Laser Cue
Williams, 1984That blob on that cap is not going to cause the problem.
Quoted from The_Great_Man:When I just checked that capacitor with my DMM - I did not get a reading. Any thoughts on that screw up/
[quoted image]
How exactly are you testing that cap with a DMM? What are you expecting to see to confirm it is good?
Thanks FatPanda. My friend at WPI said the same thing - solder will not affect capacitor. Appreciate any help. Thinking of bringing PSB and CPU to a person in the area who has all the equipment and experience and say - Spend $100 and do the best you can. If it is not fixed - I will just keep plugging along. Maybe replace the 6808 chip.
How checking capacitors with DMM. Putting one probe on positive lead of capacitor and other lead on negative lead of capacitor with ohms setting and seeing if the DMM moves from the OL reading to a consistent number. I think this just tells if the capacitor is working but not its capacitance....My DMM does not have capacitance setting. Unfortunately I am finding that sometimes the OL stays on with a good capacitor.
You can not check capacitors with DMM. To test capacitors, you need a special tool that I can not remember the name of.
Continuing in the fashion you have will result in the complete destruction of this otherwise (previously) repairable board.
You obviously have zero electronics knowledge and attempting to learn on this complex board is simply never going to end well.
It's now too late to send the board out for repair because I doubt any technician would want to spend hours of their time undoing the mess.
Please do yourself a favor and read up/study up on basic electronics so you have at least a basic understanding of what you are doing for the future.
You can downvote me all you like - the truth can be seen simply by reading this entire thread, and it's painful to read!
Quoted from Brewchap:You can not check capacitors with DMM. To test capacitors, you need a special tool that I can not remember the name of.
ESR meter (Effective Series Resistance) but they really only work well on electro caps up to about 500uf
This is a better repair guide:
https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_3_-_7
Quoted from metallik:This is a better repair guide:
https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_3_-_7
I agree. I think the Pinwiki guide is better. Got someone coming over tomorrow to take a look. Got to be something simple - bad solder joint, bad connector - that I am missing. I had the game too close to working for it to be something real bad.
Quoted from pins4u:Continuing in the fashion you have will result in the complete destruction of this otherwise (previously) repairable board.
You obviously have zero electronics knowledge and attempting to learn on this complex board is simply never going to end well.
It's now too late to send the board out for repair because I doubt any technician would want to spend hours of their time undoing the mess.
Please do yourself a favor and read up/study up on basic electronics so you have at least a basic understanding of what you are doing for the future.
You can downvote me all you like - the truth can be seen simply by reading this entire thread, and it's painful to read!
I do not downvote anyone. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I prefer to spend my life learning being positive and commending people for taking on challenges. Sometimes failure is not necessarily a bad thing. Someday you might learn to live with these traits....For now I feel sorry for you.
Quoted from FatPanda:Kind of following along, but kind of not, but to answer this question, no, the blob of solder you spilled should not cause any issues. Since you can see it, you can still scrape it off. I'll have to read through your earlier posts, and I'm by no means any pro, but I brought a pretty far off Laser Cue back to life as well (with help from the fine folks here), and if I can do it, I'm sure anyone can.
FatPanda: Just read through your forum from a couple years ago when you were going through the same stuff I am with a Laser Cue. Made me smile...Even though you might have been in tears during some of it. I will keep pushing onward...Sounds like my one month of this could turn into several months.
As I look at the Driver Board and CPU Board I noticed these solder connections that look suspect and I am wondering if these could be causing some or all of the problems. The first picture (Top) is the soldering under the pins for 2J8 on the CPU Board - Logic Power Bus Input. The second picture is under the socket for the 5101 IC19 on the CPU Board. The 3rd picture is the soldering under the pins for 1J2 on the Driver Board - Logic Power Bus Input. I must say I am not sure what the Logic Power Bus does but it sure is near the Reset/Blanking area of the CPU Board.
IMG_3965 (resized).jpgIMG_3966 (resized).jpgIMG_3967 (resized).jpgActually the pictures came out different. The Top picture is the soldering on the 2J8 pins of the Driver Board. And the Bottom picture is the soldering on the pins of 1J2 on the CPU Board.
