have very similar or the same problem. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-speech-board-extremely-low-volume

FYI, schematics can be found here: http://blackknightpinball.co.uk/wp/circuit-board-diagrams/speech-modules
There's 2 different versions, check what chip is in U1.

Edit: found this from ThisOldPinball/Marvin3m archive:

Faint Speech from Type2 Sound Boards.
A reader reported, "While testing the sound/speech board for my Blackout, I hear all the sounds perfectly. Also all the speech is there, but is very faint, almost impossible to hear. Turning the pot on the speech board only varies the volume of the sound effects, not speech volume. Is there some sort of mixer on the speech board that could be bad?" The answer was a bad 1458 sound amplifier at U3 on the sound board.

But I don't see a 1458 on the sound portion of the sys9 driver board, just the two on the speech board.

#11 3 years ago

TLR

Mibagent_x

Pinside member

Attached is a picture of U1.

So R14, R16, and R15 were out of spec. And the only electrolytic cap is C12.

I guess I have my shopping list unless someone thinks there is something else I should get.

IMG_20200501_200856 (resized).jpg

#12 3 years ago

ETC

MeEtc

Inactive member

Halifax, NS

8y 17,800 59 5

R14 and R16 are both 10k, but will measure incorrectly in circuit because they connect back to each other through the pot. If they measure near 6k on the board, they are likely fine. Only way to know for sure is to unsolder a leg.

R15 is 27k, and should measure correctly on the board.

#13 3 years ago

TLR

Mibagent_x

Pinside member

R14 & R16 both read 5.9K. R15 is only reading 15K.

#14 3 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

Resistors measured in circuit almost never measure the resistance of the part correctly as mentioned above. A resistor is the very last part to suspect.
—
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
Http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com/ - The new place for pinball repair info

#15 3 years ago

TLR

Mibagent_x

Pinside member

So assuming I didn't bork the sockets and the op amps I just bought are not faulty. Where next? C12 is the only electrolidic.

#16 3 years ago

^^^

PINTEC

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from Mibagent_x:
So socketed and replaced the op amps with no change. I am starting to check the resistors. So far R14 doesn't make the values of R1-3. Mind you I don't know what the values are supposed to be but it is half of what the others are. So I may be going to my local electronics store and gets some resistors and probably caps while I am at it.

Bypass the speech board by adding a jumper at W10 check for sounds to return to loud.
if not suspect amplifier failure

#17 3 years ago

TLR

Mibagent_x

Pinside member

Quoted from PINTEC:
Bypass the speech board by adding a jumper at W10 check for sounds to return to loud.
if not suspect amplifier failure

CPU sounds are normal volume. Seems to me like speech is not getting amplified and or mixed correctly.

#18 3 years ago

MAR

MarAlb

Pinside member

Zeist

9y 53,650 814 19

Did you replace C1, 1uF Tantalum?

#19 3 years ago

TLR

Mibagent_x

Pinside member

Only thing replaced so far are U2 & U3.

#20 3 years ago

^^^

PINTEC

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from Mibagent_x:
CPU sounds are normal volume. Seems to me like speech is not getting amplified and or mixed correctly.

Amp and cpu sound section ok:
Suspect a faulty ribbon cable.

#21 3 years ago

???

grumppy

Pinside member

Minneapolis, MN

5y 16,650 122

Any chance the POT is bad or dirty? Does the value change when you turn it?

#22 3 years ago

ETC

MeEtc

Inactive member

Halifax, NS

8y 17,800 59 5

Replacing U3 fixed mine.

#23 3 years ago

TLR

Mibagent_x

Pinside member

grumppy Pot does change volume of sounds. I read values from 0 to 3.6K the pot should be 5k but don't know how accurate my DMM is.

Is C4 and the leg from the pot supposed to be like that.
Also one end of C12 looks to me like it has leaked?

15884597929192224390624476647409 (resized).jpg

15884598597477783135792684868268 (resized).jpg

#24 3 years ago

???

grumppy

Pinside member

Minneapolis, MN

5y 16,650 122

Sounds like the POT Should be working. Do you have the -12 volts to the board, at the op amps? Also have you looked at the end of the plugs to see if they are good. A bad connector inside the plug would give you problems.

#25 3 years ago

TLR

Mibagent_x

Pinside member

I haven't check voltages yet. The power supply board has been recapped at some point. Looks pretty new to me. The solder joints on the speech board look un cracked. The female plug of the ribbon is shiny on the contacts and the mpu pins are shiny as well. I am planning on pulling the mpu tomorrow and check board to board with my DMM and voltages after that. Will report back.
Local electronic component shop in town is in a mall and shuddered ATM. Any parts will need to be ordered.

