(Topic ID: 217492)

Williams System 7 (Black Knight) Switch Matrix Row Short

By WonderMellon

5 years ago


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  • 28 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 months ago by snoutmeat
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#1 5 years ago

I picked up a BK as a project pin a few weeks back. When I walk through the switch test it tells me that 39, 31, 23, 15, and 7 switches are closed. I looked it up and that is row 7 of the switch matrix. A quick Google search brought me to the PinWiki for Williams. Following those instructions I pulled J2 and J3 from the driver board. Even with the connectors out, every switch on row 7 is showing closed. I have a logic probe on it's way to me now, but I am thinking that 1 or both of the switch row IC's are fried. They have F4049BPC stamped on them. Can someone point me to a place where I can order replacements?

This should prove interesting as I am at the very early learning curve with my soldering skills.

#2 5 years ago

It'll most likely only be one of the ICs, or the PIA. What you want is a 4049. Great plains electronics should have them, PIAs, sockets for both, or any regular electronics site like digikey will have 4049s as well

#3 5 years ago

Thank you very much! I see 2 versions of the chip are available. One indicates buffered and the other is unbuffered. I don't see anything on the chip or schematic that mentions which to use. I assume I have to use 1 type. Do you know which type I should get and, more importantly, how would I be able to get that information for myself in the future?

#4 5 years ago

I'm not completely sure of the difference myself, though I'd lean towards the former as it doesn't have any letters in between the numbers. the HC letters mean something about the speed and power of the data lines. There's also HCT, LS, F, etc, but basically you need to compare the datasheets and know what the numbers mean. I'd just email GPE and ask what you need for this application, he should be able to tell you

#5 5 years ago

Digging a bit futher in the PinWiki, I found this:

Two 7406 (Hex Inverter / Buffer with open collector HV outputs) is used to 'drive' the Columns.
A 7406 or 74LS06 will work and are common parts.
Two 4049 (or 14049 "CMOS Hex Inverter / Buffer) is used to 'read' the Rows.
The MC14049 or CD4049UBCN are common examples, although any 14049 or 4049 14-leg DIP will work.

It looks like it is unbuffered. I haven't ordered yet, so I will have to post back when I get things installed and working.

#6 5 years ago

Ok, new chips (and sockets) are on the way, but before I start surgery on the board I would like to verify the chips are bad.

I picked up a logic probe and I read through terryb post on using it. The PDF manual has the schematics and it took me a while to find what I was looking for. The schematic looked like the switch matrix was going directly into the PIA, but there is a hand written 4049 or 7406 at the beginning of the line. What it doesn't say is the input or output voltage. How can I tell which voltage to apply to hook up to the logic probe for input and output of the chips?

#7 5 years ago
Quoted from WonderMellon:

Ok, new chips (and sockets) are on the way, but before I start surgery on the board I would like to verify the chips are bad.
I picked up a logic probe and I read through terryb post on using it. The PDF manual has the schematics and it took me a while to find what I was looking for. The schematic looked like the switch matrix was going directly into the PIA, but there is a hand written 4049 or 7406 at the beginning of the line. What it doesn't say is the input or output voltage. How can I tell which voltage to apply to hook up to the logic probe for input and output of the chips?

It's all going to be 5v logic on this board. Most chips operate at a single voltage level, especially logic chips, so just look at what voltage is powering the chip

#8 5 years ago

Thanks for the information. I found 5V and hit the 4 chips with the logic probe with the game in switch test mode, while writing down the results. When I tried to decipher what the data was telling me, I noticed that I had forgotten to reattach the switch columns and switch rows connector. Does this invalidate the probe results?

For reference, here are the results of the 2 4049 chips:

Upper Chip

Pin 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
Result H L H H 0 L H L H L 0 H 0 H L 0

Lower Chip
Pin 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
Result H L H L 0 L H L H L 0 H 0 H L 0

They are the same, with the exception of Pin4. Based on what I was reading, I was expecting these to be constantly pulsing. When it comes down to it though, I did not have the connectors attached, and I still do not know what I am doing.

#9 5 years ago

The 4049 reads the signal coming back from the matrix, so without the connectors you're just going to get a high on all the inputs and a low on all the outputs (its an inverter so).

#10 5 years ago

Thanks, that makes total sense. I used a jumper on all the row inputs and traced the signals back to the chips. Row 7 traces to pin 7 on the lower 4049. When I jump the input pin, pin 6 on the 4049 goes hi. I assume that means the 4049 is working. I then traced pin 6 back to the PIA II and it traces to pin 3 on the PIA II. Jumping the input on row 7 will put pin 3 hi, which I assume is what it is supposed to do.

I have no idea if PIA pin 3 drives an output elsewhere on the chip. Does verifying that the signal is making it to the PIA imply the PIA is bad? I am not sure where to go from here.

#11 5 years ago

Each line goes only from a PIA pin to a pin of the 4049.

Looking at the schematics, pin 7 of IC15 (the lower 4049 I assume) goes to 2J3-8, which it says is row 2, not 7. Unless you're just counting the other way?

The output of the 4049 should always be the opposite of the input. The pull up resistors (eg R78) default the input to high, meaning the output is low until a low input comes in via the jumper. What are you jumpering from when you jumper the row inputs? The column? ground?