Just an observation but you seem to be jumping about all over the place in your attempts to fix your machine.
If you receive the machine as a non-worker in unknown condition then you have to be thorough, logical and systematic in your approach.
Use the Pinwiki as has been suggested.
Start off by ensuring power supply board is putting out correct voltages.
I personally replace 40 pin male and female interconnectors, new ROMs and sockets and also re-pin switch row and column connectors on CPU/driver boards.
Then get a test chip and go from there.
Everyone is willing to help but rarely will anyone be able to diagnose the issue in one sentence
Forget the blanking circuit components to begin with. The blanking issue is probably from other problems with the boards rather than blanking circuit component problems. Been there done that
Again, start with power supply.
If it’s work that was done before you started working on the board, that isn’t the cause of the problem. Something you did is causing the board not to boot now.
Thanks Schwaggs - I think you are right. That is why I am wondering if that ugly re-solder work that I did on those connectors could cause the game to lock up. Or could I have received a bad NVRAM and could that cause the board to lock up,
Quoted from Andy_B:Just an observation but you seem to be jumping about all over the place in your attempts to fix your machine.
If you receive the machine as a non-worker in unknown condition then you have to be thorough, logical and systematic in your approach.
Use the Pinwiki as has been suggested.
Start off by ensuring power supply board is putting out correct voltages.
I personally replace 40 pin male and female interconnectors, new ROMs and sockets and also re-pin switch row and column connectors on CPU/driver boards.
Then get a test chip and go from there.
Everyone is willing to help but rarely will anyone be able to diagnose the issue in one sentence
Forget the blanking circuit components to begin with. The blanking issue is probably from other problems with the boards rather than blanking circuit component problems. Been there done that
Again, start with power supply.
Yeah…The easy thing to do is replace all the connectors, replace the ROM’s, replace the sockets, replace ….But I want to find out what exactly is the problem. I have used that scatter fix theory before and when done: Is it working - Yes. What exactly was the problem - No idea.
This game was dead for over 15 years and I had it almost working. Then something went wrong. Was it something I did? Probably. Could it be that starting electronic components after they had been sitting for 15 years caused a problem? I do not know that one.
That is why I am asking very specifically - Could bad solder work on connections 2J8 and 1J2 have caused the boards to lock up?
When I got the game it was completely dead. Replaced all the fuses. Game would start and immediately go into audit mode. None of the attract lights were working. Let me go over what I have done and see if someone can see a potential problem:
1. Game was not retaining audit changes. Battery holder looked bad. Removed battery holder, ordered NVRAM and installed it at IC19 on CPU. Do not know if this works because can not get game to start since installing NVRAM.
2. Attract lights were not working. Replaced PIA III at IC10 and that seemed to fix the problem.
3. I blew up the left kicker. Replaced Q2, Q1 and IC6 and IC8. Replaced coil and diode. Not sure if this works. Did not replace IC9.
4. Lower bumper locks on. Replaced Q4, Q3 and IC6 and IC8. Replaced coil and diode. Not sure if this still locks on.
At this point I could get the game to start in audit mode without the solenoid fuse. All lights and switches worked.
5. Replaced Power Filter Capacitor C15 on DB.
6. Replaced IC7 and IC23 on CPU.
7. Resoldered pins on CPU and DB. All solder looks good and pins look good except that sloppy solder work on 1J2 on the CPU and 2J8 on the DB - Logic Power Input.
8. Replaced large capacitors on Power Supply.
Quoted from The_Great_Man:Game would start and immediately go into audit mode.
The thing that is sad is that *IF* you're going to have issues on a system 3-7 game, this mode is where you want to be. The board is almost working at this point.
It is likely that your scattershot approach is not going to work at this point. You need to do the systematic from zero troubleshooting. It didn't help that you hooked the solenoid voltage to the switch inputs sometimes around between your steps 2 and 3.
Not sure where that scattershot comment comes from. I am still asking a very "specific" question. Could that sloppy solder work on 2J8 and 1J2 cause the boards to lock up? Need someone who has the answer to that question - I do not have it.