#26 3 years ago

TLR

Mibagent_x

Pinside member

Starting to do some testing. Both U2 & 3 are getting 19.5v. Should it be that high?

#27 3 years ago

STA

sta98

Inactive member

I recently got a logic probe and was testing around on U2 & U3. I know I seen somewhere on Pinside what to look for when using the probe. Anyone know the hi and lo states for these chips? I remember you need to be in sound diagnostic mode when testing them.

#28 3 years ago

TLR

Mibagent_x

Pinside member

Ok. Checked continuity between speech and mpu. Connection seems fine. However I think may have found something, not sure yet I am sure you good people will tell me.

On the speech board everything is isolated that I think should be. On the MPU it doesn't seem to be the case.

So MPU out of the machine and connected to nothing I get "ticks" between grounds and +5 both analog and digital. Ticks being a very short beep. Lift leads and touch very short beep.

My elementary understanding of electronics seems to tell me something is shorting out? Or am I chasing a goose and my problem is elsewhere?

#29 3 years ago

AMS

barakandl

OP
Quoted from Mibagent_x:
Ok. Checked continuity between speech and mpu. Connection seems fine. However I think may have found something, not sure yet I am sure you good people will tell me.
On the speech board everything is isolated that I think should be. On the MPU it doesn't seem to be the case.
So MPU out of the machine and connected to nothing I get "ticks" between grounds and +5 both analog and digital. Ticks being a very short beep. Lift leads and touch very short beep.
My elementary understanding of electronics seems to tell me something is shorting out? Or am I chasing a goose and my problem is elsewhere?

when i have a board connected to the bench power supply i get the same effect. A DMM on continuity beep test chirps briefly when i go across 5v and gnd. Normal and probably related to capacitors.

I am surprised it wasn't the op amp. I once managed to kill the speech codec chip by desoldering a working one and then moving it to a board with that chip missing. In the process of moving it speech all became so quiet you could hardly hear it. I figured ESD zapped it.

Verify the POT works on the speech card. You can measure resistance as you adjust the pot. Keep in mind this pot only changes the volume level of speech as compared to sound effects. Then the cabinet pot adjusts overall volume. That has confused people in the past when they needed to up volume on the cabinet adjustment then dial in the speech level.

#30 3 years ago

???

grumppy

Pinside member

Minneapolis, MN

5y 16,650 122

OP
Quoted from Mibagent_x:
Starting to do some testing. Both U2 & 3 are getting 19.5v. Should it be that high?

The only voltages coming to the speech board are +5 and Neg 12 volts. Pin 4 is the -12v pin 8 is 5v.

pasted_image (resized).png

#31 3 years ago

TLR

Mibagent_x

Pinside member

Quoted from grumppy:
The only voltages coming to the speech board are +5 and Neg 12 volts. Pin 4 is the -12v pin 8 is 5v.
[quoted image][quoted image]

I guess I measured wrong. I thought pin 4 was Ground.

#32 3 years ago

^^^

PINTEC

Pinside member

Check speech clock and speech data signals are present which come from the PIA U13 on the cpu to U1 on the speech card does the faint speech sound good?
there isn't much left except PIA U13 and U1 very rare the 5k pot is not functioning.
also double check replaced socket pins on op amps for shorted neighboring pins.

sound (resized).png

#33 3 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

If you want to mule that board pair up to me in St Louis, I can take care of it.
Happy to help.
—
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
Http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com/ - The new place for pinball repair info

#34 3 years ago

TLR

Mibagent_x

Pinside member

http://pinballpcb.com/products/replacement-system-6-7-9-speech-board/

Ok. recapping for everyone and myself. Socketed U2 & 3 with new op amps no changes in sound. Checked for bridged legs on new sockets, none found. Pin 4 & 8 are getting the correct voltages. The 40 pin ribbon has continuity from PCB to PCB, all contacts seem very clean, and no cracks in solder on either connector. The mixer pot does function, the range is however short of 5K. The speech ROMs have been cleaned and reseated. Testing the power rails from the supply board with no load yields +5 is just under +6v and both +/-12 is right at 15v. The sound produced by the speech board sound clear to me, no extra static or garbles, just very quiet. See youtube video.

Have not replaced anything else. ATM only local electronics component supplier is shuddered due to being in a mall. The next step would to replace the caps on the speech board but there is only one electrolytic cap my understanding is that the others rarely fail. The MPU has had some large ceramic resisters burn up at some point if that matters any.

I would like to get the latest speech ROMs. I do not have the means to burn my own. So a set of new ROMs shipped is looking like around $25. So for around $45 more I could get a new speech board. If my problem lies on the speech board that would kill 2 birds with one board. LOL so has anyone purchased from pinballpvb?