PIA pin 3 is read by the CPU to tell whether the switch in that row is closed or not. If you're sure you've got your input pins right, and you can see the signal going into the PIA moving, but the row isn't reading, then the PIA is most likely bad.

#12 5 years ago

Damnit, you are right! I did it backwards. Well at least I know row 2 works.

I'll get everything setup again and test row 7 next.

DOH!

#13 5 years ago

Ok. I did the test again; correctly this time I hope. The trace back to the PIA seemed ok. When I tested the jumper, the signal would change as I expected. Row 7 traces back to pin 8 on the PIA. What was interesting is pin 8 was always high. I tested the trace where the socket met the board and the signal was low, but when I tested the pin on the chip, the signal was high. I am not sure how that happens.

#15 5 years ago

Yes. The pin of the chip read high, but if I test where the socket goes into the board for that pin it reads low.

#16 5 years ago
Quoted from WonderMellon:

Yes. The pin of the chip read high, but if I test where the socket goes into the board for that pin it reads low.

Is the leg of the chip perhaps broken off or the socket not soldered correctly? All those things should be connected together and showing the same signal, so if they're not there must be a break somewhere

#17 5 years ago

Ok, I took the chip out of the socket and used the DMM to test continuity. It does not look like the socket pin is in connection with the trace. The chip legs look fine. My concern is that the chip leg was reading a high. It is my understanding that these pins should be reading the input of the rows matrix. I would be expecting the pin to be either low or 0 signal, not high. If this pin is reading high, am I at risk of damaging the 4049 chip or anything else "upstream" of the PIA pin?

#18 5 years ago

Not really much risk. Try resoldering the socket. Or swapping the pia with another.

#19 5 years ago

It looked like the socket for that pin was broken. With the chip out, I could look down and see the board. I have removed the socket, but have not yet put the new one in.

There was already a jumper from a missing trace. It looks like the one below it also fell off. This is still new to me, but is this what the board should look like after removing the socket?

36CF2274-3011-4ED0-940F-CBFA613507AC (resized).jpeg36CF2274-3011-4ED0-940F-CBFA613507AC (resized).jpeg9F49AA54-7F06-4A33-8CCC-F705B2BE9583 (resized).jpeg9F49AA54-7F06-4A33-8CCC-F705B2BE9583 (resized).jpeg
#20 5 years ago

Done well, you wouldn't see those darker brown spots on the pads, just the nice silvery color. I can't tell from the picture whether that's copper (under the silver) or something else, but if it's copper that's still okay, just might be a bit harder to solder to.

On the back it looks like two pads have fallen off. That probably means more are damaged. There's a little metal ring that goes between the pads on the front and back. If that's missing then a trace on the front won't be connected to the trace on the back. Need to make sure to put enough solder on that it reaches both sides.

What pin #s are those two that have lost their pad?

#21 5 years ago

They are 15 and 14, but on the back of the board.

#22 5 years ago

So it looks like 14 is supposed to go to IC18, pin 1 (like that jumper does) and 15 is supposed to go to IC18, pin 5? It looks like the traces for both of these are actually on the top of the board, so if the trace itself is fine you should be able to just solder them on the top and not need the jumpers. Check continuity from the pads on the top to those pins on IC18 and see if the traces are fine. Since two traces are already bad, there's a good chance more are, including the problem you're having. I'd recommend when installing the new socket to make sure to try to flow the solder through the board so it goes on both sides of the pad, and check continuity from every single pin of the socket to the part it's connected to on the board, resoldering or adding jumpers as necessary. It may help to use SIP sockets instead of a standard DIP socket as they're easier to see the solder on the top side

#23 5 years ago

Thanks for your help. This will take me a while so I will post back in a few days when I get through it all.

#24 5 years ago

I put in a new socket and verified the traced were connected to the board. It took a few tries and it is not pretty, but the connections are made. When I replaced the PIA chip and went in to test mode, I got the exact same issue. Row 7 was showing closed. Just to verify if the circuit would work, I took a jumper and touched the pin from the 7049 to Pin 8 of the PIA directly. As soon as I did, the game stopped showing row 7 as closed. When I removed the jumper it would revert back to the incorrect behavior. I got someone to help and I then used the jumper, put the logic probe on the pin and also jumped the row input pin on the board. I have no idea what happened, but it almost seemed like doing that caused the PIA to remember what it was supposed to do. Pin 8 went from incorrectly reading normally high to reading normally low. Removing the jumper to pin 8 showed no closed switches. When I replaced the column and row connectors all the switches tested fine. The game has been running great for about 2 days now.

It bothers me that I have no idea what "fixed" the issue, but I am glad that it is working.

#25 5 years ago

I'd replace that PIA to be safe, or at least have a spare on hand.

#26 5 years ago

Good idea. I grabbed a few spare inverters, but not the PIA. I'll have to find some. Thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it.

#27 5 years ago
Quoted from WonderMellon:

Good idea. I grabbed a few spare inverters, but not the PIA. I'll have to find some. Thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it.

I sadly don't really know of a good source. I have a big stack from dead boards I've attempted to repair to tide me, and usually it grows faster than I need them :/

5 years later
#28 9 months ago

...so how did this story end? It's like checking out a book from the library and discovering that the last page has been ripped out! I want resolution, if only for selfish reasons (I'm having similar issues with MY Black Knight).

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