Even after blowing up the kicker - The game would start in audit mode without the solenoid fuse - Now it will not start without the solenoid fuse. So that mistake does not affect the situation of the game not starting.
Quoted from The_Great_Man:I have used that scatter fix theory before and when done
Came from you but as 'scatter fix'.
I don't mean to offend, but you can't say what did or did not break the game. Not until it's fixed and you analyze how it was fixed. Please, do the systematic stuff or it will never be fixed. Get the test roms. Get a logic probe. Work through the checklists. Stop looking at separate symptoms and trying to swat those as if they are the cause of everything.
I find it slightly funny that you are asking the collective experience here at pinside for help, and ignoring all that advice and going off on your own tangent.
Problem is - Many "experts on Pinside" want to just revert back and start over. I am not very good but I can tell people to start over and read the troubleshooting guides and replace the pins and replace the... I had this game close to working and I believe that something I did caused the problem I now have. I need someone who has experience and has specific answers - I know those people exist in the Pinside community and I am trying to get to one of them. I AM NOT ignoring all the help and appreciate all the help. I believe Schwaggs has it right and something I did is causing the problem.
Could that sloppy solder work on 2J8 and 1J2 cause the game to lock up?
BTW. Scatter fix is what many "experts" want you to do. Replace all the pins, Replace all the connectors, Replace the ROMS, Replace the sockets, Replace the capacitors. Hopefully after doing all that you will have fixed the problem - But you never will have actually diagnosed what the problem was. I am not doing that but trying to diagnose what the specific problem might be.
Quoted from The_Great_Man:Could that sloppy solder work on 2J8 and 1J2 cause the game to lock up?
You'll know once you clean it up. Probably not if you didn't short anything though.
You actually are ignoring most of the help, by asking for someone who has experience and has specific answers, because when those people give you the benefit of their experience and specific answers, you're ignoring them because it seems like you do not *want* to go back to a known starting point.
In my opinion and based on my experience, when the solenoid bus got cross connected to the switch matrix, all bets are off as to what's damaged. Some chips take overvoltage better than others, and there's no magic answer of when you did THIS, THESE chips are damaged. When you started off with the game going into audits, you likely had a memory protect issue. Pretty easy to fix, relatively speaking. It's either the memory protect circuit or the 5101.
This is where things went south, with the various things and dead ends you have been going down. You need to get it back to the condition you had it in when you got it.... and that means going back to first principles. All chips except microprocessor out, get a logic probe/scope and start seeing if the address bus is cycling. You go up from there.
Scattershot isn't anything other than basically checking the general condition. Say you reseated the 40 pin connected and it had started working.... does that mean you 'fixed' it? No, you actually identified something that might be an issue. It's more of a diagnosis tool. I'd call that more of an operator hack from back in the day.... try these 3 things and if you get it working, go onto the next call.
Shotgunning would be just replacing parts, just because. You're kind of at that point now. For instance the special solenoid circuit you replaced everything but you didn't replace one of the chips, because you didn't have it. Hope that chip didn't turn out to the issue!
What I'm advising to do at this point is get the mpu board to the most basic condition you can, and test things. It's a lot easier to diagnose what's wrong and what should be looked at with less variables. Williams even helps you if you have a scope available by showing you what the signals should look like in their manuals (as do some of the repair guides).
You are looking for a quick fix. There's no longer a quick fix on this boardset.
But after I screwed up the left kicker I could get the game to start in audit mode with the solenoid fuse out. Then I could change audit 18 to 00 and get the game to start with all the lights and switches on but without any solenoids working. So the left kicker problem is not affecting the game starting up and this problem might still exist. And I do have the chip for IC9 - Just did not replace it because I am not sure that it is not working and I do not want to replace things just for the sake of replacing them.
I will accept your answer to my specific question about the sloppy soldering as a No - this is not causing the problem and I will move onto something else. Will be interested to see what a new pair of eyes sees when they look at it this afternoon. Thank you. Now is there a way to check and see if the NVRAM that I received is good - I understand that a lot of them are old and up to 25% can be bad.