#35 3 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

My money is on the Harris chip on the speech board. It's a 55516 or 55536.
My guess is that it has failed.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#36 3 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

Did you replace C1 and/or C12? Both of them are in series of the speech signal.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#37 3 years ago

TLR

Mibagent_x

Pinside member

Quoted from ChrisHibler:
Did you replace C1 and/or C12? Both of them are in series of the speech signal.

I have not. I am thinking about getting 2 new op amps because they are cheap and then those 2 caps. If you think the Harris is toast hopefully I can get at the same place. But the signal is being produced could the chip still be dead?

#38 3 years ago

TLR

Mibagent_x

Pinside member

Numbers on the chip do not match what comes up at Marco's when I lookup the part number in the comet manual. And it's $16.

IMG_20200504_170607 (resized).jpg

#39 3 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

The parts have different substitutes. The Marco chip will work fine.
But...I'd be very careful removing the existing chip. You don't want to damage the rare chip, just in case it's still good.
Yes. I've seen them fail in just the way you describe.
Yes. They are pricey as they are long obsolete.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#40 3 years ago

AMS

barakandl

https://www.rocelec.com/part/harharhc1-55564-5

FYI Rochester Electronics has 6500pcs of the compatible 55564 speech codec chip in stock @ bout $8 each. I bought 100pcs for my doomsday stash.

#41 3 years ago

GPE

G-P-E

GPE

Omaha, NE

13y 76,800 2,778 4

Damn Harris parts!

You'd think that after working for Harris for 30 years, that I would have had this schtuff memorized.
OK - there's 55536 and 55564.
Were those the only two CVSD's used in these things?

#42 3 years ago

GPE

G-P-E

GPE

Omaha, NE

13y 76,800 2,778 4

Quoted from G-P-E:
Damn Harris parts!

You'd think that after working for Harris for 30 years, that I would have had this schtuff memorized.
OK - there's 55536 and 55564.
Were those the only two CVSD's used in these things?

Can't edit posts today...
Seems to me there was also a 55516 and a 55532.
Since my Harris databooks are about 20 miles away - anybody know the differences, which ones are usable and where?

#43 3 years ago

AMS

barakandl

55516, 55532 and 55564 all seem to be cross compatible in wms speech daughter boards. I've used all three and could not hear any difference.

WMS was using 55516 in system 6 and 7 era but that system 9 era made one in this thread and looks like an original from the factory 55564.

#44 3 years ago

GPE

G-P-E

GPE

Omaha, NE

13y 76,800 2,778 4

OK -- got this stuff from my old Harris Communications data books.
HC-55516 (~1975) -- encoder and decoder, optimized for 16kbps rate (replaced by 55532)
HC-55532 (~1977) -- encoder and decoder, optimized for 32kbps rate (replaced by 55564)
HC-55564 (~1986) -- encoder and decoder, optimized for 64kbps rate (replaced by nothing)
All of these were intended for voice and not music so they all have a pretty bad bandwidth.

Few extra digits added "x" and "y"
HCx-55564-y

x = package
1 = ceramic DIP package
3 = plastic DIP package
9 = SOIC (surface mount) package

y = temperature range
2 = -55 to 125C
5 = 0 to 75C
9 = -40 to 85C

And for those that are interested in the prefix.
HA = Harris Analog
HC = Harris Communications
HD = Harris Digital
HM = Harris Memory
HI = Harris Interface

Part shown in photo above is HC1-55564-5 from the 19th week of 1985
Harris Communications, Ceramic DIP package, device type 55564, temperature rating 0 to 75C

#45 3 years ago

^^^

PINTEC

Pinside member

Busy IC

block diagram (resized).png

pinout (resized).png

#46 3 years ago

AMS

barakandl

FZ pin 13 should be pulled always high by 10k resistor R4. Should read +5v always when game is turned on. Not sure what happens when it floats but worth checking.

Could measure the sample rate and see which flavor of 55516/55532/55564 would be best. To my ear I couldn't tell a difference but I guess i never tried them back to back listening carefully. The speech quality is poor enough probably does not matter which one. Does not seem like WMS cared very much. The speech card did not change from one stuffed with 55516 vs 55564 besides adding jumpers for easy 2732 ROMs which irrelevant. The schematic still shows 55516 in system 9 sorcerer.

#47 3 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

The one on the speech board pictured here should last through the rapture... -40 to 85 C. Wow.
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/images/5/57/WilliamsType2SoundAndSpeechBoarfPair.jpg
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#48 3 years ago

TLR

Mibagent_x

Pinside member

So I don't spend a fortune on parts I may or may not need. I ordered a new speech board with newest ROMs from pinballpcb. Arrived today. She speaks again!!! I plan on keeping board and get caps locally when Gateway electronics opens back up and go from there.

2 months later

#49 3 years ago

TLR

Mibagent_x

Pinside member