Presumably the RAM was tested before you got it. I've never heard that twenty five percent thing that sounds like bullshit. Regardless of when the audit mode stopped coming up you have a dead board now and need to treat it as such which doesn't mean reversing things that were done to it. It means starting over as a dead board.
Just had a pair of expert eyes looking at my boards. All the work I did on the Driver Board is good - that Board seems fine. The CPU Board - Not so fine. All the work I did tested fine which shocked me. She seems to think the problem might be the socket for the 5101 - the middle picture in my previous comment....but really had no idea what it could be. I have purchased 1 hour of diagnostic time to see what can be done...But there are no guarantees.
She looked at my desoldering work and I believe her exact quote was "What are you doing?" I said "I am not very good at desoldering". To which she said "Mistakes are not bad - That is how you learn." Exactly - Make Mistakes - Learn - Keep Going. I watched her desolder and replace the 40 pin female connector in 5 minutes - Would have taken me 3 hours and been a mess. Then watched her remove and replace a socket in 2 minutes - Very impressive. She had a soldering gun with a hole in the tip - I need one of those. So hopefully next week I will have an answer...or maybe not. This stuff is all witchcraft.
I got that 25% number from reading someone on Pinside. Said because the chips were so hard to get - they were using old ones that were up to 10 years old. Pretty sure the one I got is good.
The verdict is in. When I removed IC7 from the CPU Board and replaced it with a socket - I screwed up 3 of the traces and the chip was not working. Although I am not an expert and have been severely criticized - I knew it was something that I did and I did not have to start over. Mistake -Learn - Move On.
Unfortunately for many Pinside "experts" - Everything I did on these boards was correct. My analysis and approach to fixing things were right on. The only mistake I made was that I messed up 3 traces when I was removing IC7 from the CPU Board....Bad soldering equipment and skills. Happy to find out that it is very common for even experts to screw up traces on these boards. The real problem was that the bad traces were hidden under the new socket that I put in for IC7. It took an extra pair of eyes and a magnifying glass to see the problems.
My Analysis is this - Now from someone who has resurrected Williams System 7 boards that were not used for 15 years: DO NOT just start replacing things when you are fixing these boards like the troubleshooting guides and "Pinside experts" would have you do. These boards are not very well made and if you remove sockets and chips and pins and connectors and...You will screw things up more than you will fix things unless you have real good equipment and are real experienced - which most of us are not. And even then you may screw things up. Instead analyze the problem and only replace what you absolutely have to replace. This will keep your hours, costs and possible problems to a minimum. If you listen to everyone saying replace this socket and replace these connectors and replace these chips....You will never get the boards working.
Thanks Schwaggs - You listened all along and knew that it had to be something that I did that caused the problem.
Quoted from The_Great_Man:DO NOT just start replacing things when you are fixing these boards like the troubleshooting guides and "Pinside experts" would have you do.
The fuck? Troubleshooting guides exist to show you exactly how the board works, so you can use the proper tools to isolate the problem and replace only the parts that need to be replaced. I told you at the beginning you needed a logic probe (which would have quickly revealed your solder-related issues) but you said you were unable to use one.
Glad an expert was available to finally fix it for you.
Thanks for your help….I think your language says it all about the “experts.” If you would take the time as I did to review the guides - They say to replace certain connectors sockets and chips BEFORE diagnosing anything because they MAY be a problem. I am saying from experience DO NOT change things that might be a problem - Change things that are a problem. And no one used a logic probe to see my problem - It just took a trained set of eyes to see the very small trace problems.
You need to calm down a little and start accepting the valuable advice being offered to you for FREE!
It is painfully obvious to most reading this thread that you are WAY out of your skill zone with this repair and are basically just destroying the board. You can't even correctly solder a row of connector pins FFS.
Just admit you are out of your depth - be prepared to LEARN some basic electronics before diving into such a complex repair - this board often baffles "experts" with many years of electronics training and experience, why do you think you can just march in and be so proficient at fixing it?
Anyway, I'm done providing any sort of assistance as you seem to know what's best so off you go, knock yourself out.
FWIW the "experts" that advise you to replace pins/sockets etc are suggesting that this is a way of bulletproofing these old boards they are NOT suggesting doing these things will fix YOUR specific problem. You seem to have created lots of them all by yourself!
Quoted from pins4u:You need to calm down a little and start accepting the valuable advice being offered to you for FREE!
It is painfully obvious to most reading this thread that you are WAY out of your skill zone with this repair and are basically just destroying the board. You can't even correctly solder a row of connector pins FFS.
Just admit you are out of your depth - be prepared to LEARN some basic electronics before diving into such a complex repair - this board often baffles "experts" with many years of electronics training and experience, why do you think you can just march in and be so proficient at fixing it?
Anyway, I'm done providing any sort of assistance as you seem to know what's best so off you go, knock yourself out.
FWIW the "experts" that advise you to replace pins/sockets etc are suggesting that this is a way of bulletproofing these old boards they are NOT suggesting doing these things will fix YOUR specific problem. You seem to have created lots of them all by yourself!
Thank you for agreeing not to provide me with any more of your "assistance." You obviously have not read but I have successfully taken boards that were completely dead and restored them to working condition for my friend. I know that I know very little and I also know that I know more than 90% of people that think they know it all. I hope someday you realize that even you can learn.
Oh....and as for what makes me think I "can just march in and be so proficient at fixing it" - I am The_Great_Man!
Thanks to all who actually did help on this successful Pinside journey.
Quoted from pins4u:You need to calm down a little and start accepting the valuable advice being offered to you for FREE!
It is painfully obvious to most reading this thread that you are WAY out of your skill zone with this repair and are basically just destroying the board. You can't even correctly solder a row of connector pins FFS.
Just admit you are out of your depth - be prepared to LEARN some basic electronics before diving into such a complex repair - this board often baffles "experts" with many years of electronics training and experience, why do you think you can just march in and be so proficient at fixing it?
Anyway, I'm done providing any sort of assistance as you seem to know what's best so off you go, knock yourself out.
FWIW the "experts" that advise you to replace pins/sockets etc are suggesting that this is a way of bulletproofing these old boards they are NOT suggesting doing these things will fix YOUR specific problem. You seem to have created lots of them all by yourself!
Quoted from The_Great_Man:Oh....and as for what makes me think I "can just march in and be so proficient at fixing it" - I am The_Great_Man!
Thanks to all who actually did help on this successful Pinside journey.
You should change your name to "Full_Of_Myself"
I have far greater respect for many on this forum than it seems you do. You also have zero idea what my knowledge level is and how much experience I have with pinball machine repair - that suits me just fine. We can all see how much electronics experience and knowledge that you have - ZERO!
Like I said, knock yourself out, you know best, just ask yourself!
Quoted from pins4u:You should change your name to "Full_Of_Myself"
I have far greater respect for many on this forum than it seems you do. You also have zero idea what my knowledge level is and how much experience I have with pinball machine repair - that suits me just fine. We can all see how much electronics experience and knowledge that you have - ZERO!
Like I said, knock yourself out, you know best, just ask yourself!
I also have great respect for many on Pinside who actually do help with assistance. I am smart enough to know that I do not have the expertise of those individuals and for that reason I do not comment and give technical assistance. Then there are "Those" who think they know a lot but really do not - "Those" individuals should KTMS. I think you now where you fit in.
Quoted from The_Great_Man:When I was replacing the large capacitor - C10 - on the power supply, I spilled a small piece of solder - maybe 1/8" x 1/4" on the capacitor. I left it because I was not sure I could remove it. I did not think much of it but maybe that is causing some problems. When I just checked that capacitor with my DMM - I did not get a reading. Any thoughts on that screw up/
[quoted image]
Just getting caught up on this thread.. Getting solder on that cap like that is not a problem. Just be sure to check for other possible areas that may have splashes. You can gently scrape this one off .. make sure power is off and it doesnt fly elsewhere in the machine.
As for your other questions..
Technically you can boot the MPU without the driver board attached, but the stock ROM chips may prevent from getting anything useful out of it.
Additonally, the built-in diagnostics in games of this era are known to be incomplete.. ie a RAM/CMOS test does not test the entire chip, only a few locations within it, and therefore can give false positives.
If you want to eliminate the driver board temporarily from the equation you can disconnect it and then use the Pincoder Adapter/ROMs to test components on the MPU board:
https://pincoder.ca/index.php/2020/07/10/adapter-2020-06-23-0506
You can also download the ROM images and documentation from the Download menu on the main page:
You will find a .txt file for each test/ROM image that shows you how to run the tests.
With your game, it sounds to me like a RAM chip issue. The adapter/ROMs will test both RAM chips individually so you can isolate which one has any issues.
The CMOS/5101 test will test the ENTIRE 5101 (or NVRAM since you have it) and the coin door must be open for this test only.
Now that you have an NVRAM you should use the "clear_cmos" test (with coin door open) to clear out any data in the NVRAM chip, then run the original factory ROM and power on. This will bring you into audiit mode. Power off, then on again. This should bring you to attract mode and you can close the coin door.
Thanks pincoder. I appreciate the help. Game is working ok. Did a lot of fixing and something worked out. Leaned a lot. Could have bought a new PS for $140 but fixed mine instead - Not sure if fixing is still the right way to go on these 40 year old machines. I will certainly use your advice to help with the High Speed I am about to work on. Does your Pincoder Adapter work on System 11 games yet?
In the vast majority of system 3-7 games those sockets on the MPU are the issue and replacing them first and verifying your work by toning out each trace with a DMM is an effective first step in bringing these games back to life.
Of course one would never want to do board work if everything was fully working. But when you have intermittent issues which so many of these games do, changing those key sockets and replacing the 40 pin interconnect is a good place to start.
I am not sure where the friction is coming from - everyone on this thread had the best intention of getting you up an running. Often times retracing your steps to the beginning is the best way to find "where things went wrong". The tech you had did exactly that, started at the beginning found the bad socket and replaced.
The guides work - 100%. I followed them exclusively when I started 22 years ago. They have only become better as more time has passed and people have shared their experiences.
Thanks. Problem is some give terrible advice and if you look at their history - They give terrible advice a lot. Those people should not be giving advice. The experienced person I gave the boards to: Looked at them - Fixed some work that I did - Put them in a game she had and tested them. She said all the work that I did looked great and it is common to mess up a trace on the old boards. That is what she did. She has better eyes than I do. What she understands is this - Making mistakes is part of learning. Some on Pinside are invaluable to the pinball community- Pincoder, Grumpy, etc. - They give incredible advice and when they talk....I listen.
Quoted from The_Great_Man:Thanks pincoder. I appreciate the help. Game is working ok. Did a lot of fixing and something worked out. Leaned a lot. Could have bought a new PS for $140 but fixed mine instead - Not sure if fixing is still the right way to go on these 40 year old machines. I will certainly use your advice to help with the High Speed I am about to work on. Does your Pincoder Adapter work on System 11 games yet?
Glad you got it working. That's always a nice feeling!
I think keeping things as original as possible (with bulletproofing) is always the best. They don't make things like they used to, and the schematics are always around
I do have an Earthshaker (sys11) still sitting in my work area, and what I haven't had in a long time is time to port the usable code and create new code for the games of this era. I hope to have them eventually
Thanks. Took a completely dead game and in 4 weeks got it up and running pretty good. All this while working in a cold garage with very little light and very little experience. Fortunately, there are some good resources and good Pinsiders that help. It can be done. I love the learning experience….Try to do something you have never done - make mistakes - keep trying - more stupid mistakes - give up - try again - somehow get it done. Great experience.
I think at some point the way of fixing these old machines does have to change. They are getting old. The thought of bulletproofing something that old is probably not practical. What was a good idea when the machine was 20 years old might not be good for that machine when it is 40 years old. Replacement of boards instead of repairing of boards will at some point become the way to go. It will be the economical way to go. I bet my time on this project was good for about $5/hour. Spoke with someone today who fixes pinball machines for a living and she is great. Could not figure out why a CPU was not working. She had had enough troubleshooting. Put in 25 Amp fuses - Things blew up. She fixed those things and CPU works. That is good engineering to me and very hard to teach.
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